Like this option, is he still at BM?
The search for a holding/controlling midfielder
- Thread starter bosnian_red
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Ssshhhh
Very under rated. In his pomp he was right up there alongside
the best midfielders of his type in the country. He was the one player Fabregas, at Arsenal, could never get the better of.
Didn't TFM give away a penalty in one game?
But you had a good balance. Essien as the all action midfielder and Lampard guaranteed to get you 20 goals. We don't have a number 10 looking capable of getting those sorts of figures currently.
Ruben Nevas?
He would be my pick
Though weigl or martinez could both be good options as well (though I imagine it would be easier to attain neves)
Good point.
But that's 2005-2008 and football has changed a lot since then. Defensive organisation has improved massively, probably as a reaction to the (r)evolution of possession play triggered by Guardiola/Aragonés in Spain and LVG in Germany. So maintaining a functioning build up and attacking play has gotten much harder against well organised teams sitting deep or pressing aggressively.
This Chelsea power trio you mentioned played in the heyday of PL dominance over Europe, right before that evolutionary step in football tactics. Today, a true top team needs to be much better in terms of playmaking from deep. And that's why I think a midfield like this (or Fellaini/Pogba for that matter) doesn't work that good anymore and threads like this one exist.
Blind's the best passer in our team and could do the job for us in a midifeld 3, unfortunately his passing range is also needed in defense, that became pretty clear last night when Smalling kept launching the ball 50 feet in the air. @Footyislife you seem to have gone awfully quiet on the subject...
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It is definitely something that needs looking at. Whatever way you spin it the balance of that midfield just isn't quite right and in the tight games it is causing us to go from dominating to looking really scrappy.
I do think the need for a playmaker is being overstated slightly though, as with a destroyer DM type player we would be controlling the game a lot more anyway than we currently are with our midfield being cut wide open.
Two B2B and a destroyer would work just as well as a deep lying playmaker I feel.
I do think the need for a playmaker is being overstated slightly though, as with a destroyer DM type player we would be controlling the game a lot more anyway than we currently are with our midfield being cut wide open.
Two B2B and a destroyer would work just as well as a deep lying playmaker I feel.
I'm a huge fan of the deep lying playmaker, but i'm beginning to agree.
A player like Saul would be fantastic. I wouldn't call him a playmaker, but he is very good at simply passing the ball forwards, besides that he is an excellent defender. He reminds me a bit of Roy Keane.
Schweinsteiger is easily the best option available at the club.
If we're going to have any faith in the manager at all (and god knows it's hard after watching our last two games) then we have to stop coming up with signings we need to make to get this team to function.
Mourinho made it quite clear in the summer that he identified what we needed and got what he wanted. Coming up with names of signings that will "fix" us is doing the manager a disservice. His United career (and our season) will live or die on his ability to build a winning team out of the players already at the club. That's something Mourinho obviously believes he can do, so it's a waste of time speculating about missing pieces in his jigsaw.
Mourinho made it quite clear in the summer that he identified what we needed and got what he wanted. Coming up with names of signings that will "fix" us is doing the manager a disservice. His United career (and our season) will live or die on his ability to build a winning team out of the players already at the club. That's something Mourinho obviously believes he can do, so it's a waste of time speculating about missing pieces in his jigsaw.
I agree, he's got plenty of options in midfield, he's also got a player base that is capable of playing a multitude of formations in several different ways. Time will tell I suppose.
Yeah my point exactly a destroyer that is just going to give the ball to the two b2b in front of him would work fine.
Schniderlin is turning into a nothing player as he isn't attacking enough for a b2b and isn't good enough defensively as a holder.
This.
Schweinsteiger Or Carrick, Jose need to play one of these two in DLP role along with Pogba and Herrera in three man midfield.
Well with schweinsteiger alienated it would be Carrick every game which won't work.
I wouldn't mind Herrera playing behind Pogba and Fellani on Sunday however Rooney is going to play as he was rested yesterday so it seems we'll see Pogba and another on Sunday.
Carrick can't play every game at the same time we need answer for our right wing,best way to keep every one happy is to move Rooney wide right and bring Carrick/Schneiderlin on top of defense in 3 man midfield.We are over relying on our left side to create anything and the whole right side depends on Valencia to create something.
He would be a great signing exactly what we need. The last couple of matches have shown we really need someone for this position.
But that forces the other CMs to fall back to get close to the defensive mid, because he doesn't have the passing range to get the ball into higher areas. Which in turn forces their potential passing options in attack to fall back deeper too, to keep connection to the CMs.
If you haven't got players who can comfortably complete more ambitious passes under pressure (= playmakers), your CM will either lose connection to the attack, or the whole team gets pushed back into deeper areas. And playing out of those deep areas effectively against a good pressing team will require exactly the type of players your hypothetical midfield lacks.
If the opponent chooses to sit deep, this midfield won't have the creativity and passing technique to play through the thicket of defenders.
