It is not poor. Best league in the world no doubt. We have been poor by our standards, but are still a good side obviously.
Part of the reasons why we don't look good is because the other sides knows how to defend against us and can do it.
The relative strength of the Premier League
- Thread starter Wumminator
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Part of the reasons why we don't look good is because the other sides knows how to defend against us and can do it.
Liverpool and United aside the top six is certainly weaker than last season, though that doesn't mean they're bad teams(arsenal aside) and leicester are very good
The rest of the league though is quite clearly better. No Huddersfield or Fulham this season
The rest of the league though is quite clearly better. No Huddersfield or Fulham this season
Liverpool are a very good team. City on their day...though even at their best they're still flawed as their method of defending is basically to hope they don't actually have to do any.
The rest are a long way off. Chelsea should already be out of the CL but for the worst refereeing display man has ever witnessed. Spurs were destroyed twice by a struggling Bayern side. If Arsenal or United were in the CL, they probably wouldn't be by now.
Last season was a bit of a false dawn. No denying Liverpool were good enough to be in a CL final, but Spurs were nowhere near being the second best team in Europe. United beat PSG but you'd have to put a weird spin on it to say they looked like the better side...then they were outclassed by Barcelona anyway. City are such a bunch of clowns they managed to go out to a team about 50 points behind them in their own league.
LIverpool and City have definitely raised the bar back up for English teams but the rest are still lagging so far behind you can barely see them. It's also hard to say the PL is THAT competitive when Liverpool have basically won every single game with ease. They're a good side but the rest of the league is making it look like Klopp is playing PES and is in the 6th season of Master League. Liverpool wouldn't have 19 wins out of 20 games in the Italian or Spanish leagues. Probably not even somewhere like Germany.
The rest are a long way off. Chelsea should already be out of the CL but for the worst refereeing display man has ever witnessed. Spurs were destroyed twice by a struggling Bayern side. If Arsenal or United were in the CL, they probably wouldn't be by now.
Last season was a bit of a false dawn. No denying Liverpool were good enough to be in a CL final, but Spurs were nowhere near being the second best team in Europe. United beat PSG but you'd have to put a weird spin on it to say they looked like the better side...then they were outclassed by Barcelona anyway. City are such a bunch of clowns they managed to go out to a team about 50 points behind them in their own league.
LIverpool and City have definitely raised the bar back up for English teams but the rest are still lagging so far behind you can barely see them. It's also hard to say the PL is THAT competitive when Liverpool have basically won every single game with ease. They're a good side but the rest of the league is making it look like Klopp is playing PES and is in the 6th season of Master League. Liverpool wouldn't have 19 wins out of 20 games in the Italian or Spanish leagues. Probably not even somewhere like Germany.
I don't mind a few of the top teams being worse if it makes things more competitive.
Hate seasons like last one when Man. United in sixth were a good ten points clear of 7th after that good run when OGS came in.
Hate seasons like last one when Man. United in sixth were a good ten points clear of 7th after that good run when OGS came in.
Honestly the mid table teams look better but Liverpool aside I don’t see any improvement on the top teams, don’t see any specific reason to say it’s the best league in the world beyond it’s popularity and marketing around the world. Surprise surprise is it was needed Klopp or Guardiola in the last season’s to make it a 1/2 horse race league with teams nearing the 100 hundred points limit. Maybe the so called competitive nature of the league used to dismiss the other leagues was a myth, basically 2/3 top coaches and money to invest had the same effect as elsewhere. 1/2 horse race league and a lot of show off, nothing more than that. Happy new year 
What the guy below said
Honestly the mid table teams look better but Liverpool aside I don’t see any improvement on the top teams, don’t see any specific reason to say it’s the best league in the world beyond it’s popularity and marketing around the world. Surprise surprise is it was needed Klopp or Guardiola in the last season’s to make it a 1/2 horse race league with teams nearing the 100 hundred points limit. Maybe the so called competitive nature of the league used to dismiss the other leagues was a myth, basically 2/3 top coaches and money to invest had the same effect as elsewhere. 1/2 horse race league and a lot of show off, nothing more than that. Happy new year
Honestly the mid table teams look better but Liverpool aside I don’t see any improvement on the top teams, don’t see any specific reason to say it’s the best league in the world beyond it’s popularity and marketing around the world. Surprise surprise is it was needed Klopp or Guardiola in the last season’s to make it a 1/2 horse race league with teams nearing the 100 hundred points limit. Maybe the so called competitive nature of the league used to dismiss the other leagues was a myth, basically 2/3 top coaches and money to invest had the same effect as elsewhere. 1/2 horse race league and a lot of show off, nothing more than that. Happy new year
What league is better though? Spain has declined both in the top and near the bottom.
