The search for a holding/controlling midfielder

For those saying Blind at DM he was shockingly bad when he played there for us. The pace of the midfield runs catches him out as he can't play them offside with his football intelligence and hasn't got the pace to track them.

I think he's a more than capable cb although completely unheard of in the premier league and that's one of the reasons people don't rate him there. He's played there for a season and a half now and probably had about 3/4 bad games.
 
Get rid of Shwein/Schneiderlin and bring in Nzonzi , he's better than what we have and will be"good enough" for the next part of our rebuild (hopefully a rebuild that takes us back to the top).

We have to get rid of the deadwood now. Depay etc are costing us a fortune with nothing to show for it.

Should be quite feasible to have a zero net spend in the next 2-3 windows BUT also improve.
 
Nick. said:
It seems to me like there are two types of player we could get, a deep-lying playmaker (eg Weigl) or an energetic defensive midfielder (eg a payr like Kante) who fufill different roles on the pitch.

Which type should we be going for?
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We need a playmaker considering he'd be playing in a midfield 3 with Herrera & Pogba.
 
pocco said:
Usually when the player is at the end of their contract.
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We'll have to pay premium then but we can get him if we want to.

However after Kagawa and Mkhitaryan could it be the case that we overrate Dortmund players a bit too much?
 
devilish said:
We'll have to pay premium then but we can get him if we want to.

However after Kagawa and Mkhitaryan could it be the case that we overrate Dortmund players a bit too much?
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Absolutely! I'd not be keen to take another player off them. I think we over-rate the German league actually.
 
In our 4231, Rabiot is a good candidate.
 
I've only really seen him for the Netherlands but Strootman seems to have been good since he came back from his injuries. If he can stay fit all season (he could even be injured as I'm writing this) then he'd be really good with Pogba and Herrera; his passing range is great and his ability on the ball in general would give us something more in midfield.
 
Fracture90 said:
Weigl's gentle build is what worries me the most. He'd get eaten alive in EPL.
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I don't think so. He is actually quite robust despite not being very muscular but I have never really seen him getting muscled of the ball or anything like that. He also has the technical ability to handle pressure, I would argue that he is better than Carrick, who always seems to struggle when put under pressure, in that regard. Also if it really turns out he needs to put on some muscle that's something you can easily do in training within one or two seasons.

Honestly if we are looking to replace Carrick one to one Weigl is the closest player I would expect to have the talent to be as good as Carrick. Strootman probably as well but I have my doubts about him being able to stay fit.

My hopes were actually that Schweinsteiger would fill that role but he seems to have turned a bit too lazy in the later stages of his career and also seems to have severe problems with staying fit at all.
 
LawCharltonBest said:
Why are there threads about controlling midfielders and strikers when defense is quite clearly our biggest weakness? We have Rojo, Jones and Blind playing in defense. It's not even a joke anymore to suggest we may have the weakest defense in the league currently
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Really? Can you not see the difference in us when Carrick plays compared to when he doesnt? We lliterally need another carrick in there to compliment herrera and pogba to help control games for us, otherwise we'll never have a functioning team. The defence has a few big injuries now, normally its a very good defence if everyone is in form, though we could still use 1 more center back to partner Bailly since Im not big on Smalling.
But if a 35 year old playing is quite clearly the only way we can look cohesive and get the best out of our entire midfield and attack, then obviously thats something we need to look at.
 
NoLogo said:
I don't think so. He is actually quite robust despite not being very muscular but I have never really seen him getting muscled of the ball or anything like that. He also has the technical ability to handle pressure, I would argue that he is better than Carrick, who always seems to struggle when put under pressure, in that regard. Also if it really turns out he needs to put on some muscle that's something you can easily do in training within one or two seasons.

Honestly if we are looking to replace Carrick one to one Weigl is the closest player I would expect to have the talent to be as good as Carrick. Strootman probably as well but I have my doubts about him being able to stay fit.

