Cesc in January for interim??
The search for a holding/controlling midfielder
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Ruben Neves
He has an expansive passing range, which allows him to ping passes to the flanks with consummate ease. Very much like Alonso in that respect. However, and perhaps inconsequential at this moment of time, he doesn't yet consistently make those incisive probing passes between the lines. Additionally, he's fairly mobile and skilful which allows him to gracefully avoid players that come within close proximity, by performing an instinctive piece of trickery. At Real Madrid, particularly under the guidance under Jose, Alonso often played in a 4-2-3-1 with a defensive box to box midfielder alongside him, like Khedira, and Ozil as the no.10 ahead of him Similarly, we should be looking at a box to box midfielder with great defensive capabilities to compensate for Neves' defensive frailties, as well as the fact that Pogba looked more liberated with a midfield that had more defensive solidarity, than he had in his 1st season at Juve. Neves is no stranger to having a meteoric rise as exemplified by the fact he bypassed both the U19s, and B team, and he's the youngest Portuguese player to grace the Champions League, which means we would be in good stead of having a player with a high ceiling.
Johannes Geis
Amazing technique. He can put a formidable amount of pressure on the ball with little back lift. He's great at corners, direct and indirect free kicks, crosses in open play, picking out players situated on either flank, irrespective of where he is on the pitch, and shooting from distance. He's very similar to Alonso. Unfortunately, Geis is overly keen to hit those cross field diagonal balls which can make his style tedious as the game wares on. He's also immobile, and disconcertingly reckless in the tackle.
Jorginho
Jorginho, a deep lying playmaker in a similar mould of Pirlo. He's in many ways suspect defensively, and relies on Allan who has a particularly noteworthy workrate, aggressive, dogged determination and I remember when he played for Udinese, his interceptions and tackle rates were consistently in the top 2 alongside Vidal. Similarly, Pirlo relied on Vidal, Marchisio and Pogba to do his dirty work, or Gattuso and Seedorf at Ac Milan. Jorginho, compensates for this with his ability to instigate attacks from the back with his commendable composure when on the ball. Last season, Jorginho made 180 passes in one game, to my knowledge, that's only bettered by Alonso in recent years. He was a crucial cog for Maurizio Sarri, as Napoli averaged 59.3% possession, the most in Serie A (before they averaged the 5th most possesion). Only Barca, Bayern, PSG and Dortmund averaged more in the top 5 European leagues.
Leandro Paredes
Most comparable to Sergio Busquets. Great at making those incisive probing passes through the lines. Moreover, he's very mobile, which is important as he's comfortable in manoeuvring himself out of tight spaces, although at times he undoes his aesthetically pleasing work by getting ahead of himself, and going for the spectacular. For instance, there would be times when he's escaped the pressing of a player, then escapes another in quick succession and instead of releasing the ball, he would then attempt a raking 40 yard pass which goes out of play. If he can stay slightly limit his flamboyant nature, whilst concurrently, being productive then he can become the quite the player. His biggest weakness is that he can be susceptible to holding onto the ball for too long, much like Busquets who often invites pressure, although at times it can be a positive, as sometimes he buys a foul when limited passing opportunities arise.
Julian Weigl
Given that Carrick is my favourite Man Utd player, Weigl is my ideal option as he's more comparable to Carrick than the aforementioned.
My top 3 in order of preference would go something like this:
1. Weigl
2. Leandro Paredes
3. Ruben Neves
Subject to change of course, given you can never predict which unknown quantity may arise.
He has an expansive passing range, which allows him to ping passes to the flanks with consummate ease. Very much like Alonso in that respect. However, and perhaps inconsequential at this moment of time, he doesn't yet consistently make those incisive probing passes between the lines. Additionally, he's fairly mobile and skilful which allows him to gracefully avoid players that come within close proximity, by performing an instinctive piece of trickery. At Real Madrid, particularly under the guidance under Jose, Alonso often played in a 4-2-3-1 with a defensive box to box midfielder alongside him, like Khedira, and Ozil as the no.10 ahead of him Similarly, we should be looking at a box to box midfielder with great defensive capabilities to compensate for Neves' defensive frailties, as well as the fact that Pogba looked more liberated with a midfield that had more defensive solidarity, than he had in his 1st season at Juve. Neves is no stranger to having a meteoric rise as exemplified by the fact he bypassed both the U19s, and B team, and he's the youngest Portuguese player to grace the Champions League, which means we would be in good stead of having a player with a high ceiling.
