The Spurs thread | 2016-2017 season | Serious thread - wummers/derailers will be threadbanned

Will Spurs finish in top 4 in the upcoming season?

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They look ok. Didn't have Benteke at the time though, and looked shit at the time. You won 1-0 at home, and 1-0 at home vs. Sunderland too.. I don't think you look that consistent, but a win is a win, and your defense look to be the real deal. And I agree.. 4-0 at Stoke was an impressive result too.

Still, like you say, it's early days. You're doing well, and I understand your optimism, but I'm not sure yet, how strong you are. If I were to predict top4 right now, you would be in it, but it changes all the time.

The truth is we struggled a bit against Palace, what I'm happy with is Poch is notorious for destroying his players in pre-season and we had the most players at the Euros. Meaning we were effectively doing our pre-season during the early weeks and we looked extremely tired against Everton, Palace and Liverpool but picked up what we needed to get some momentum.

Sunderland was the epitome of a 1-0 massacre and Middlesboro away should have been 3 or 4 nil at half-time.

We are playing well now but our big challenge is going to be consistency of performances, can we do it week on week and not throw away some ridiculous points like we did last season.

Such a long way to go and at this stage I would still be happy with another top 4 finish, if we can do that it's another building block in place.
 
They've been brilliant for the past year. Obviously I would not classify them as a top team either, I don't think any Premier League team currently is truly a top team (maybe City at their best but even that is a push), a top team has to actually do something of note in Europe and be consistently good, but they're certainly as good as anyone on their day and I'd probably say that they have the second best team in England. Quite remarkable job by Pochettino, not only he has managed to make them a proper top 4 team. They're a much better team than us for sure.

I would be worried about squad depth if I were them.
 
I think his logic is utterly flawed basing a teams strength on reputation rather than results.

But 1 year won't make you a top team. It's the consistent results. Atletico have been superb in La Liga as well as Champions league. Check out the quality of teams they beat to reach 2 finals in 3 years.

I don't consider Dortmund as a top team but Atletico are easily among the top 5 teams in the world. Madrid, Barca and Bayern and the only teams I would say are better, even then they beat Barca and Bayern in champions league KOs.
 
Yep, two major worries for Spurs are probably running out of steam too early and injuries. Their backup players in some positions aren't too great.
 
If Pochettino wins the title with Spurs at some point, is it safe to say that he would have surpassed Simeone's achievement with Atletico Madrid. Beating Mourinho, Guardiola, Wenger, Klopp and Conte is a ridiculously remarkable feat.
 
Well Pochettino has managed 83 games for Spurs in the PL. Whats interesting is this stat:

In the last 100 PL Games Spurs have conceded 117 goals.
In the last 75 PL Games Spurs have conceded 80 goals.
In the last 50 PL Games Spurs have conceded 44 goals.
In the last 25 PL Games Spurs have conceded 22 goals.

So to make sense of that let me put them in groups of 25:

19/01/14 - 18/10/14 ¦ 37 goals conceded
26/10/14 - 19/4/15 ¦ 36 goals conceded
25/4/15 - 13/1/16 ¦ 22 goals conceded
13/1/16 - 2/10/16 ¦ 22 goals conceded

So they average less than 1 goal per game over the last 50 games. Very impressive.
 
Well Pochettino has managed 83 games for Spurs in the PL. Whats interesting is this stat:

In the last 100 PL Games Spurs have conceded 117 goals.
In the last 75 PL Games Spurs have conceded 80 goals.
In the last 50 PL Games Spurs have conceded 44 goals.
In the last 25 PL Games Spurs have conceded 22 goals.

So to make sense of that let me put them in groups of 25:

19/01/14 - 18/10/14 ¦ 37 goals conceded
26/10/14 - 19/4/15 ¦ 36 goals conceded
25/4/15 - 13/1/16 ¦ 22 goals conceded
13/1/16 - 2/10/16 ¦ 22 goals conceded

So they average less than 1 goal per game over the last 50 games. Very impressive.

38 conceded in the 45 PL games that Alderweireld has played in. That includes the 5 at Newcastle last day when we'd basically thrown the towel in.

This is a big worry for me, if we lost Toby, would he play Dier there or would he turn to 18 year old CCV who I believe is going to be a star for us but at 18 will make mistakes.
 
Continuing on from this...

