The Spurs thread | 2016-2017 season | Serious thread - wummers/derailers will be threadbanned

Will Spurs finish in top 4 in the upcoming season?

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acnumber9 said:
You're wrong then. There's the most recent example. There have been others. Some of us have the benefit, if you can call it that, of having read his nonsense for years. Back in the day trends of where teams finished didn't matter when it came to predicting that Utd would easily finish above Utd. Now it's all the rage for him. Then last night you had him going on about Pogba's fee and net spend and then saying meanwhile football will be played on the pitch. Spot the hypocrisy?
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Agree with everything you said. Net spend is apparently rubbish, anyway.
"Despite what you may have heard, “net spend” is completely irrelevant to how big clubs do business and is not something they consider when calculating player costs".
Read more: http://thesetpieces.com/features/transfer-window-myth-busting/#ixzz4G4vTNXHg
 
I think the term "net spend" is probably confusing and would be better termed as "value on the pitch". If a club buys a player for 40 mill, regardless of the club's accounting procedures, that player at that moment is deemed to have a value of 40 mill. If at the same time the club sells a player for 20 mill, the value on the pitch (i.e. "net spend") has increased by 20 mill.
 
jungledrums said:
Glaston is the master of the straw man argument. He ignores a person's actual point of view and replaces it with some distorted version of that point of view, so that it becomes easier for him to argue against.

Example: In response to a poster stating that Pogba was the highest rated player in serie A, Glaston ignores that and instead targets Lucas Biglia, a player that has not once been mentioned in this discussion.
"Wow ... a whole 0.38 rating more than Lucas Biglia (for example). That would make him 5.1% better than Biglia if my maths serve me well.

So, since you're so into Pogba-justifying stats, does that make Biglia 94.9% world class, or worth 94.9% of £100m? I guess it must.

Meanhile, back in the world of football as played not on paper, but on actual football pitches ..." @GlastonSpur

It's why you can't have honest rational debate with him. There are many decent Spurs posters in here, but Glaston stinks the space up unfortunately. If people want actual Spurs debate, this is not the place for it.
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Not true. I didn't ignore Pogba's being the highest rated in Serie A. I compared it relation to another example player (Biglia) in the same table - I could have chosen several others - to show that Pogba's stats rating in that table is only marginally higher than several other players who are not hailed as "world class" and not the subject of £100m bids from United.

In other words, using that stats table to justify Pogba's alleged world class status is a pretty thin argument.
 
Vicar of Dibbly said:
I think the term "net spend" is probably confusing and would be better termed as "value on the pitch". If a club buys a player for 40 mill, regardless of the club's accounting procedures, that player at that moment is deemed to have a value of 40 mill. If at the same time the club sells a player for 20 mill, the value on the pitch (i.e. "net spend") has increased by 20 mill.
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On the pitch though it won't matter whether he was £80m or £100m. The performances will be the same. The fee being paid doesn't just consider performances anymore. Utd are having to pay a premium as we often do. We were being ridiculed last year for the price paid for Martial and now we have a great young player that will either be likely sold at a profit or get a lot of good years from hopefully. Nobody cares about the price anymore.
 
acnumber9 said:
You're wrong then. There's the most recent example. There have been others. Some of us have the benefit, if you can call it that, of having read his nonsense for years. Back in the day trends of where teams finished didn't matter when it came to predicting that Utd would easily finish above Utd. Now it's all the rage for him. Then last night you had him going on about Pogba's fee and net spend and then saying meanwhile football will be played on the pitch. Spot the hypocrisy?
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Actually, the recent example you've quoted says "Liverpool or United" for 4th place, and then I say (concerning all the predictions) "This may change before the window is nearly closed and the season about to kick off".

I faced the same old nonsensical tirades when I predicted that Spurs would finish above United. I was "delusional", United's spending power blah blah blah.

The same thing occurred when I said that LvG would be sacked before Pochettino ever would be ... and there are several more examples where that comes from.