Johannes Geis
Amazing technique. He can put a formidable amount of pressure on the ball with little back lift. He's great at corners, direct and indirect free kicks, crosses in open play, picking out players situated on either flank, irrespective of where he is on the pitch, and shooting from distance. He's very similar to Alonso. Unfortunately, Geis is overly keen to hit those cross field diagonal balls which can make his style tedious as the game wares on. He's also immobile, and disconcertingly reckless in the tackle.
Jorginho
Jorginho, a deep lying playmaker in a similar mould of Pirlo. He's in many ways suspect defensively, and relies on Allan who has a particularly noteworthy workrate, aggressive, dogged determination and I remember when he played for Udinese, his interceptions and tackle rates were consistently in the top 2 alongside Vidal. Similarly, Pirlo relied on Vidal, Marchisio and Pogba to do his dirty work, or Gattuso and Seedorf at Ac Milan. Jorginho, compensates for this with his ability to instigate attacks from the back with his commendable composure when on the ball. Last season, Jorginho made 180 passes in one game, to my knowledge, that's only bettered by Alonso in recent years. He was a crucial cog for Maurizio Sarri, as Napoli averaged 59.3% possession, the most in Serie A (before they averaged the 5th most possesion). Only Barca, Bayern, PSG and Dortmund averaged more in the top 5 European leagues.
Leandro Paredes
Most comparable to Sergio Busquets. Great at making those incisive probing passes through the lines. Moreover, he's very mobile, which is important as he's comfortable in manoeuvring himself out of tight spaces, although at times he undoes his aesthetically pleasing work by getting ahead of himself, and going for the spectacular. For instance, there would be times when he's escaped the pressing of a player, then escapes another in quick succession and instead of releasing the ball, he would then attempt a raking 40 yard pass which goes out of play. If he can stay slightly limit his flamboyant nature, whilst concurrently, being productive then he can become the quite the player. His biggest weakness is that he can be susceptible to holding onto the ball for too long, much like Busquets who often invites pressure, although at times it can be a positive, as sometimes he buys a foul when limited passing opportunities arise.
Julian Weigl
Given that Carrick is my favourite Man Utd player, Weigl is my ideal option as he's more comparable to Carrick than the aforementioned.
My top 3 in order of preference would go something like this:
1. Weigl
2. Leandro Paredes
3. Ruben Neves
Subject to change of course, given you can never predict which unknown quantity may arise.
Great post @Rasendori
Agreed but you'd think Ruben Neves needs to start getting picked in Porto's first team more often as opposed to be frequently on the bench before we can start talking about signing him...otherwise could be another Maniche/Hugo Viana type signing
That's the position we are in with regards to the role I think, unless we can get Weigl we'd be looking at players who are not currently first choice in their clubs for one reason or another.
I've never bought into the concept of 'holding' midfielders. The only things holding midfielders do is hold the team back. Whenever someone mentions the term I cringe. It just describes a very limited midfield player who might be great at breaking up play and making safe passes but the overall contribution is not nearly enough. And for some reason these players always have some fans raving about them while I see a nothing player.
I much prefer midfield players who are positionally aware, somehow always find themselves in tons of space to receive the ball from the back four, remain calm and start a forward movement without dwelling on the ball. It might just be semantics but I'd much rather have 'deep lying playmakers', 'metronome midfielders', 'box-to-box midfielders' over 'holding midfielders'.
I much prefer midfield players who are positionally aware, somehow always find themselves in tons of space to receive the ball from the back four, remain calm and start a forward movement without dwelling on the ball. It might just be semantics but I'd much rather have 'deep lying playmakers', 'metronome midfielders', 'box-to-box midfielders' over 'holding midfielders'.