19/01/14 - 18/10/14 ¦ 39 goals scored
26/10/14 - 19/4/15 ¦ 43 goals scored
25/4/15 - 13/1/16 ¦ 39 goals scored
13/1/16 - 2/10/16 ¦ 47 goals scored

So the goal difference is the following:

19/01/14 - 18/10/14 ¦ +2 GD
26/10/14 - 19/4/15 ¦ +7 GD
25/4/15 - 13/1/16 ¦ +17 GD
13/1/16 - 2/10/16 ¦ +25 GD

A constant improvement in goal difference. Turning a fairly shite defense into an excellent defense while also improving on goals scored.
 
38 conceded in the 45 PL games that Alderweireld has played in. That includes the 5 at Newcastle last day when we'd basically thrown the towel in.

This is a big worry for me, if we lost Toby, would he play Dier there or would he turn to 18 year old CCV who I believe is going to be a star for us but at 18 will make mistakes.

Yup, it would be a concern. But at the same time, you're coping ok without Kane who everyone said would result in you not scoring. So I dunno, I think you'd cope ok.
 
I think the only real problem Spurs have, like Liverpool & Man City, is that their managers like to flog their players to half to death, & it will be interesting how this effects them as the season gets to the new year & beyond. Both Liverpool & Spurs were affected like this last season, falling over the line. The fact Liverpool haven't got European duties may help them.
 
If Pochettino wins the title with Spurs at some point, is it safe to say that he would have surpassed Simeone's achievement with Atletico Madrid. Beating Mourinho, Guardiola, Wenger, Klopp and Conte is a ridiculously remarkable feat.
Nope, he wouldn't. Winning Premier League with Tottenham is easier when the competition is clearly not the very top tier like Barcelona and Real Madrid were. People were not expecting anyone outside of big 2 to win it for decades and he went and won it in a season when both were quite strong, with Atletico.

I know it's fancy to spout nonsense about PL being the NBA of football but none of PL teams are the same quality as Barca and Real, so effectively you have an easier task because you might not need to be consistently amazing. Leicester won it last season.
 
Nope, he wouldn't. Winning Premier League with Tottenham is easier when the competition is clearly not the very top tier like Barcelona and Real Madrid were. People were not expecting anyone outside of big 2 to win it for decades and he went and won it in a season when both were quite strong, with Atletico.

I know it's fancy to spout nonsense about PL being the NBA of football but none of PL teams are the same quality as Barca and Real, so effectively you have an easier task because you might not need to be consistently amazing. Leicester won it last season.

Mourinho, Klopp, Wenger have all been last season here, Conte so far hasn't set the world alight and is a newcomer after all, it's only Pep who's the new big thing here and as you said Leicester won it last season.

Beating a teams with Messi and Ronaldo in La Liga is a far superior achievement. Not like we should worry Poch wins the league with Spurs though.
 
Simeone’s achievements go far beyond winning the title. Unlike Leicester winning it, it wasn’t an on-off. He is consistently challenging in all competitions and established Atletico as a top 3-4 team in the world.
 
CSKA Moscow at Wembley in December now sold out as well.

Waiting list for ST's has now moved over 60,000 on top of the 24,000 we currently have.

Levy might be thinking he should be building a bigger stadium!
 
Simeone’s achievements go far beyond winning the title. Unlike Leicester winning it, it wasn’t an on-off. He is consistently challenging in all competitions and established Atletico as a top 3-4 team in the world.

Yeah, 2013/14 was incredible in itself but his consistency in keeping them up there and the almost absurd defensive unit he's assembled is magnificent. I like Pochettino but winning the title wouldn't have a patch on what Simeone's done, unless he runs away with it and wins a quadruple or something, CL included. Which won't happen.
 
I think the only real problem Spurs have, like Liverpool & Man City, is that their managers like to flog their players to half to death, & it will be interesting how this effects them as the season gets to the new year & beyond. Both Liverpool & Spurs were affected like this last season, falling over the line. The fact Liverpool haven't got European duties may help them.
People really need to check their facts before making claims instead of just repeating Caftard rhetoric. Liverpool finished last season with 7 wins 5 draws and 2 defeats in their last 14 games. Which included putting out numerous weakened sides with U21 and squad players due to EL prioritisation. Hardly 'falling over the line'.
 
Simeone’s achievements go far beyond winning the title. Unlike Leicester winning it, it wasn’t an on-off. He is consistently challenging in all competitions and established Atletico as a top 3-4 team in the world.
Yep. You would have to worry about the effect of losing him if you were an AM fan.
 