Madrid and Barcelona are still strong, but the rest have dropped down in quality.
I don't follow leagues from South america, but they could be better to watch I guess.
In Europe though it is obvious that Premier league is the strongest at the moment.
Honestly the mid table teams look better but Liverpool aside I don’t see any improvement on the top teams, don’t see any specific reason to say it’s the best league in the world beyond it’s popularity and marketing around the world. Surprise surprise is it was needed Klopp or Guardiola in the last season’s to make it a 1/2 horse race league with teams nearing the 100 hundred points limit. Maybe the so called competitive nature of the league used to dismiss the other leagues was a myth, basically 2/3 top coaches and money to invest had the same effect as elsewhere. 1/2 horse race league and a lot of show off, nothing more than that. Happy new year
Liverpool haven't won the league in 30 years! Their finishes in the last 4 years have been 7,4,4,2 City have been 4,3,1,1. City are fighting for 2nd place this year. It's been a two horse race for 18 months! Although it usually is a two horse race ultimately but those two horses change more often than in other leagues. I do think the best measure is the UEFA coefficients as they give equal points to the performances of all the 7 teams from the top nations in Europe. in a 20 team league that's 35% of the teams in the league. England have been top for the past two season and are top at the half way point this year. That said, I'd be surprised if Spain don't top the coefficients for this season by the end of the year.
Last season the Premier League teams had a big advantage over the Spanish teams, this season is balanced, I only used the same arguments used here in the past to dismiss La Liga, what is happening now is what happened in the beginning of the decade between Barcelona vs Real Madrid, Guardiola vs Mourinho and money to invest, the only change is Klopp vs Guardiola (not this season anyway), not saying it’s crap, it’s only logic, money to invest + 2/3 top coaches in the world is equal to a 1/2 horse race league. What is the difference in quality between Barcelona/Madrid vs City or Leicester? Are they better just because they come from the Premier League? Liverpool aside what team is really favourite against a Superclub from the Continent? Imo none of this teams is, but yes it’s between England and Spain you will see the better teams in Europe, no surprise there.
@Classical Mechanic Read my post bellow, this wasn’t used to say it’s crap, only the same logic to what happened a few years ago elsewhere, there’s always differences, but between Spain and England will always come the overall better performances in Europe.
Fair enough. I like things like the coefficients though because they help take emotion and jingoism out of these debates. I think that England still has two really strong competitors in Liverpool and City whilst Spain does in Barca and Real. I think A Madrid have declined and Valencia are unimpressive, much like Chelsea are not capable of winning, Spurs under Mourinho who knows. I see City getting knocked out by Real but would fancy Liverpool to go ll the way again. That said, I don't think there's a real stand out team this year. I could see PSG finally doing something. In the EL I would say that the English sides are strong in that and could continue to dominate it. Inter will be one to watch as well.
Actually the other way around. The top is weaker, while the rest behind them got better. Espanyol pissed their EL group and they're dead last right now, teams like Real Sociedad and Sevilla are at least on the level of Wolves if not Leicester, Valencia have looked like the best team in chelsea's group(and in fact won the group) and are 7th...the only team i've seen that's really bad is Leganes
it's always fun to look back on the first few pages of this thread and see how fecking dumb @Wumminator was.
Honestly the mid table teams look better but Liverpool aside I don’t see any improvement on the top teams, don’t see any specific reason to say it’s the best league in the world beyond it’s popularity and marketing around the world. Surprise surprise is it was needed Klopp or Guardiola in the last season’s to make it a 1/2 horse race league with teams nearing the 100 hundred points limit. Maybe the so called competitive nature of the league used to dismiss the other leagues was a myth, basically 2/3 top coaches and money to invest had the same effect as elsewhere. 1/2 horse race league and a lot of show off, nothing more than that. Happy new year
The UEFA Coefficient suggests it's 2nd to La Liga (based on all teams' performance in European competition).