Yeah I agree. It's almost accepted now that without a holding midfielder you simply can't defend. If Keane and Scholes could defend with just the two of them whichever group of three we choose now should be enough.
I think you're describing a pure destroyer, not the holding midfielders. So to the different types that you prefer: Holding is exactly Busquet, Deep lying playmakers: Pirlo, Metronome: Kroos, box to box: Yaya Toure (in his first two seasons at City anyway), I'd gladly take Busquet for us any time of the week.
Interesting. Yes, I suppose when you think of the likes of Schneiderlin and Kante as 'holding midfielders' you might be tempted to ask what they contribute going forward - which is very little. And indeed when you compare them to 'metronome midfielders' - à la Carrick, their role is diminished further in that the likes of Carrick, Busquets, Xabi Alonso do a far more complete job in that position. Aside from screening the two centre-halves, they cut passing lanes, maintain shape, press the space, set tempo and pick the right pass to begin attacks. It's a tricky task and one that only a handful in a generation are capable of fulfilling at the highest level.
That's not to say there isn't a place for holding midfielders, whose job is to put out fires and break up play, because that is invaluable in itself - particularly to defensively minded teams or sides who expect to concede possession to superior teams. It's about knowing your limitations.
I maintain that in today's game, the central defensive midfield role is the most important. It is the axis in which the entire team revolves. And they have the greatest responsibility of any player on the pitch. It is no coincidence that the three teams who have dominated in Europe over the least decade, Barca, Real and Bayern, have all done so with a CDM - Busquets, Xabi Alonso and Lahm/Schweinsteiger.
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I've always thought of holding midfielders to be synonymous with deep-lying playmakers. A midfielder whose purpose is to be defensive and plug the gaps is a destroyer.
In the instance of Kante - he doesn't really "hold". He's a pressing machine and follows the ball all around the middle of the pitch. So I'd call him a destroyer. Compare that to Carrick or Alonso: they sit in front of the CBs and "hold" their position, controlling the game from there.
In the instance of Kante - he doesn't really "hold". He's a pressing machine and follows the ball all around the middle of the pitch. So I'd call him a destroyer. Compare that to Carrick or Alonso: they sit in front of the CBs and "hold" their position, controlling the game from there.
Our academy must be stacked
If Busquet, Alonso, Schweinsteiger(at his peak) are considered holding midfielders and we get a player like that then I have no problem with what we label them. To me these players represent some of the most talented central midfielders in the past decade or so. They are intelligent players who are always available to receive the ball and can switch play from defense to attack instantly. When I think of holding midfielders I am thinking more Matic, William Carvalho, Mikel(at his best), Wanyama, Coquelin, Eric Dier type players. Now they do a good job for their teams but I would never want a player like that in our team.
Pretty much this. Adding extra midfielder who is only concerned about defending is just such a boring way to play. It is much easier to implement positional discipline in your more talented midfielders than to coach proper passing and dribbling to less talented but more robust midfielders.
I think it's a big stretch to link the CDM role with the success of those three teams. Two of those teams also have the world's two best players. Bayern are also littered with top quality throughout.
Personally I think there a plenty of midfielders who could do that job I just don't think many are willing. It's a pretty boring role. No kid getting into football dreams of screening the centre halves.
I'm sure an in their prime Keane and Gerrard could have done it as well as Alonso. Those two could get around the pitch though so why limit yourself to sitting.
Maybe, but I don't think the role of the CDM can underestimated. So much goes though them. They alleviate pressure on defenders and instigate attacks.
But yes, I accept your point about the quality of the players that said individuals have had around them.
We've been linked with Danny Drinkwater.
I've been watching a lot of Villareal, and Trigueros is exceptional.
I'd say a good formula is: The higher the quality of a team, the more time they'll spend on the ball. And the more a team relies on possession, passing and high positioning, the more important it becomes to field a capable build up player as its midfield anchor. Maybe that connects high overall quality and the tendency to have some sort of DLP.
(Which doesn't mean everything fits this formula: Pirlo played in some relatively defensive top teams; Real has had several different styles over the years.)