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CSKA Moscow at Wembley in December now sold out as well.

Waiting list for ST's has now moved over 60,000 on top of the 24,000 we currently have.

Levy might be thinking he should be building a bigger stadium!

I don't think you can read much into these figures. Bronze members and higher are automatically put on the waiting list but I doubt even half of them intend to have a season ticket and the CL games at Wembley have that novelty factor(and cheaper tickets) that other games don't. We didn't sell out for Gillingham at home the other week and I can't see 61k turning up to see us play Hull or Burnley.
 
I don't think you can read much into these figures. Bronze members and higher are automatically put on the waiting list but I doubt even half of them intend to have a season ticket and the CL games at Wembley have that novelty factor(and cheaper tickets) that other games don't. We didn't sell out for Gillingham at home the other week and I can't see 61k turning up to see us play Hull or Burnley.

Did we not? I suddenly become free on that night about 3 days before and there was not a single ticket available for the Gillingham match either on the website or when I called the ticket office too.

I don't think we'll necessarily sell out the stadium for every match but I think levy will likely realise he can't keep the same ticket prices with a stadium that's almost double the current size.

I reckon the average attendance will settle around the mid 50s. We'll have to see though.
 
Game week 7: at this stage we have improved on each season Pochettino has been with us. Each season we have conceded fewer goals.

2014/15 - WWLDLDW - 9 goals for, 7 against, goal difference +3 - 6th
2015/16 - LDDDWWW - 9 goals for, 5 against, goal difference +3 - 5th
2016/17 - DWDWWWW - 12 goals for, 3 against, goal difference +9 - 2nd
 
Game week 7: at this stage we have improved on each season Pochettino has been with us. Each season we have conceded fewer goals.

2014/15 - WWLDLDW - 9 goals for, 7 against, goal difference +3 - 6th
2015/16 - LDDDWWW - 9 goals for, 5 against, goal difference +3 - 5th
2016/17 - DWDWWWW - 12 goals for, 3 against, goal difference +9 - 2nd

You are improving under him and that's good to see because the overall quality of the league gets better. The best thing about your team is that it is relatively young and most of the players will get better over the next few years.
 
Game week 7: at this stage we have improved on each season Pochettino has been with us. Each season we have conceded fewer goals.

2014/15 - WWLDLDW - 9 goals for, 7 against, goal difference +3 - 6th
2015/16 - LDDDWWW - 9 goals for, 5 against, goal difference +3 - 5th
2016/17 - DWDWWWW - 12 goals for, 3 against, goal difference +9 - 2nd

That doesn't take quality of opposition into account, but you guys won convincingly against City.

Of course, league titles aren't won in this timeframe, but Poch has done a great job.
 
If Pochettino wins the title with Spurs at some point, is it safe to say that he would have surpassed Simeone's achievement with Atletico Madrid. Beating Mourinho, Guardiola, Wenger, Klopp and Conte is a ridiculously remarkable feat.
:lol:
 
..on a more serious note, as much as I admire Pochettino I think they are still lacking some top quality players to be a truly top side even to win the premier league let alone to compete with Real/Barca/Bayern.. some of the signings are just underwhelming... Janssen, Wanyama, Son etc.. I mean theyre all great players but just about "Spurs" level would be squad players maximum in top teams and they certainly need some more quality to raise their level to win the title
 
What's the comparison to last season equivalent fixtures?
Team, this seasons result, last seasons result
Everton A, 1-1, 1-1
Palace H, 1-0, 1-0
Liverpool H, 1-1, 0-0
Stoke A, 4-0, 4-0
Sunderland H, 1-0, 4-1
Middlesbrough A, 2-1, 3-0 (I compared this with Norwich, as they were the 2nd worst team in the PL and Middlesbrough were the 2nd best team in the Championship)
Man City H, 2-0, 4-1

Very surprised at how similar the results were, points are exactly the same when compared.
 
