The search for a holding/controlling midfielder

sullydnl said:
Thinking about it, Gerrard had Xabi Alonso and Mascherano alongside him in that Liverpool team. Thank Christ Benitez was their manager. :lol:

But yeah, that sort of player is exactly what our midfield is lacking.
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Yep. Players like Pogba need quality behind them to allow them to show their qualities without dilution. He himself had Vidal and Marchisio at Juventus. It's not just about playing as a 10. It's about having two in midfield who set the game up for you to shine. Right now we're seemingly needing Pogba to be the guy running our midfield, and he's not capable of it as of now IMO. It's like when ADM was expected to be our main man in attack and failed miserably. I expect Pogba to do far better of course.

I do have to add that he still has to be far far far better than he was last night. Nothing excuses shitshows like that.
 
You can set the tempo if you are pressing and putting in the tackles. I think there are two types: the one who sets the tempo without the ball (the tackler) and the one who sets the tempo with the ball (the passer). Do we have either one?
 
NinjaZombie said:
Why not try Schweinsteiger in the role? He might get injured somewhere down the road, but we have Carrick as well.
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I've written Schweinsteiger off, tbh. He was disappointing last season (was never really fit), and Mourinho seemingly has left him out of his plans for this season. If he could regain his fitness and Mourinho's favour, then who knows.

I think we'll need to bring someone else in, though. Carrick can't be relied upon to play consecutive games, and as of now Fellaini is the best partner for Pogba.
 
Red_toad said:
Lad is talented but no where near experienced enough to be expected to control a midfield and have the positional awareness for such a role. I'd not expect any manager to make such a big ask of a very inexperienced young player. Not sure why you'd love to see him be given the chance, as he'd highly likely fail.
As for not seeing him do a mistake, your rose tinted glasses are very rose tinted.
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I did write in my next post that i meant he has potential to be this sort of player for the future, not a starting 11 every game for now.

That last comment is uncalled for in my opinion, the player did well the matches he got last year, and i do not mean to say he was 10/10 every game. I do think he was one of our better players in those matches, which i'm confident the ratings he got in here will show that many agree with me.
Attack the post, not the poster, drop the "rose tinted shit".
 
I don't see it with Mensah at all. Not that he doesn't have potential, but when has he ever controlled a game from deep ala Scholes?
 
Cristiano Lell said:
Ah.
Apart from being a kid and really, really raw, Renato is not that kind of player (controlling, deep lying playmaker). Like not at all.
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Aye. Sanches, as he is now, is still a huge liability when playing midfield for an attacking team unless paired with a monster like Vidal (or Martinez... god, I want that guy back in midfield. We've never looked stronger in midfield than with him).
 
I'd go for Ruben Neves. One of the best young talents in Europe. I've only seen him play once and he looked really great. His passing, positioning, vision and reading of game were apparent and I think with the right management he could turn out to be a great holding mid.
 
Reading through I find myself in complete agreement with @Synco

Pogue Mahone said:
If we're going to have any faith in the manager at all (and god knows it's hard after watching our last two games) then we have to stop coming up with signings we need to make to get this team to function.

Mourinho made it quite clear in the summer that he identified what we needed and got what he wanted. Coming up with names of signings that will "fix" us is doing the manager a disservice. His United career (and our season) will live or die on his ability to build a winning team out of the players already at the club. That's something Mourinho obviously believes he can do, so it's a waste of time speculating about missing pieces in his jigsaw.
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Jose has talked a good game and I imagine he expected Guardiola's style to take longer to bed in at City, but personally I think he is probably looking at us the same way he looked at Chelsea in his first season back there, getting a look at what he has, tweaking some areas and then seeing where he needs to polish the overall package for a real challenge the next season.

The fact we've not played well without Carrick in midfield for years will become apparent to him, just as I think last night will have shown Blind's importance as well, without either of them we had no tempo and were slug-like getting the ball through the lines as what should be done in one pass was taking 3 switches of player to amble it up the pitch. All of this will be of data gathering use IMO, but I'd be shocked if he doesn't see the two gaping issues this team has within the squad.
 
Devil may care said:
Reading through I find myself in complete agreement with @Synco



Jose has talked a good game and I imagine he expected Guardiola's style to take longer to bed in at City, but personally I think he is probably looking at us the same way he looked at Chelsea in his first season back there, getting a look at what he has, tweaking some areas and then seeing where he needs to polish the overall package for a real challenge the next season.

The fact we've not played well without Carrick in midfield for years will become apparent to him, just as I think last night will have shown Blind's importance as well, without either of them we had no tempo and were slug-like getting the ball through the lines as what should be done in one pass was taking 3 switches of player to amble it up the pitch. All of this will be of data gathering use IMO, but I'd be shocked if he doesn't see the two gaping issues this team has within the squad.
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Hear! Hear!
 