The only style that you can play consistently with a setup like this is a strict counter-attacking style, where you mostly cede possession to the opponent.
I don't really agree. That's assuming the 2 b2b need to be symmetrical. Say we played TFM, Herrera and Pogba as the 3. Pogba could use his dribbling skills to move the ball up the pitch meaning the attackers don't have to drop. Plus Herrera has good dribbling along with good passing so again no reason for the attackers to drop.
Having a deep lying playmaker is being made out to be essential when in reality a minimal amount of teams actually play with one.
Real have Kroos but had to change his role to incorporate casemiro which then improved results.
Barcelona and Bayern play with one. But in our own league, City didn't have one last season and Chelsea won't have one this season really.
It's one of those little things in football that gets massively overblown as most defensive midfielders are capable of playing little 10-20 yard passes and feeding the most advanced midfielders.
Marco Verratti or Toni Kroos followed by Julian Weigl
And fecked up their build up play. The exact thing I described happens in every Real game with that setup: Both Kroos and Modric will drop deep to take over the build up play from Casemiro, because he can't do that. Therefore all three CMs start the attack right in front of their back four (Casemiro can't push up high effectively, too) and the presence in higher central midfield areas is often nonexistent. The whole thing is made worse by the fact that BBC likes to stay as high up as possible, which severes their midfield from their attack.
No, they generally can play 10-20 yards passes sideways under pressure, but not vertical through the opponents' lines. That would be exactly the DLP type of passing. So these destroyers do not get the ball in higher areas, they need to give it to players who can (and who in turn are absent as passing options higher up).
Call it controversial if you want but i'd rather play Fellaini in midfield than Blind.
In regards to a DM, I was surprised we didn't at least look at Kante I think he would of been a good signing but I suppose Jose wanted to give the likes of Schneiderlin and Fellaini chances first.
The point you're making is far to general. Only one team can win the CL and it helps if you have Messi, CR, Bale, Neymar et al. The difference ultimately comes down to the quality up front. Put these players in an Arsenal team, and they've would have won the CL in my opinion.
Break the bank.
We've got a target man to hit though unlike real. Plus I'm not convinced that a player such as TFM or Schniderlin couldn't hit a 20/30 yard ball forward to Pogba or Herrera.
The DLP that most people want is the pirlo/Scholes 'run the game' type player. I don't think we need that type of player to be successful with the team we have got.
Having world class players in each sector of the team is natural for top sides, but you need a base for the forward lines to play off no matter who they are, that means a technically excellent midfield that is the supply line for the forwards as well as the protection for the defense.
This.
Yes, of course a DLP is linked to a whole concept of setting up the team. And I don't expect Mourinho to suddenly develop a taste for that kind of setup. He was always a counter-attacking coach and relied on combative central midfielders rather than creative ones (he often chose Khedira over Modric at Real for example).
So let's just see what he has in mind. My prediction is that the midfield will struggle to keep possession and feed the offense against well organised teams this season. But I might be wrong of course.
Actually it's the lack of James playing in the hole rather than Casemiro's inability to build play. Kroos and Modric are similar players but they are not Trequartistas like James. They can't provide the cutting edge in the final third like what James can do. Having Casemiro in the team gives them better control in midfield. Before that Kroos had to do the bulk of defending in midfield which really is his main weakness. They were getting thrashed by Barca and Atletico. Their record against the big teams with Casemiro speaks for itself.
I know that's a widespread opinion, but I still stand with mine.
I completely agree with the James/trequartista part though, that's the logical consequence of installing a pure destroyer for a creative AM/CM (James, Isco, Kovacic). People often praise Casemiro for his defensive grit, but tend to overlook his negative effect on Real's attacking play.
Real's results under Zidane are good so far, but their structure is awful, both offensively and defensively. Wednesday's game was testament to both of that, and Sporting had the better midfield structure with lesser players when in possession. In my view Real get along in spite of that because of their immense individual quality, isolated moments of brilliance and their ability to mount comebacks when things have almost gone to shit.
Why not try Schweinsteiger in the role? He might get injured somewhere down the road, but we have Carrick as well.
Lad is talented but no where near experienced enough to be expected to control a midfield and have the positional awareness for such a role. I'd not expect any manager to make such a big ask of a very inexperienced young player. Not sure why you'd love to see him be given the chance, as he'd highly likely fail.
As for not seeing him do a mistake, your rose tinted glasses are very rose tinted.
Yes and is playing at CB at the moment. Wish we had signed him and Herrera together. They gave us hell when we played Bilbao.
Essien was a bison god. Man, I miss watching him play at his best. Just wish he signed for us back then.
Getting stuck in does not mean you can dictate and control a midfield. Modric can control the midfield flow, by utilising his experience, reading of the game and excellent passing ability. Mensah is not that type of player at all, he's not experienced enough & has never shown he'd be able to carry out the role. He's a defender who can play in midfield if required.