So calling it no.1 isn't a million miles off the mark.
The coefficients says that Spain is first over the 5 year period but the English league has been top of it in the past two and is top of it so far this season. If you look at the two oldest seasons in the 5 year ranking the Spanish league was miles ahead at that point. It's now pretty close between England and Spain with England just edging it these past two seasons.
remember when people tried arguing with me about this subject! I see not a lot of them posting in this thread nowadays.
Indeed. My point was that it's not crazy to call the Premier League the best.
I'd accept both England and Spain as credible answers.
I actually think the league would be pretty interesting if we got rid of the big clubs.
According to Wum’s logic this season PL is absolutely abysmal, utterly terrible and disgustingly bad which is what he always said about La Liga when two or three teams were clearly ahead of pack. Liverpool are basically playing in a different league this year, so...
Ultimately football will go like US sports, teams picked to be in the top division based on the big football "brands", where teams are located are and their economic potential for the league, no relegation, some kind of team re-balancing system, end of season playoffs for the title and probably a team level salary cap.
I think it's inevitable because fans of the 14 teams who just make the numbers up will stop bothering, the league becomes to boring ultimately and TV revenue will implode.
Also possible we'll see something similar at UEFA CL level with other big league teams.
Could take 20 years, but that is what will happen because it's the way of maximizing the value of the broadcasting rights / streaming rights in the long term imo. Since football these days revolves entirely around money, it's inevitable.
Premier League is, by far, the most competitive league in the world.
Just look at the 5th placed teams in the top 4 leagues:
1, EPL, Manchester United: 31 points, 21 games played (5th). Wins: 8/21
2. La Liga, Real Sociedad: 31 points, 18 games played (5th). Wins: 9/18
3. Serie A, Atalanta: 31 points, 17 games played (5th). Wins: 9/17
4. Bundesliga, Schalke: 30 points, 17 games played (5th). Wins 8/17
It shows how difficult is to win a game and, Liverpool aside, how balanced is the league.. 31 points after 21 games means that the 5th placed team could finish the season with only 31:21x38 = 56 points
Just look at the 5th placed teams in the top 4 leagues:
1, EPL, Manchester United: 31 points, 21 games played (5th). Wins: 8/21
2. La Liga, Real Sociedad: 31 points, 18 games played (5th). Wins: 9/18
3. Serie A, Atalanta: 31 points, 17 games played (5th). Wins: 9/17
4. Bundesliga, Schalke: 30 points, 17 games played (5th). Wins 8/17
It shows how difficult is to win a game and, Liverpool aside, how balanced is the league.. 31 points after 21 games means that the 5th placed team could finish the season with only 31:21x38 = 56 points
In 15/16 the PL got 14250 coefficients points and in 16/17 14928 points. It already has 14571 points this season. So while what you say may be correct in absolute terms and the league won't top the coefficients this season, in relative terms, the league is highly likely to prove that its comfortably stronger than it was in those seasons.
Certainly true about 15/16(leicester winning the league is all the proof you need) but 16/17 i'm not sure. Chelsea and Liverpool didn't play in europe that season, probably the main reason for the low uefa coefficient
The league does look weaker at the top outside of Liverpool and City compared to the last 3 seasons
Easily the best league. Norwich would fight for top 4 in all other big leagues .
.When teams like Watford and Everton have been battling relegation, it says to me that the bottom and middle level of the league is really high. And Liverpool and city are obviously among the best in Europe.
That's part of the reason the top four contenders among the "top six" are dropping more points. But the main reason is that the quality of Chelsea, Tottenham, Arsenal and united have dropped massively from what we've come to expect. The reason a 'top six' was talked about in the past is that all of them could potentially challenge for the title. These four look miles away from a title challenge right now, even in a normal season.
It's a bit of a tupsy turvy re-arrangement of quality in the league, definitely healthy for the league (outside of the top two running away with 97+ points to win the league for a third year running now). A team like Leicester look like they might begin to cement themselves in top four qualification if they can build on this whilst spurs, arsenal and united all look uncertain about where they go from here as a team for the next year or two. I don't know why spurs keep being so shit. On paper, they should be nailing top 3 at a canter.