My hopes were actually that Schweinsteiger would fill that role but he seems to have turned a bit too lazy in the later stages of his career and also seems to have severe problems with staying fit at all.
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Mate i know he's 187 but he's so thin he will have troubles in EPL. I found it somewhere that he weighs just under 70 kg. His technical abilities are spot on and his game intelligence as well but if he can strengthen a bit he'll be perfect replacement for Carrick.
 
Weigl's problem isn't his build or ability, it's his age. For that position we really can't afford to be taking a punt on player barely over the age of 20. We need someone in their prime, not someone who'll be in their prime in 8 years or so.
 
Fracture90 said:
Mate i know he's 187 but he's so thin he will have troubles in EPL. I found it somewhere that he weighs just under 70 kg. His technical abilities are spot on and his game intelligence as well but if he can strengthen a bit he'll be perfect replacement for Carrick.
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Yeah like I said that's something players can work on, just look at Özil. When he arrived at Arsenal he was thin as a needle because in Spain you can get away with a lack of physicality due to physically inferior players getting more protection from the refs but now he looks like a proper athlete and this season he looks like he finally adapted to the league. No reason why Weigl shouldn't be able to do the same.
 
Mciahel Goodman said:
Weigl's problem isn't his build or ability, it's his age. For that position we really can't afford to be taking a punt on player barely over the age of 20. We need someone in their prime, not someone who'll be in their prime in 8 years or so.
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He is still young but very mature for his age. He isn't that far of Carrick's level when he was at his best and still has potential to develop. With 19 the lad was already astonishingly consistent in his performances and the only time he had a weaker phase was at the start of this season where he wasn't irreplaceable in Dortmund's first 11. But he has overcome this phase very quickly for such a young player and is pretty much a guaranteed starter in every game again.

I feel the only problem we might run into with a young lad like him is that he might not be able to adjust to the life in another country fast enough to be of immediate use to us but that's a risk you run into even with players in their prime, see Di Maria.
 
Alock1 said:
N'Zonzi was always great for Stoke so not sure why people are only rating him now he's at Sevilla.

He's really not good enough on the ball for us though.
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I wouldn't say 'amazing' but he did always stand out to me in that Stoke midfield. I haven't really seen him much this season but it sounds like he's taken it up another level.
 
Fracture90 said:
If we sign a player like this than we need to ditch Herrera for a playmaker or to transition to 3-4-3 like Chelsea and overrun opponents on the flanks.
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Why? Mourinho would never play that formation. He is like Kante but has a Brazilian flair and better attacking sense. why can't we play 442 like Leicester did.

In a 433 you will have a great balance. Pogba, the creative one, Herrera the box to box one and Allan as the Defensive one. All 3 can defend and all 3 can attack, Allan would also give a safety barrier for our struggling defence. I know Herrera has been sound playing a deeper role but he sometimes gets caught out positionally which is when our defence starts to look shaky.

United Pro said:
Surely if we were looking at Napoli centre midfielders in the context of a holding controlling midfielder, Jorginho would come to mind over Allan? He plays more like Carrick, in that he's composed on the ball and got a decent passing range.
Here's a video of him:
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Wasn't specifically looking at Napoli midfielders, but yes he could work but He isn't nearly as defensive as Allan who does the donkey work for him whenever I have watched Napoli. He is the creative one in the Napoli side, we have Pogba for that role but at the moment but he isn't performing at all guns blazing because he has quite a big defensive responsibility to fulfil too which is the weakest part of his game. Allan would eliminate that problem, allowing Pogba to go on a run and not feel exposed if he does loose the ball for example. Herrera also has done a good job in the holding role but he is better further up the pitch, Balance wise we need a defensive safety barrier which is why Kante made so much sense, In Allan we'd have that.

Nick. said:
It seems to me like there are two types of player we could get, a deep-lying playmaker (eg Weigl) or an energetic defensive midfielder (eg a payr like Kante) who fufill different roles on the pitch.

Which type should we be going for?
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As said above, to allow Pogba and Herrera to perform at there highest levels we need an Energetic defensive midfielder to give them that safety barrier, if they loose the ball or get caught out of position he will be there, it also takes pressure off out defense which is quite shakey at the moment, also we just lack energy sometimes, I hate it when we see it when all our players are static and not moving for the ball.