I think this is a huge miss. I and a few other posters pointed this out during the transfer window. We really lack a holding midfielder like Carrick who is disciplined enough to shield the back four and hold his position and then have the passing range to convert interceptions/tackles to attacks pretty fast.
 
Said it before, but I really think Cambiasso was the most important cog in Mou's CL-winning Inter team. I hope someone can take that role, or that we get a player in that mold.
 
Deeplying passer + box-to-box midfielder + Pogba would essentially be emulating Juve's 2012-15 midfield. Herrera seems fairly well-suited to the energetic box-to-box role. I can't think of a better (theoretically transferrable) option than Jorginho for the tempo-dictating passer. Weigl is the only other one that springs to mind, but he would have to be completely stupid to leave Dortmund any time soon. Tolisso, maybe.
 
notcool said:
Does he match up to Vidal, Fletcher in your eyes?
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His United career thus far has been disappointing so comparison with either of those players would seem fatuous. I think he has the right attributes to be a Fletcher-type player for us, with consistency of performance being the greatest hurdle to overcome.
 
Devil may care said:
Having world class players in each sector of the team is natural for top sides, but you need a base for the forward lines to play off no matter who they are, that means a technically excellent midfield that is the supply line for the forwards as well as the protection for the defense.
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I hear you but just saying world class isn't necessary. Kante is a prize example, and I'm not convinced playing for Leicester meant he looked any different than previous season and now at Chelsea. Yet would he look out of place in any top side....No. The terms your using are just too subjective. Also it's takes all sorts to win football matches and Portugal and Leicester proved this this year. The biggest issue for me is the culture of the football is the context of which you play the game. Would Barca, Real or Bayern win their respective leagues with the same frequency in the prem, don't think so but I think your right in respect of one off games like CL which are more suited to their style of football....
 
At the moment our best bet would probably be Carrick as the DLP with TFM as RCM and Pogba as LCM.
in terms of the future obviously Carrick needs to be replaced as he is getting old. Would love to see Weigl as out DLP.
 
I dont want to get into transfer speculation but if we look at this specific issue, we need to get Kroos,Modric,Verrati or if we want to make a cheap punt,there is a young player in the Bundesliga, Dahoud. If we dont ,Klopp or Pep will get him.Only 20 but plays a very wellrounded game
 
Carrick if he's fit is still the player who can do that role for us in the short term, along with the realisation he is still our most intelligent and responsible DM.
 
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Wilson Litchmore said:
I hear you but just saying world class isn't necessary. Kante is a prize example, and I'm not convinced playing for Leicester meant he looked any different than previous season and now at Chelsea. Yet would he look out of place in any top side....No. The terms your using are just too subjective. Also it's takes all sorts to win football matches and Portugal and Leicester proved this this year. The biggest issue for me is the culture of the football is the context of which you play the game. Would Barca, Real or Bayern win their respective leagues with the same frequency in the prem, don't think so but I think your right in respect of one off games like CL which are more suited to their style of football....
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Passing quality has been my main point the whole time, having CM's that can run around a lot and "put in a shift" as the pundits like to say, wont get you far in Europe, and sides like United have to build teams with both the PL and CL in mind. Whether it's Rooney at the #10 or Pogba in a 3 man midfield we need a CM that can play through the lines to them, especially against teams that sit back, as unlike say Liverpool we can't just press them into submission as the front 3 need to work as a dynamic unit for that style and with Ibra as the #9 a pressing game up top is not an option. Yesterday's game illustrated this to a T, with a player like Schneiderlin at the base who has no passing game Pogba and Herrera constantly had to come and get the ball which saw Rashford isolated, and this is also an issue when Fellaini plays, Rooney is miles from Zlatan as he has to come deeper as we have no one doing what Carrick has done for us for years, the only one that can in the current set up is Blind who has to step out of defense to distribute.

I am a big Rooney "hater" as they say, I think he's finished at the top level but he wasn't in the side yesterday and it shone a light on a deeper rooted issue in the make-up of the team. Pogba and Rooney are final 3rd players, Herrera, Fellaini and Schneiderlin are work horses or in Ander's case a final 3rd player if used in a 3. This leaves a disconnect between midfield and attack that sees us struggle to break teams down and sees our forwards often isolated.
 
Grylte said:
I did write in my next post that i meant he has potential to be this sort of player for the future, not a starting 11 every game for now.

That last comment is uncalled for in my opinion, the player did well the matches he got last year, and i do not mean to say he was 10/10 every game. I do think he was one of our better players in those matches, which i'm confident the ratings he got in here will show that many agree with me.
Attack the post, not the poster, drop the "rose tinted shit".
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Attack the poster? Er yeah right. Go calm you farm mate!
 
Isn't Javi Martinez the third-choice CB at Bayern behind Boating and Hummels? Seems like he'd be a good buy.