..on a more serious note, as much as I admire Pochettino I think they are still lacking some top quality players to be a truly top side even to win the premier league let alone to compete with Real/Barca/Bayern.. some of the signings are just underwhelming... Janssen, Wanyama, Son etc.. I mean theyre all great players but just about "Spurs" level would be squad players maximum in top teams and they certainly need some more quality to raise their level to win the title
After what Leicester did last season we can't really argue over quality of players anymore. A good squad helps for injuries but a good spirit of togetherness goes a long way
 
After what Leicester did last season we can't really argue over quality of players anymore. A good squad helps for injuries but a good spirit of togetherness goes a long way
agree but this happens once in 50 years, one thing is about the quality in the league and second one is the quality in tournaments ie. champions league to beat the best sides in the world...
 
..on a more serious note, as much as I admire Pochettino I think they are still lacking some top quality players to be a truly top side even to win the premier league let alone to compete with Real/Barca/Bayern.. some of the signings are just underwhelming... Janssen, Wanyama, Son etc.. I mean theyre all great players but just about "Spurs" level would be squad players maximum in top teams and they certainly need some more quality to raise their level to win the title

The players you've mentioned - and Sissoko - are squad players in the Spurs team, or at least Son was been until his recent good form has earned him a slot in the starting XI, which he'll probably keep unless and until his form drops away. Wanyama has also been starting games, but it remains to be seen if it'll stay that way now that Dier has returned from injury.

As I said in the summer, Spurs didn't especially need to strengthen their first XI, because they would likely only get better anyway due their young average age. So we concentrated on improving the squad depth (and bringing 2 or 3 of the more promising youth players into the senior squad), which I think we've done, and can now field a pretty decent 2nd XI.

You say we lack some top quality players, but I regard at least 4 of our entire back 5 as being top quality (Vertonghen makes up for being a bit less so because he gels so well with Alderweireld). I also regard the Dembele of last season (and hopefully he'll repeat that form this time around), plus Eriksen, Alli and Kane as all being top quality. That's 8 of our first XI, with the rest of our first XI being pretty good.

Of course this begs the question, how is "top quality" defined? If you are meaning players who would find a place in any starting XI in the world, then that would be a ridiculously high barrier. Or if you are meaning players who would find a place in some top team or other, then that depends on which clubs are defined as having a "top team" and what players they already have in each respective position, but I'm sure that some Spurs players are better than their equivalent in Man. City or PSG or Juve (for example) and vice-versa.
 
The players you've mentioned - and Sissoko - are squad players in the Spurs team, or at least Son was been until his recent good form has earned him a slot in the starting XI, which he'll probably keep unless and until his form drops away. Wanyama has also been starting games, but it remains to be seen if it'll stay that way now that Dier has returned from injury.

As I said in the summer, Spurs didn't especially need to strengthen their first XI, because they would likely only get better anyway due their young average age. So we concentrated on improving the squad depth (and bringing 2 or 3 of the more promising youth players into the senior squad), which I think we've done, and can now field a pretty decent 2nd XI.

You say we lack some top quality players, but I regard at least 4 of our entire back 5 as being top quality (Vertonghen makes up for being a bit less so because he gels so well with Alderweireld). I also regard the Dembele of last season (and hopefully he'll repeat that form this time around), plus Eriksen, Alli and Kane as all being top quality. That's 8 of our first XI, with the rest of our first XI being pretty good.

Of course this begs the question, how is "top quality" defined? If you are meaning players who would find a place in any starting XI in the world, then that would be a ridiculously high barrier. Or if you are meaning players who would find a place in some top team or other, then that depends on which clubs are defined as having a "top team" and what players they already have in each respective position, but I'm sure that some Spurs players are better than their equivalent in Man. City or PSG or Juve (for example) and vice-versa.

The question is top quality compared to what?

If it's compared to players in this league then we do have top quality players.

If it's compared to top quality in Spain and Bayern then we have Alderweireld but nobody else in the PL has more than 1 or 2 either, even City probably only have Aguero and De Bruyne at that level.
 
Who cares about top quality at this stage of the club's cycle anyways? Spurs can neither afford nor attract the so called big names at this stage, that comes with time. At this point of time, it is much more important to have a manager who gets the team playing at a level higher than its sum of parts and Spurs have that. I doubt they care that its the lamelas if this world performing for them rather than a Robben. That will come with time.
 
Who cares about top quality at this stage of the club's cycle anyways? Spurs can neither afford nor attract the so called big names at this stage, that comes with time. At this point of time, it is much more important to have a manager who gets the team playing at a level higher than its sum of parts and Spurs have that. I doubt they care that its the lamelas if this world performing for them rather than a Robben. That will come with time.