That's part of the reason the top four contenders among the "top six" are dropping more points. But the main reason is that the quality of Chelsea, Tottenham, Arsenal and united have dropped massively from what we've come to expect. The reason a 'top six' was talked about in the past is that all of them could potentially challenge for the title. These four look miles away from a title challenge right now, even in a normal season.
It's a bit of a tupsy turvy re-arrangement of quality in the league, definitely healthy for the league (outside of the top two running away with 97+ points to win the league for a third year running now). A team like Leicester look like they might begin to cement themselves in top four qualification if they can build on this whilst spurs, arsenal and united all look uncertain about where they go from here as a team for the next year or two. I don't know why spurs keep being so shit. On paper, they should be nailing top 3 at a canter.
Watford and Everton would have been battling relegation in any top league. Their results had more to do with them and their finishing than anything their opponents did
We are an average side. Please do not think otherwise.
Are you seriously thinking that we are a good team? Defensively? Tactically? Midfield? Scoring goals? Managing games? Consistency?
How on earth could you describe us as a good side? We are average. Simple as. No more than that. Man Utd have had good sides in the past. This side is not one of them.
the alternative that the rest of the league has become stronger, which is what the coefficients points total so far suggests. The fact is that the 7th highest placed PL sides from last season are winning more European games than their counterparts from other European leagues so far this season.
Probably a bit of both, but comparing the rest of the league is an excercise in futility, as there's no real way to tell beyond personal opinion. In general i'm of the opinion that the level of the middle of the league tends to take a long time to change significantly. Mostly it's the top and bottom that have the biggest and quickest fluctuations
Relatively strong, but I don't think football is that great at the moment in terms of there being lots of great teams out there. So many of Europe's big clubs aren't what they were in recent to very recent times.
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I think the PL has definitely caught up tactically and therefore is a very strong candidate when asking which league is the best.
But please, please stop judging everything by names. Watford is a midtable side that appointed their fourth coach of the season before Christmas, the only thing their performance really says is that they have been a dysfunctional mess this season. Similarily Everton, who are on their third coach. Actually having them sit in pretty much literally midtable seems to be a soft punishment for such turmoil, considering they finished 8th the two previous seasons.
Maybe it is just you who define a good side very highly. Being on the top half of the league shows that we are a good side. Although we are United with big funds so should be a world class side which we are not due to poor management and recruitment.
Out of this world Liverpool
Amazing Leicester and City
Great Chelsea
Good Man United, Spurs, Wolves
Average would be teams in the middle like Newcastle and Crystal Palace.
Poor would be Norwich and Bournemouth at the moment.
Although things can change with new managers, injuries, form and so on.
Watford and Everton were having low-key 14/15 Dortmund seasons. In fact in both cases the managerial changes didn't do much beyond inject energy. They're still playing as well as they were at the beginning of the season, it's just that now they're also getting the results they deserve
That's possible I haven't watched both of them enough to argue that, but even if what you're saying is true my point remains the same. When most teams underperform it's not because everyone else has become better over night, it's because they aren't performing as good as they want to be.
Mismanagement is one possible explanation, sometime bad luck really is another valid one.
Just read through first three pages. Apart from his factual statements and opinions, he was spot on.
(tbf, still took the time to do the all time United players thread.... twice. Liked that one.)
Think I've already said this but I don't mind top teams being weaker if it means the overall league feels more competitive.
The example of this is pretty much every season in the 90s when titles could be won with less than 80 points (Man. United and Arsenal in late 90s both won league with 75-80 points and were fantastic teams) and teams would go down with pretty much 40 points.
Liverpool and others winning with 100 points and being 20-30 points clear of 3rd leaves me cold as does teams staying up on 34 points. That shouldn't be happening in 38 game seasons.
Guess I'd ask the fans of foreign teams in this thread which leagues they prefer. The ones where Ronaldo and Messi were in god form for 4-5 seasons and so Real Madrid and Barca would breeze past 90 points and hardly anyone could get close or again the seasons in the 90s/early 00s when the big two were fighting for title but a few winless games and a Deportivo or Valencia could pounce and win the league. 06/07 was perhaps the most recent example. Real Madrid won it but think Sevilla were only 2-3 points off the title that season.