I like him but he's no better than what we have. Would be a complete waste of £££.
Thats my view of it as well. I'd have described keane as a holding midfielder for most of his time here since he had a big chunk of our possession and consequently contolled where the play went. I tend to view a holding player as the player who's most responsible for holding the ball as opposed to an anchor man who's role is almost exclusively defensive screening. Its obviously open to a lot of interpretation though.
He could do a job but you've got to think he'd be more consistent with the quality you'd associate with the second string here. Moving on schneiderlin for drinkwater wouldnt be an obvious improvement other than the club affinity.
Pogba-----------Herrera
---------Kante---------
I wonder if we did, and if so, how much did we push for Kante. He would've relieved Herrera and Pogba a lot of the defensive duties.
---------Kante---------
I wonder if we did, and if so, how much did we push for Kante. He would've relieved Herrera and Pogba a lot of the defensive duties.
That would be no good in terms of game defining inventiveness/ability to control the proceedings. And functionally a bit like Kanté + Pogba + Matuidi, come to think of it, which was rather dreary to watch for France. We don't just have to relieve Ander and Pogba in terms of defensive duties. We need someone who can actively control the game à la Carrick, Alonso, Scholes, Modrić, Pirlo - as either the DLP if Ander is used as the right sided box-to-box, or the positionally aware and defensively decent right sided CM if Ander stays as the #6 (like the Verratti position at PSG where he builds in tandem with Motta). Neither Pogba nor Ander can do that to the level that is needed (Ander can, to an extent, but he can't be your primary), which is a bit of a concern in terms of our setup and personnel.
In terms of the ideal template, it should be like one of these:
The first one is more defensively secure, and the second is more sexy.
I still think Blind will play that role. Jose just needs a reason to play him there once and I think he could nail down the spot. He's improved a lot since his first year here.
Kante ain't no pure DM.. He's better going forward
No chance that Gerrard could have done that role and I think you underestimate how talented a player needs to be to play that role.
You need to be a very complete player to play DM for the top sides. Football intelligence in both an attacking and defensive sense, strong in the air/quality first touch because you're the one who is usually the best placed to win the first ball from opposition goal kick/recieved the ball from defenders under pressure, tackling ability, endurance, good dribbling skills again to manipulate the ball in tight spaces in either direction, short and long range passing. You need to have a very consistent and warrior like mentality because you can't afford to have off games unlike the guys up top who can share the burden of responsibility.
In the past Id say the B2B midfielder was the most complete player in a side but no one uses these sort of midfielders as much so the CDM for these top sides is a very important player.
If you look at Verratti for instance he has a huge influence on the entire playing style of PSG. He's like a one man spine.
For me personally I agree with you.. All positions need to be quality to be a cohesive unit but a top CB, Midfield unit including CDM/CM/8-10, one winger and CF. Those are your core players, if you can't get those right.. You'll be a very inconsistent team and you can lose games. It's why having Rooney there destabilized the entire team.
When I look at this United team.. Bailly is the only absolute hit so far this season .. Others are slightly misfiring and CDM/CM is still vacant. So we are still an unstable team despite having decent wing backs (see below).
Now in the modern game in order to 'win' games I think role of full backs is incredibly important which is why when Rojo etc play we look blunt going forwards. You won't lose games with a shit full back (who can defend relatively well) but you won't win games.
What do you think of giving the role to Herrera permanently and buying a box to box player like Saul Niguez to play next to him, and freeing up Pogba in the attacking role?
Herrera
Saul Pogba
I think this can work if we can't get a Busquets or Carrick type player for the holding role. Either of Saul or Verratti will provide the defensive help that Herrera requires.Saul Pogba
Not against that all.. I want to see what Herrera ends up as under Jose and then buy accordingly.
Yeah football is the ultimate team sport, every position is important. You can't get away with a bad DM but likewise you can't with a poor fullback. It only takes two or three underperforming players to ruin a team.
I have to disagree about Gerrard. The only thing he lacked in his prime to do that role was the willingness to perform it. Same goes for Keane. It's a pretty boring role.
