The search for a holding/controlling midfielder

Grylte said:
Agree with your face.
We don't really have good options, Carrick is a good shout, but not in the #8 playmaker role, as he falls back and play more as 6.
We saw last season that Rooney shouldn't be there.
If we just had Di Maria still :)
Maybe Mata or Micky?
Might not be good enough defensively.
Bring Pereira back ;)

Pogba-----Pereira
-------TFM

Think that might work for the future, Mou likes Pereira too.
All from academy...ish :)
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Pereira is a promising talent, but he's only on his first season of senior football out on loan, I don't think he's ready to take on such a huge role.

Wilson Litchmore said:
Depends how you intend to play them. Despite the haters, Felliani has not but a foot wrong this season and wasn't that bad the end of the last one. The problem for me is there is no system at the moment, and the team looks disjointed. Jose doesn't know his best team and zero pre-season didn't help...
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Fellaini has done fine this season as a destroyer, and as I mentioned in another post you can use that kind of limited destroyer if one of your other 2 CM's are great at using the ball and controlling the game. For instance Casemiro is doing the Fellaini job for Real, he's limited on the ball like Fellaini but will do the ugly stuff, however he has two world class playmakers in that midfield with him, we don't have that in this squad, we need to add one.
 
Rory 7 said:
I'd prefer Kante to all three of those. I think he's more dynamic. Playmaker? To be fair you can't say we haven't spent on that position.
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Who would you call a playmaker that we've bought? Micki and Mata aren't that, they are attackers, Pogba is an AM, Fellaini s a destroyer, Herrera and Schneiderlin are box to box workhorses, I don't see a proper playmaker in that selection, the type that gets on the ball with the game in front of him and pulls the strings.
 
Weigl, Jorginho, Gonalons are all options for the #6 position.

If we go with a pure destroyer at #6, someone like Tielemans could play the #8 role. It would be a big step up for him though, but he got the talent to be great.
 
I really wanted us to get gundogan would have been immense in a 3 or in a 2 with Pogba. Now? Parades of Roma who was on loan at Empoli looks good, Weigl looks quality would cost a bit though. William Carvalho but I worry about the defensive side of his game.
 
sullydnl said:
Though, thinking about it, Mourinho has managed without that Verratti type player in the past hasn't he?

Take the Makelele/Essien/Lampard midfield of his earlier Chelsea side. It's a strong and effective midfield but one without someone quite of the mold we're discussing in this thread.
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I think the game in the PL has changed since that side, and if we want to compete with the top dogs in the CL a CM that can dictate a game is usually vital.
 
Jaybomb said:
Play Mensah behind Schneiderlin and Pogba. Sorted.
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Am 18 year old who is more of a defender, behind Pogba and someone who goes missing 9 out of 10 games but is defensive anyway? What use would that be
 
Devil may care said:
Who would you call a playmaker that we've bought? Micki and Mata aren't that, they are attackers, Pogba is an AM, Fellaini s a destroyer, Herrera and Schneiderlin are box to box workhorses, I don't see a proper playmaker in that selection, the type that gets on the ball with the game in front of him and pulls the strings.
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Bastian, Mata, Herrera
 
Devil may care said:
Pereira is a promising talent, but he's only on his first season of senior football out on loan, I don't think he's ready to take on such a huge role.



Fellaini has done fine this season as a destroyer, and as I mentioned in another post you can use that kind of limited destroyer if one of your other 2 CM's are great at using the ball and controlling the game. For instance Casemiro is doing the Fellaini job for Real, he's limited on the ball like Fellaini but will do the ugly stuff, however he has two world class playmakers in that midfield with him, we don't have that in this squad, we need to add one.
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For me, like I've said previously, we are still in September. I don't think Jose knows his best team as we've had virtually zero preseason and soooo many players are finding their form and fitness, his teams looks set up more for winning games than anything else. The other issue is I'm not sure comparing how teams set up in other leagues is relevant. The prems more competitive and played at a different pace....
 
Devil may care said:
I think the game in the PL has changed since that side, and if we want to compete with the top dogs in the CL a CM that can dictate a game is usually vital.
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True, it would be much better to have that midfield orchestrator in the team.

In a worst case scenario where none are available though, at least we know our manager can construct a title winning team regardless.
 
Devil may care said:
Well Bastian's a crock but if he wasn't I'd agree, neither of the other two are playaker's, Herrera is a high energy hustler, like your guy Kante, and Mata is a SS floater.
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You mean deeplying playmaker then. Only Bastian I guess. Don't agree Herrera is box to box, he's being made play that role.
 
bosnian_red said:
Am 18 year old who is more of a defender, behind Pogba and someone who goes missing 9 out of 10 games but is defensive anyway? What use would that be
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Mensah is a natural CDM.