We have our Midfield to Attack transition guy in Pogba, let's get our Defence to Midfield guy in Allan.
 
P-Nut0712 said:
For those saying Blind at DM he was shockingly bad when he played there for us. The pace of the midfield runs catches him out as he can't play them offside with his football intelligence and hasn't got the pace to track them.

I think he's a more than capable cb although completely unheard of in the premier league and that's one of the reasons people don't rate him there. He's played there for a season and a half now and probably had about 3/4 bad games.
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See this is what annoys me, people are quick to forget that it was his first ever season in the prem and got thrown in at the deep end by LVG, where he hadn't adjusted to the physicality or the pace. he has adapted very well as a CB which is a more physical role that a CDM, I don't think we have seen him once at CDM this season, so we can't judge until we have seen an "adapted to the prem" Blind in is his original position.
 
Cheekiey said:
See this is what annoys me, people are quick to forget that it was his first ever season in the prem and got thrown in at the deep end by LVG, where he hadn't adjusted to the physicality or the pace. he has adapted very well as a CB which is a more physical role that a CDM, I don't think we have seen him once at CDM this season, so we can't judge until we have seen an "adapted to the prem" Blind in is his original position.
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It's not about adjusting though. As a dm he would be required to stick qith players runs. As a cb he can use his intelligence to play them offside. That's something he's excellent at.
 
P-Nut0712 said:
It's not about adjusting though. As a dm he would be required to stick qith players runs. As a cb he can use his intelligence to play them offside. That's something he's excellent at.
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I still think he can do a solid job there, the way you was describing hI'm you'd thought we put Rooney at CDM
 
Its not about the pace or physicality at all for Blind. Biggest thing you need for midfield is having that spatial awareness (anyone who actually plays in midfield would know this). Scholes was never quick or strong. Neither is Carrick. What they know how to do expertly is drift into open spaces to pick up the ball and know how to play the right pass under pressure. They make themselves open to receive passes and know with their first touch where to turn and who to play it to. You need that mindset in your head when you play in midfield if you want to play in a controlling role, along with picking up smart positions defensively because they are the holding mid. Blind has done well in defence but I'm still not quite sure if he could adapt that to midfield with the added pressure around him and less space to play. He is great at playing it out from the back with more time to think, but its different from midfield. Probably worth a try though on occasions where Carrick cant play.
 
William Carvalho always impressed me. Blind as well is another option.
 
If anyone remembers we started with 352 under LVG but we were poor & uncoordinated. Blind didn't have a clue how to adapt to the CDM position back then but I actually think he would now show signs of progress.

Considering how the second season ended with players like lingard &Rashford & Martial building an understanding - I reckon we would have eventually played 352 again. We had players like TFM emerging who could balance the RB&RDM spot which is what even pep was trying to emulate at bayern & city.

I reckon blind would have gone back to the CDM position.

The thing with blind is - IM0 he is the best defender to play in a back 3 because he can play as a DM when in possession and play as a 3rd CB when not in possession.

I think he is much more able to play CDM than he used to be simply because he has proven to play the CB spot to a decent level & has gained experience in his defending game to give him some freedom to get back to his natural position as a CDM.

He would be the ideal CDM that covers the CB's and drops in to the defense in emergencies - acting as extra support.

This would stop us needing to rely on our wingers and forwards defending so deep because we would have 5 at the back when blind as a CDM drops in to CB.


Blind at CDM thumbs up! Seriously what is there to lose, we might as well try it out.
 
Mciahel Goodman said:
Weigl's problem isn't his build or ability, it's his age. For that position we really can't afford to be taking a punt on player barely over the age of 20. We need someone in their prime, not someone who'll be in their prime in 8 years or so.
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Ideally yes, but that player simply doesn't exist right now, so we are going to have to go younger and develop them into the role.
 
sullydnl said:
Thinking about it, Gerrard had Xabi Alonso and Mascherano alongside him in that Liverpool team. Thank Christ Benitez was their manager. :lol:

But yeah, that sort of player is exactly what our midfield is lacking.
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How they did not win the title in 2009 is beyond me. Best midfield, best striker, should have signed a solid defender and a wide man in January when they were on top of the league. Would have been a statement as well.