It's not just money that attracts big players, it's status. To have that you will need to win the EPL, the CL or Europa, or at least be a very serious candidate to do so. And you'll need to be in that position for several seasons. If I was a big name player Spurs would be sixth on my list of Premier League clubs I would want to join.
 
It's not just money that attracts big players, it's status. To have that you will need to win the EPL, the CL or Europa, or at least be a very serious candidate to do so. And you'll need to be in that position for several seasons. If I was a big name player Spurs would be sixth on my list of Premier League clubs I would want to join.

Do 'big name' players guarantee success now? Have I missed something in the last few seasons?

In the last few years Spurs have had the likes Bale, Modric, Kane, Alli in our team - I'd argue we have had and continue to have our share of 'big name' players - they may not come 'big name' but they can become 'big name' here.
 
It's not just money that attracts big players, it's status. To have that you will need to win the EPL, the CL or Europa, or at least be a very serious candidate to do so. And you'll need to be in that position for several seasons. If I was a big name player Spurs would be sixth on my list of Premier League clubs I would want to join.

We might be 6th on your list but it's different attractions for different players. It might crush you to accept it but there are players that would prefer to play for Spurs than the likes of the Manchester clubs and Liverpool, such is the draw of living in and around London.

Each and every player be they a big name or a small name will be motivated by different things.

What we have in Poch is a manager who wants to attract or bring through players who will improve how the team can perform in his system. There are other PL managers and one I can think of in particular who just buy as many 'top players' as they can and then hope that they are good enough to consistently overcome the opposition.
 
It's not just money that attracts big players, it's status. To have that you will need to win the EPL, the CL or Europa, or at least be a very serious candidate to do so. And you'll need to be in that position for several seasons. If I was a big name player Spurs would be sixth on my list of Premier League clubs I would want to join.

Why do Spurs even need "big players" (whoever these are supposed to be) when we already have several players who are either the best in their position in the Prem or close to it?
 
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Why do Spurs even need "big players" (whoever these are supposed to be) when we have already have several players who are either the best in their position in the Prem or close to it?

Exactly, you don't. Leicester proved that. Costa Rica proved it in the World Cup, Iceland proved it in the Euros.

Big players help more often with moments of inspiration but they aren't the secret success for a winning formula.
 
We might be 6th on your list but it's different attractions for different players. It might crush you to accept it but there are players that would prefer to play for Spurs than the likes of the Manchester clubs and Liverpool, such is the draw of living in and around London.

Each and every player be they a big name or a small name will be motivated by different things.

What we have in Poch is a manager who wants to attract or bring through players who will improve how the team can perform in his system. There are other PL managers and one I can think of in particular who just buy as many 'top players' as they can and then hope that they are good enough to consistently overcome the opposition.

Unfortunately this opinion isn't backed up by any actual data. I'm happy to hear some actual examples of player's that have gone to Spurs when the Manchester clubs have been in for them as well, promising a similar role? In fact I'm happy to hear of any player that has chosen a London club over a similarly attractive club offering similar wages elsewhere in the Country?

Spurs have one main thing to offer player's over and above the teams that are more attractive than them: guaranteed playing time. Some young player's particularly will see that their career trajectory is better if they go to team like Spurs who guarantee playing time and then 3-5 years later if/when they develop into a truly top class player they move on to one of the more attractive clubs.

If a player wanted to play in a nice location, they wouldn't pick London or Manchester. They'd pick cities of culture in Italy or France, or the warm weather of Spain. Foreign player's come to England primarily for the wages we offer and secondarily for the chance to win trophies. On both of these counts Spurs are way down the list in terms of salary offered and way down the list in terms of the last time they won a trophy.

Why do Spurs even need "big players" (whoever these are supposed to be) when we have already have several players who are either the best in their position in the Prem or close to it?

You're in the process of developing a few "big player's" like Kane and Alli. The question is whether Spurs will ever be able to match their ambitions (in terms of trophies and salary) if their current performance stay the same or improve. If you can't attract them, why would you be able to keep them?
 
It's not just money that attracts big players, it's status. To have that you will need to win the EPL, the CL or Europa, or at least be a very serious candidate to do so. And you'll need to be in that position for several seasons. If I was a big name player Spurs would be sixth on my list of Premier League clubs I would want to join.
That's precisely what "neither afford nor attract" meant. Afford in terms of wages/fee and attract in terms of being a successful club that wins things.
 
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