Same with Bayern Munich dropping about 5 points up to March in the Pep era. Can't believe any neutral would prefer that to what we have in the Bundesliga this season with 'Gladbach and Leipzig challenging well this year.
Same for Juventus and well the French league is generally a special case these days.
The example of this is pretty much every season in the 90s when titles could be won with less than 80 points (Man. United and Arsenal in late 90s both won league with 75-80 points and were fantastic teams) and teams would go down with pretty much 40 points.
Liverpool and others winning with 100 points and being 20-30 points clear of 3rd leaves me cold as does teams staying up on 34 points. That shouldn't be happening in 38 game seasons.
Guess I'd ask the fans of foreign teams in this thread which leagues they prefer. The ones where Ronaldo and Messi were in god form for 4-5 seasons and so Real Madrid and Barca would breeze past 90 points and hardly anyone could get close or again the seasons in the 90s/early 00s when the big two were fighting for title but a few winless games and a Deportivo or Valencia could pounce and win the league. 06/07 was perhaps the most recent example. Real Madrid won it but think Sevilla were only 2-3 points off the title that season.
Same with Bayern Munich dropping about 5 points up to March in the Pep era. Can't believe any neutral would prefer that to what we have in the Bundesliga this season with 'Gladbach and Leipzig challenging well this year.
Same for Juventus and well the French league is generally a special case these days.
It's probably the poorest season of the PL of all time.
The fact is, Liverpool aren't an isolated case. City have won the league twice with 96+ points. Chelsea have won it with 96+ points. All in the space of 5 or 6 years.
The problem you have is the standard of players has improved, but because the teams in the PL now have so much money, it's dropped the overall standard of team.
Back when teams had little money, they were almost forced to run a club properly - sign players only when necessary, and concentrate on building a strong team rather than buying strong players like they do now.
Look at Sheffield. No big name players and yet they're 5th. You can even put Liverpool on that bracket - on paper who's really world class? Allison, VVD, maybe TAA.... but that's about it.
I think the FA need to look at possibly giving less money to the big teams and investing straight back into grass roots football. Otherwise people will lose interest in the PL, and they in turn will lose their money.
The fact is, Liverpool aren't an isolated case. City have won the league twice with 96+ points. Chelsea have won it with 96+ points. All in the space of 5 or 6 years.
The problem you have is the standard of players has improved, but because the teams in the PL now have so much money, it's dropped the overall standard of team.
Back when teams had little money, they were almost forced to run a club properly - sign players only when necessary, and concentrate on building a strong team rather than buying strong players like they do now.
Look at Sheffield. No big name players and yet they're 5th. You can even put Liverpool on that bracket - on paper who's really world class? Allison, VVD, maybe TAA.... but that's about it.
I think the FA need to look at possibly giving less money to the big teams and investing straight back into grass roots football. Otherwise people will lose interest in the PL, and they in turn will lose their money.
I didn't read the rest after the first line. The worst season was 2016 by far, yes Leicester won but that was only because everyone else was complete piss. In Europe only City went beyond the R16 in the UCL while Liverpool did reach the Europa League final because they gave up on their season. It was brilliant season for the story but the standard of clubs in that season was poor compared to the rest.
I think the standard in world football pales in comparison 10/15 years ago.
I think Brazilian Ronaldo would have scored twice as many goals if he came about the same time as Messi & C Ronaldo.
I also think defenders of the previous time period where of a much higher calibre.
Players like Keane & Viera for example would ruin the league now.
The things that we have now is more players comfortable with the ball from Goalkeeper forward.
They are also faster and fitter.
Of course there are players today that would be amazing in any era, I just feel that pool is smaller than the 00s
I expect many to disagree but that's fine, it's just my opinion
I think Brazilian Ronaldo would have scored twice as many goals if he came about the same time as Messi & C Ronaldo.
I also think defenders of the previous time period where of a much higher calibre.
Players like Keane & Viera for example would ruin the league now.
The things that we have now is more players comfortable with the ball from Goalkeeper forward.
They are also faster and fitter.
Of course there are players today that would be amazing in any era, I just feel that pool is smaller than the 00s
I expect many to disagree but that's fine, it's just my opinion