The truth is that a fair few players signed by United are hailed on here as world class or world class prospects, only for reality to bite. I can remember, for example, when the RB Rafael was given this treatment. There is usually an over-rating euphoria before the let-down: Zaha, Depay, Jones, Kagawa, Schweinsteiger etc etc.

But when Spurs players are involved, it's the opposite story: Walker is shit, Rose is shit, Lamela's a flop, Kane's a one-season wonder etc etc.

There is very little balance, and the same thing is now happening with regard to Pogba, except with bells on. Yes, he's a good player and yes he will improve United, but the absurd accolades are, as usual, way over the top.
 
GlastonSpur said:
Actually, the recent example you've quoted says "Liverpool or United" for 4th place, and then I say (concerning all the predictions) "This may change before the window is nearly closed and the season about to kick off".

I faced the same old nonsensical tirades when I predicted that Spurs would finish above United. I was "delusional", United's spending power blah blah blah.

The same thing occurred when I said that LvG would be sacked before Pochettino ever would be ... and there several more examples where that comes from.

The truth is that a fair few players signed by United are hailed on here as world class or world class prospects, only for reality to bite. I can remember, for example, when the RB Rafael was given this treatment. There is usually an over-rating euphoria before the let-down: Zaha, Depay, Jones, Kagawa, Schweinsteiger etc etc.

But when Spurs players are involved, it's the opposite story: Walker is shit, Rose is shit, Lamela's a flop, Kane's a one-season wonder etc etc.

There is very little balance, and the same thing is now happening with regard to Pogba, except with bells on. Yes, he's a good player and yes he will improve United, but the absurd accolades are, as usual, way over the top.
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Do you realize this is a United forum? If so, then you probably understand that we may have high hopes for the players we sign.
 
acnumber9 said:
That's why I said could. It's worthy of ridicule to suggest they'd finish above Spurs though. Like I said, many here have been reading the same stuff for years. You haven't.
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It isn't "worthy of ridicule" to think that Liverpool could finish above Spurs. I have never ridiculed that possibility and to suggest that I have is just untrue

I don't think they will finish above us, but they could. Thinking that they won't, and explaining why, is not "ridicule".
 
Mihai said:
Do you realize this is a United forum? If so, then you probably understand that we may have high hopes for the players we sign.
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Of course. I'm just saying that a little more balance in player assessments would help, as would a little less vitriol directed towards those who don't share the very high opinion of player X.
 
Personally feel Spurs will get 4th as long as Kane isn't totally knackered and continues to knock in goals as he has done the last 2 years. Jannsen I suspect will be a good PL player which should help them if Kane starts off slowly, which I suspect he will.

The biggest question mark for me with Spurs is with regards to their defensive standards maintaining from last season. I think they'll take a step back from their heights on that end last season, but still will be among the best in the PL.
 
GlastonSpur said:
Of course. I'm just saying that a little more balance in player assessments would help, as would a little less vitriol directed towards those who don't share the very high opinion of player X.
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Fair enough. Bias aside, I still think redcafe is the most balanced forum around. I can only imagine the replies on bluemoon or rawk If you said that Alli is better than Gundogan or Wijnaldum, and put him on the same level as Modric.
 
Mihai said:
Fair enough. Bias aside, I still think redcafe is the most balanced forum around. I can only imagine the replies on bluemoon or rawk If you said that Alli is better than Gundogan or Wijnaldum, and put him on the same level as Modric.
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I don't know about the most balanced, as the pendulum can swing from defiant arrogant confidence to apocalytic negativity on here. But, at least, there are usually two camps battling it out on here. For me, I think it's fair say that certain opinions of Pogba may be a tad over the top on here, like @GlastonSpur is saying. For me, many different things need to fall in place for this United team to click, Pogba isn't a silver bullet. But if it does click, it could be electric.
 