Remember Pogba plays mostly alongside Kante/Matuidi these days. It's too early to compare Mensah to Kante, but he's got similar attributes to him. Matuidi/Schneiderlin are also pretty similar players. So I don't see why it couldn't work.
 
Jaybomb said:
Mensah will get stuck in and control the tempo. He can be our Matic.
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I think you're confusing a controlling midfielder with a destroyer. Fosu-Mensah is not the answer.
 
Jaybomb said:
Mensah will get stuck in and control the tempo. He can be our Matic.
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But getting stuck in doesn't mean controlling the tempo, not at all. We've got Fellaini, Schneiderlin who can also get stuck in but neither of them controls the game.
 
Wilson Litchmore said:
For me, like I've said previously, we are still in September. I don't think Jose knows his best team as we've had virtually zero preseason and so many players are finding their form and fitness, his teams looks set up more for winning games than anything else. The other issue is I'm not sure comparing how teams set up in other leagues is relevant. The prems more competitive and played at a different pace....
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All of the time in the world isn't going to alter the fact none of our CM's bar Carrick have a top level passing game or the nous to control the tempo, they have other strengths but the balance of options in our midfield is off, we have 3 players who do the same worker bee job and a Rolls Royce AM, but as I say our only midfield brain is 35.

You are right that the PL is different, the hustle and workrate are still highly valued, but it's also why we are well behind in Europe right now, the technical class outplays our hustle and bustle approach in the big European games, maybe Guardiola will find the balance as he's certainly going for it with how he's set his midfield up with two high quality playmakers and an old fashioned destroyer at the base..
 
sullydnl said:
True, it would be much better to have that midfield orchestrator in the team.

In a worst case scenario where none are available though, at least we know our manager can construct a title winning team regardless.
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That's true, at least for now until we see if Guardiola moves the goalposts by trying to merge the best of both world's.

Rory 7 said:
You mean deeplying playmaker then. Only Bastian I guess. Don't agree Herrera is box to box, he's being made play that role.
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I mean a CM that can control a game, whether he's a #6 or #8. What do you think Herrera is then? To me his best attributes are his high energy and tenacity.
 
Weigl would be a dream signing, Verratti aside.
If TFM will progress like expected, Weigl orchestrating, plus physicality, tenacity and skill from Pogba and TFM... :drool:

Gueye is the one to keep an eye on - labeled as a Kante 2.0 (who himself is Makelele 2.0 :lol:), he is, while not so omnipresent, a much better passer. In his last game he completed 101 passes (out of 106), an impressive amount for the PL.
 
Devil may care said:
That's true, at least for now until we see if Guardiola moves the goalposts by trying to merge the best of both world's.



I mean a CM that can control a game, whether he's a #6 or #8. What do you think Herrera is then? To me his best attributes are his high energy and tenacity.
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I think he's technically better than other options. With a run in the side he could be our midfield leader.
 
Jaybomb said:
Mensah is a natural CDM.

Remember Pogba plays mostly alongside Kante/Matuidi these days. It's too early to compare Mensah to Kante, but he's got similar attributes to him. Matuidi/Schneiderlin are also pretty similar players. So I don't see why it couldn't work.
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Well it doesnt really work for France, thats why I wouldnt give him the same role. I usually look at him like a Gerrard type as I mentioned. Loads of qualities, but he isnt a holding mid, cant play in a midfield 2 and wont be the one to dictate play. Perfect in a midfield 3, and making forward runs, as long as the other midfielders bring the traditional midfield qualities like cobtrolling games and providing the defensive solidity.
 
Devil may care said:
All of the time in the world isn't going to alter the fact none of our CM's bar Carrick have a top level passing game or the nous to control the tempo, they have other strengths but the balance of options in our midfield is off, we have 3 players who do the same worker bee job and a Rolls Royce AM, but as I say our only midfield brain is 35.

You are right that the PL is different, the hustle and workrate are still highly valued, but it's also why we are well behind in Europe right now, the technical class outplays our hustle and bustle approach in the big European games, maybe Guardiola will find the balance as he's certainly going for it with how he's set his midfield up with two high quality playmakers and an old fashioned destroyer at the base..
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I'm not sure we are way behind Europe, just behind 3 of the best teams, which are the same 3 teams when we were winning everything. We have the quality just we haven't been able to find the right combination at mo. You might be right but I don't think it's about the DM, I think it's about balance. Pogba and Felliani aren't the right pairing imo
 
We still have one at the club.

The best option we have went to Juventus for 30m.
 
This is also why I don't understand Carrick and Schweinsteiger's marginalization from Mourinho so far this season. We actually really need them, it's not like we have Pirlo and Xavi ahead of them in the pecking order.
I hope today is the last we see of Schneiderlin holding. It's the same mistake Van Gaal made last season and he's just not that type of player. He will most likely never have the composure, positioning and awareness to play that role. He's a box-to-box defensive midfielder.
It's the only thing I don't understand, and disagree with from Mourinho so far.
 