As far United has concerned, we seem to be unable to groom the potential. I rated Blind very high as holding midfielder and he showed glimpses but all of a sudden he was restricted to left back and then eventually center back by LVG. I recall redcafe was full of his praise and him being the successor of Carrick after his displays in the holding midfield. Same goes with Adnan Januzaj, Martial and Depaay. Their careers are heading backwards instead of blossoming. I am sure if they go to a team like Spurs or Everton, they will start playing like world beaters.

I would rather play Schneiderlin or Blind than to experiment in January Transfer window.
 
P-Nut0712 said:
Not at all of course he'd do a job but when Carrick is the bench mark he doesn't come close.
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Yeah I agree, but Carrick didn't come close to Scholes or Keane for that matter.

I'd like us to sign Allan from Napoli, I've pleaded my case a few posts back how he'd bring a lovely balance to our midfield which is lacking that kind of energy too.
 
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LawCharltonBest said:
Why are there threads about controlling midfielders and strikers when defense is quite clearly our biggest weakness? We have Rojo, Jones and Blind playing in defense. It's not even a joke anymore to suggest we may have the weakest defense in the league currently
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Maybe because we can have ......... ..... more than one thread? (Dum, dum durmmmm! )

You think we've got a weaker defence than Sunderland, Swansea, Hull, Palace, Stole, Burnley?? I think there's only half a dozen teams with less goals conceded? We're no Neville/Vidic/Rio/Evra but not weakest in the league.
 
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Was I the only one who was really impressed with the Feynoord midfielder Renato Tapia yesterday? He was very strong on the ball, defensively solid, dribbled through midfield and was technically sound.
 
Not sure how attainable he is, will require him to really want to come. But surely the no.1 target should be Verratti? Phenomenal player and only one year older than Pogba - those two would dominate the PL for the next decade imo.
 
JJ12 said:
Verratti is the dream
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The impossible dream, sadly. Probably among the least-attainable players in world football. The best midfielder in a club that commands almost infinite resources, that could buy us out fifty-times-over, and he has 5 years still to run on his contract.
 
Infra-red said:
The impossible dream, sadly. Probably among the least-attainable players in world football. The best midfielder in a club that commands almost infinite resources, that could buy us out fifty-times-over, and he has 5 years still to run on his contract.
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PSG's resources are not as infinite as that thanks to FFP, remember we only got Di Maria because they couldn't afford him at the time.
 
Verratti would be an insane investment, a Pogba type investment in both fee and salary. With Champions League football looking unlikely next season, I don't think he will be the answer - but yes, he is the dream.
 
Nickosaur said:
Verratti would be an insane investment, a Pogba type investment in both fee and salary. With Champions League football looking unlikely next season, I don't think he will be the answer - but yes, he is the dream.
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Why is CL football looking unlikely?
 
Fracture90 said:
Why is CL football looking unlikely?
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Currently I just can't see who drops out the top 4 (could argue top 5) at the expense of United. Of course, one or two teams will falter as the season goes on, but that requires United to not only claw back the gap but also take advantage enough to surpass.

Signs are promising that Mourinho is close to a dangerous formula, but still - it's going to be very difficult.
 
Nickosaur said:
Currently I just can't see who drops out the top 4 (could argue top 5) at the expense of United. Of course, one or two teams will falter as the season goes on, but that requires United to not only claw back the gap but also take advantage enough to surpass.

Signs are promising that Mourinho is close to a dangerous formula, but still - it's going to be very difficult.
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Tottenham and Arsenal don't seem too convincing and Chelsea is relying heavily on individual quality of Hazard and Costa. With us improving our game and if we become a tad more clinical it will be an interesting race for the top 4.

Also keep in mind that the EL winner automatically qualifies for CL next year.
 
Verratti the name. All concern abt his physique is BS, we lost Luka Magic once, no way it happens again
 
Any of you guys who watch Serie A watch that Paredes guy who plays for Roma? Seen him mentioned here a fair few times, and he seems to get more and more attention.
 
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