AR87 said:
Personally feel Spurs will get 4th as long as Kane isn't totally knackered and continues to knock in goals as he has done the last 2 years. Jannsen I suspect will be a good PL player which should help them if Kane starts off slowly, which I suspect he will.

The biggest question mark for me with Spurs is with regards to their defensive standards maintaining from last season. I think they'll take a step back from their heights on that end last season, but still will be among the best in the PL.
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I believe the polar opposite. I've literally only seen him in the preseason so far for Spurs, so I'm well aware that it's hardly an educated opinion, but Dutch goalscorers (lately... RVN was too long ago) don't seem to have an easy time adapting to England. Coupled with the fact that I don't think he'll get much time to find his feet (Kane will take the majority of starts), he may encounter a lot of difficulties.
 
jungledrums said:
I believe the polar opposite. I've literally only seen him in the preseason so far for Spurs, so I'm well aware that it's hardly an educated opinion, but Dutch goalscorers (lately... RVN was too long ago) don't seem to have an easy time adapting to England. Coupled with the fact that I don't think he'll get much time to find his feet (Kane will take the majority of starts), he may encounter a lot of difficulties.
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Not unreasonable at all. Just my guess anyways based on watching what very little I have of him and reading up a bit about him.
 
Polite Poster said:
So true. Net spend is for ignorant fan dick waving !
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I disagree. All that the article shows is what most fans already know, namely that player-costs are amortised over the length of the contract. This fact doesn't magically wave away the monies involved, it simply spreads them out over time.

For a single player, these annual (amortised) costs are small in comparison with a club's annual income. But of course there are many players involved, a whole squad's worth in fact, and each of these individual annual costs are obviously added together to make a very much larger total annual cost.

And so if a club is continuously selling players for huge amounts less than it costs to buy new ones - net annual costs on players grows rapidly over time. This is because its income from the payment-instalments it gets (from clubs who bought the players it sold) will be small and getting smaller all the time in comparison to the large annual outgoing payments for the players still in the squad, including the new players it keeps acquiring.

So net spend is a very key item. Of course clubs have large income from other sources besides player sales. And if that other income is very large, then a large net spend on players can be sustained for a long time, but not indefinitely, year after year without end.
 
jungledrums said:
I believe the polar opposite. I've literally only seen him in the preseason so far for Spurs, so I'm well aware that it's hardly an educated opinion, but Dutch goalscorers (lately... RVN was too long ago) don't seem to have an easy time adapting to England. Coupled with the fact that I don't think he'll get much time to find his feet (Kane will take the majority of starts), he may encounter a lot of difficulties.
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He did ok against Atletico, one of the best if not the best defence in Europe. He didn't score but certainly didn't look out of place and might have got 2 assists if Mason and Lamela had finished the chances Janssen gave them.
 
Mihai said:
Fair enough. Bias aside, I still think redcafe is the most balanced forum around. I can only imagine the replies on bluemoon or rawk If you said that Alli is better than Gundogan or Wijnaldum, and put him on the same level as Modric.
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That's probably true.
 
GlastonSpur said:
Of course. I'm just saying that a little more balance in player assessments would help, as would a little less vitriol directed towards those who don't share the very high opinion of player X.
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At the same time you fight against every criticism of Spurs on here. Why is the balance lopsided in United's favour?
Works both ways buddy
 
cyberman said:
At the same time you fight against every criticism of Spurs on here. Why is the balance lopsided in United's favour?
Works both ways buddy
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No, I generally put forward reasoned arguments against any unreasonable criticism of Spurs on here ... of which there is lots.

I can recall, for example, being told on here that Spurs new stadium project would never get off the ground and being ridiculed when I explained why it would. It's similar story - I'm "delusional" - to when I explained the major long-term significance, in this new stadium, of our tie-up with the NFL ... but in due course it will become clear that once again the critics have failed to see the wood for the trees.

And, on the other hand, and for example, I've agreed that Paulinho, was a flop, or that Harry Redknapp, despite his achievements at the club, was also a motormouth who often said things that were nor helpful to the club or its players.
 