Rory 7 said:
I think he's technically better than other options. With a run in the side he could be our midfield leader.
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I'd agree that Herrera is technically better than Fellaini and Schneiderlin, but he doesn't have the passing range or consistency to control a game, he'd be the dynamic worker part of the 3 man midfield in my ideal set up.

Wilson Litchmore said:
I'm not sure we are way behind Europe, just behind 3 of the best teams, which are the same 3 teams when we were winning everything. We have the quality just we haven't been able to find the right combination at mo. You might be right but I don't think it's about the DM, I think it's about balance. Pogba and Felliani aren't the right pairing imo
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I wasn't just referring to United or the big 3 teams though, top 6 PL teams are behind teams like Sevilla, Atletico and Dortmund as well as PSG bar City's one win over them, not just the 3 giants. Fellaini as the destroyer, Pogba as the AM and add a #8 playmaker and it could work IMO, just missing a piece.
 
Devil may care said:
I'd agree that Herrera is technically better than Fellaini and Schneiderlin, but he doesn't have the passing range or consistency to control a game, he'd be the dynamic worker part of the 3 man midfield in my ideal set up.



I wasn't just referring to United or the big 3 teams though, top 6 PL teams are behind teams like Sevilla, Atletico and Dortmund as well as PSG bar City's one win over them, not just the 3 giants. Fellaini as the destroyer, Pogba as the AM and add a #8 playmaker and it could work IMO, just missing a piece.
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But like I said, how can you say that when these teams are player in completely different leagues? PSG walk there league, Sevilla only turn up in the cup, Dortmund are a feeder club for Bayern and also play in a league of 3 teams as does Athetico. Also like I said, the style of football is completely different. You might be right but can't see how it can be based on comparing us to Euro teams....
 
Scholesy said:
He is more athletic than Verrati
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Only in terms of height. Verratti is faster, probably stronger too considering how he manhandled Matic a few years ago and definitely more agile. His tenacity certainly helps him too.
 
From the game today and a lot of the time under Van Gaal, Mata seemed to take on that controlling role where he gets on the ball a lot all over the pitch and tries to dictate the tempo. And a big problem with that is that is supposed to be our right winger, and when our right back is darmian like it was today, then we wipe out our entire right flank basically and rely on doing everything on the left side of the pitch where they can just congest it and crowd us out.
 
bosnian_red said:
Well it doesnt really work for France, thats why I wouldnt give him the same role. I usually look at him like a Gerrard type as I mentioned. Loads of qualities, but he isnt a holding mid, cant play in a midfield 2 and wont be the one to dictate play. Perfect in a midfield 3, and making forward runs, as long as the other midfielders bring the traditional midfield qualities like cobtrolling games and providing the defensive solidity.
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France got to the final of the Euros...
 
NYAS said:
I've been so repetitive about it, it's been clearly the most important position we've needed to strengthen for years and haven't done it. It was bizarre to hear people after the first 3 league wins say we didn't need one because "Fellaini was doing a good job there" and "Herrera can hold". The last few years have taught us to accept mediocrity.

Pogba was one half of the midfield structure sorted. The next is a real number 6. There's simply no alternative for the need of a holding midfielder that controls the tempo of the game.

There needs to be a distinction though. A controlling midfielder doesn't have to be a holding one, and the opposite isn't the case either. Each team adds to what it already has in terms of the midfield. Gundogan is a controlling midfielder in the way he plays but isn't a holder. It's the same for Modric, Real's holder is Kroos, and sometimes Casemiro. Busquets is a holder, but I wouldn't say he controls games per se through his technique and passing.

Because of our current midfield composition, and because of Pogba's qualities, what we need is a midfielder that is both a controller and a holder. This used to be Carrick. Someone like Alonso, Verratti or Kroos. Both are obviously unavailable. We need a holding passer, and the only player who I see can develop into a player good enough for where we want to be, that is somewhat attainable in the next few years is Julian Weigl.
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Good post, we've really got our work cut out in finding this type of player. We're essentially looking for a younger version of Carrick and I can't think of a ready-made option of that ilk attainable.

We'll most likely have to sign someone young and groom them into the role i.e. Weigl.
 
Wilson Litchmore said:
But like I said, how can you say that when these teams are player in completely different leagues? PSG walk there league, Sevilla only turn up in the cup, Dortmund are a feeder club for Bayern and also play in a league of 3 teams as does Athetico. Also like I said, the style of football is completely different. You might be right but can't see how it can be based on comparing us to Euro teams....
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I'm saying based on the fact PL teams are doing terrible in both Euro competitions in recent years, technically outclassed as our brute force PL style is undone by even the secondary Spanish and German teams. All the teams excelling now have technically superior midfield's, not just workhorses.
 
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