If you look at some of the attributes you listed, good at dribbling in tight spaces, warrior mentality,strong in the air, tackling ability. I don't think Carrick excels in any of those areas and he's been our DM for years.
Just play Carrick every PL game and completely rest him for every cup game. Simple.
He's fit enough to play 31 more games between now and June of next year.
He's fit enough to play 31 more games between now and June of next year.
No Gerrard lacked willingness and positional awareness. He couldn't be trusted in centre mid because he didn't know how to take up positions both on and off the ball. He operated on sheer instinct but in his case his instinct wasn't on point for that role. He'd have made a very average DM even if he had tried to stay in that position. Keane was a different kettle of fish. Much more likelier to play that role to a world class/legendary level if he had wanted to. On the flipside Gerrard was a world class AM whereas Keano wouldn't have been able to pull that off. So both different players.
You mistake my warrior quality, it doesn't necessarily need to be in terms of brute strength.. it is more a always switched on, ready for every game, every moment is significant and in that sense Carrick is one of the most consistent players United have had since 2006. He is very stable mentally and is rarely phased by opposing attacking threats. From a defensive perspective he is as good as they come, and he is very strong in the air and a great tackler (which doesn't mean flying into tackles, but getting into good positions and intercepting/blocking passing lines). He is also very good in the air, hence he was even trusted to play CB at times for a DM.
Carrick's only weakness has been good at dribbling in tight spaces and that is why he is a level below your Busquets/Alonso's. It is why united themselves were unable to take on Barcelona.. they knew our midfield would fall to pieces if pressed and Carrick was a big liability in that respect, further highlighting how important getting the right quality of CDM is. If your CDM starts passing back all the time under pressure, your CB's are forced to hoof it forward all the time.
What do the three players mentioned, Carrick, Alonso and Busquets all have in common? They're one paced. Then look at our current options for that role, Fellaini, Herrera and Schweinsteiger(sort of) and Blind. One paced. Look at other DM's and you'll find its very often the case.
To me the reason these guys end up playing that role isn't became of what they're good at but more because of what they can't do. They can't get up and down the pitch, they don't have the pace or athleticism. So they sit.
I just think it's an overrated role.
Carrick is no "warrior" by any definition of that word I know.
Totally agree.Decent player but well overrated .
I didnt really mean he was overrated. I rate him very highly and want to see him playing more this season. He just isnt a warrior. It was always one of the big criticisms people have of him. Im just saying, for me it slightly undermines the point Raees is making about the qualities you need to play there. If you say "you need to be a warrior to play DM" and then say "Carrick is a warrior because he has great focus and consistency," you are basically changing the meaning of "warrior", rather than just admitting the original statement was incorrect.
The term warrior was misused by me I agreed. What I meant was someone who is always engaged to fight.. but not necessarily 'fight' in the literal sense but someone who is always up for the game with 100% 'defensive' concentration. Carrick might seem very laid back but in every game at his peak, you couldn't fault how reliable he was.. he was always involved defensively, you'd rarely see him ever have an off day in that regard. In terms of physical defensive confrontations, in many ways he was actually a 'warrior'.. very strong in defensive situations, an absolute nightmare to outfox as his brain is always one step ahead of the game and therefore.. he is impregnable for most attacking players. He was brave in defensive situations. Where he lacks heart is on the ball against teams who put pressure on him.. its actually on the ball where he falls a level below the Busquets in this world, not off it.
For me the term warrior was misguided but that is what I was trying to say. You don't need to be Keano or Joey Barton to be a warrior in my opinion, you can be an understated but still very committed and reliable soldier and that is what I was trying to say Carrick was.
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yes they are one paced, but what nature takes away in one aspect can be made up for in another. Now Cristiano Ronaldo might be a far superior player to the names you just listed, but does that mean he has it in his locker to play defensive midfield even if he wanted to.. no. So each individual player regardless of certain deficiencies can still be of the right skillset to fill a particular role. Your argument that anyone could play DM if they wanted to is just plain wrong. You just have to look at someone like Pogba or Fellaini to realise that no.. not everyone can play DM.
Yes that makes sense.
I don't think I said anyone can play DM.