CassiusClaymore said:
All I want to know is which Spurs midfielder to put in my FF team this season? Alli, Erikson or the cheaper option in Lamela?
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I'd go for Lamela ... think he's going to have an excellent season.
 
CassiusClaymore said:
All I want to know is which Spurs midfielder to put in my FF team this season? Alli, Erikson or the cheaper option in Lamela?
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Eriksen is probably the safest bet to have a productive season, is a designated set-piece taker and won't pick up nearly as many infringements.
 
Mihai said:
Fair enough. Bias aside, I still think redcafe is the most balanced forum around. I can only imagine the replies on bluemoon or rawk If you said that Alli is better than Gundogan or Wijnaldum, and put him on the same level as Modric.
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Even most Liverpool fans I know would admit that Alli is far better than Wijnaldum.

He's nowhere near Modric though, that's ridiculous. He's got a lot to learn before he gets to that level, he still drifts out of games very regularly. A few games last season he did very little but popped up with a moment of magic. He's raw, but that's to be expected as he's only 20 years of age and it was his first season in the Premier League. Gundogan too is clearly the better player right now, one of the best in Europe when he's fit, as he showed a few seasons back when Dortmund were in the Champions League final. Alli has a long way to go to reach that level.

I don't see Alli as even comparable to those players though, his future lies in the number 10 role, not as a deeper midfielder. The closer he is to Kane the better.
 
CassiusClaymore said:
All I want to know is which Spurs midfielder to put in my FF team this season? Alli, Erikson or the cheaper option in Lamela?
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As @ADJUDICATOR says, Eriksen is our set piece taker, and very good at them to boot. He's consistently had a very good return of goals and assists in the league. Pretty much a safe bet, even when we have had a poor season he's delivered.

Lamela has been brilliant, but I think his role requires a bit more sacrifice, thus less goals and assists. Alli could go either way I feel, could struggle a bit in his second season (Remembering he is only 20 years old, it's not uncommon for players of that age to have off seasons) or could continue to do brilliantly. It's definitely a bigger risk to put him in there. It's one that could go very well though, because despite playing less games he had a better return than Eriksen.
 
Vicar of Dibbly said:
I think he was being sarcastic.
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I wasn't at all. All input greatly appreciated.

Gone Erikson at the moment as I'm not only worried about Alli suffering second season syndrome but he looks like a red card waiting to happen.

Lamela is doing well in pre season no? He's more of a risk but tempting for the drop in price.
 
GlastonSpur said:
I disagree. All that the article shows is what most fans already know, namely that player-costs are amortised over the length of the contract. This fact doesn't magically wave away the monies involved, it simply spreads them out over time.

For a single player, these annual (amortised) costs are small in comparison with a club's annual income. But of course there are many players involved, a whole squad's worth in fact, and each of these individual annual costs are obviously added together to make a very much larger total annual cost.

And so if a club is continuously selling players for huge amounts less than it costs to buy new ones - net annual costs on players grows rapidly over time. This is because its income from the payment-instalments it gets (from clubs who bought the players it sold) will be small and getting smaller all the time in comparison to the large annual outgoing payments for the players still in the squad, including the new players it keeps acquiring.

So net spend is a very key item. Of course clubs have large income from other sources besides player sales. And if that other income is very large, then a large net spend on players can be sustained for a long time, but not indefinitely, year after year without end.
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No it isn't. Clubs do not keep account of 'net spend'. Only fans do that for bragging rights.
 
CassiusClaymore said:
I wasn't at all. All input greatly appreciated.

Gone Erikson at the moment as I'm not only worried about Alli suffering second season syndrome but he looks like a red card waiting to happen.

Lamela is doing well in pre season no? He's more of a risk but tempting for the drop in price.
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Although it took him a while to get going and settle in Lamela, has basically been improving each season so far at Spurs to the point where he's now a worthy and well-established part of the first XI. And now, at the age of 24, I think he might well have a real break-out season. If he's a lot cheaper, then I'd go for him.
 