Maybe even William Carvalho? Definitely looked like he could pick a pass in the Euros, though he does come across as rather lackadaisical on the pitch. Not sure how that would translate to the prem. Just realised he's only 24 as well, so for someone his position I guess you could say he's still pretty young.
 
Carvalho? He doesn't strike me as someone who can control games. I was a bit jealous Arsenal got Xhaka. The role he's playing for Arsenal is exactly what Schneirdelin should be doing for us.
 
NinjaZombie said:
Carvalho? He doesn't strike me as someone who can control games. I was a bit jealous Arsenal got Xhaka. The role he's playing for Arsenal is exactly what Schneirdelin should be doing for us.
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Xhaka would have been perfect for us, he is Carrick with a bit more bite.

Schneiderlin was never meant to be that kind of player for us though. I think LvG tried to recreate the Schweinsteiger Bommel midfield from his time at Bayern. Schweinsteiger's injury problems ruined that though.
 
I still think we won't score enough goals with a 4-3-3 and Pogba as the AM, we need a number 10 like Griezmann to get us some goals from midfield and Pogba can chip in with 8-10 from number 8 in a deeper role.
 
There aren't many options available, so we can't be particularly picky about it. The best ready made solutions, either in the holding or the deep lying play maker role, already have clubs and it comes as no surprise that these clubs are among the favorites to win the CL year after year.

I might get the stick for saying that but i believe the situation with Fabregas at Chelsea may present an opportunity next summer and we should keep an eye on what's going on there. Cesc can relieve Pogba of any play making/ball carrying duties in deeper areas and Pogba's abilities to protect possession in tight areas high up the pitch can create spaces in between the lines for Cesc to get into.

They're also both very good on the ball which gives us the opportunity to look for breakwater/water carrier type of DM to play in front of the defense instead of a holding midfielder (they are very rare nowadays). Even Schneiderlin could play there if he can resist the urge to drift out of position and chase the ball all around.

* I acknowledge the Rooney conundrum and that what i wrote above means that he has no role in the team but a) i am just sick and tired of the Rooney discussion and b) i believe that a player like Cesc will present Jose an opportunity he will find very difficult to pass on.
 
Blind is our best pick currently. Surround him with Bailly, Smalling, Pogba and Herrera and there is no need to worry about him in midfield.
 
Our squad is absolutely fine. If we 'need' a DLP there are people like Daley Blind, Michael Carrick and Bastian Schweinsteiger in the squad who are capable.

Is this what it's going to be like every time the team puts in a bad performance? De Gea miss kicks it and opposition score so we make a thread called 'search for Goalkeeper good with ball at feet'.

Under Ferguson for the most part we'd play 4-4-2 using absolutely anyone in those two important positions and we'd dominate because the system as a whole was functional.

What we're seeing at the moment is a team which isn't functional so you even put the likes of Ander Herrera and Paul Pogba in and they struggle.

Our squad is absolutely fine, we have a world class player in every position throughout our spine for the first time in about 4 years.
 
We have a few good holding midfielders that together would make one perfect example, but as individuals they lack crucial attributes.

I think Pogba and Herrera make up our best midfield partnership at the moment.

If we could combine Fellainis strength with Blinds composure and penchant of being in the right place at the right time, with Schneiderlins defensive ability and Carricks passing range, we would be sorted.

If only Phil Jones wasn't a sick note.
 
Am sure Mourinho Spent his budget and spent it well the players he brought in were just as necessary and we have a great side and will compete, Next season I see Mourinho bringing in another Midfielder and full backs
 
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
our potential playmaker is injured. We need a player in the Weigl, Veratti or Busquets mold. We should break the bank for Veratti or Weigl. Else we go secure Willy Carvalho from Sporting, who can do an Ngolo Kante
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Mourinho won't buy players from sporting because Mendes is a persona non grata for the club, carvalho and adrien are two excelente players and Real Madrid scored only after adrien was not in the field, the 2 together make a very strong middle field.
 
JakeC said:
We have a few good holding midfielders that together would make one perfect example, but as individuals they lack crucial attributes.

I think Pogba and Herrera make up our best midfield partnership at the moment.

If we could combine Fellainis strength with Blinds composure and penchant of being in the right place at the right time, with Schneiderlins defensive ability and Carricks passing range, we would be sorted.

If only Phil Jones wasn't a sick note.
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I think if we're going to get the best from pogba we probably need to play three midfielders rather than two. Pogba's biggest strength is breaking with the ball from midfield into the attack so he's not always going to be in position when we lose the ball. That means that if he plays in a two man midfield then for large parts of the game we've only got one midfielder in place and we're very exposed to counter attacks through the middle. Ditch the 10 because with pogba he's probably not neccessary and get a proper holding midfielder or get someone within the club to fill that role.
 
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