CassiusClaymore said:
I wasn't at all. All input greatly appreciated.

Gone Erikson at the moment as I'm not only worried about Alli suffering second season syndrome but he looks like a red card waiting to happen.

Lamela is doing well in pre season no? He's more of a risk but tempting for the drop in price.
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If you weren't being sarcastic, then apologies. It was the "cheaper option Lamela" which made me think it was sarcasm as everybody knows Lamela cost a lot more than Alli and Eriksen. Why not Dembele? He was spurs best midfielder last season.
 
Vicar of Dibbly said:
If you weren't being sarcastic, then apologies. It was the "cheaper option Lamela" which made me think it was sarcasm as everybody knows Lamela cost a lot more than Alli and Eriksen. Why not Dembele? He was spurs best midfielder last season.
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It's for Fantasy Football. Majority of the points come from goals/assists for non-defenders.
 
Polite Poster said:
No it isn't. Clubs do not keep account of 'net spend'. Only fans do that for bragging rights.
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As I've explained, negative net-spend monies don't disappear just because player costs are amortised over the period of their contracts. They remain a key factor.
 
GlastonSpur said:
As I've explained, negative net-spend monies don't disappear just because player costs are amortised over the period of their contracts. They remain a key factor.
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Of course the fee is important, but you don't look at it in regard to net spend, as the article highlighted.
Also, you said that if a club is continuously selling for less than they are buying, then it is "unsustainable". I have to disagree. You said it yourself, there are many ways clubs generate income. Selling players is not a primary form of income for a club like United. If total club revenue is higher than expenditure, it is sustainable.
 
GlastonSpur said:
Actually, the recent example you've quoted says "Liverpool or United" for 4th place, and then I say (concerning all the predictions) "This may change before the window is nearly closed and the season about to kick off".

I faced the same old nonsensical tirades when I predicted that Spurs would finish above United. I was "delusional", United's spending power blah blah blah.

The same thing occurred when I said that LvG would be sacked before Pochettino ever would be ... and there are several more examples where that comes from.

The truth is that a fair few players signed by United are hailed on here as world class or world class prospects, only for reality to bite. I can remember, for example, when the RB Rafael was given this treatment. There is usually an over-rating euphoria before the let-down: Zaha, Depay, Jones, Kagawa, Schweinsteiger etc etc.

But when Spurs players are involved, it's the opposite story: Walker is shit, Rose is shit, Lamela's a flop, Kane's a one-season wonder etc etc.

There is very little balance, and the same thing is now happening with regard to Pogba, except with bells on. Yes, he's a good player and yes he will improve United, but the absurd accolades are, as usual, way over the top.
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Not one word of that addresses where historical evidence means Spurs finishing below Liverpool is ridiculous and the same does not apply to Man Utd.

Fans of clubs overrate their players at times. Utd fans are guilty of it and so are you.
 
acnumber9 said:
Not one word of that addresses where historical evidence means Spurs finishing below Liverpool is ridiculous and the same does not apply to Man Utd.

Fans of clubs overrate their players at times. Utd fans are guilty of it and so are you.
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I've not said that the idea of Liverpool finishing above Spurs is ridiculous, so why would I address something I've not said?
 
GlastonSpur said:
I've not said that the idea of Liverpool finishing above Spurs is ridiculous, so why would I address something I've not said?
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Have you literally said it? I don't know. Have you constantly argued they won't because of how often you've finished above them? Yes.
 
GlastonSpur said:
In essence you're suggesting that Spurs players over-performed last season, whilst those of United, City and Arsenal all under-performed (I'm not sure why you are even mentioning Liverpool, since they've finished below Spurs for many seasons past now bar once). Well, it's a convenient theory ... convenient that is, for the supporters of United and City in particular.
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There's one from a few days. You don't even know why they would be considered to finish above Spurs.
 
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