The relative strength of the Premier League

Tango80 said:
It's probably the poorest season of the PL of all time.

The fact is, Liverpool aren't an isolated case. City have won the league twice with 96+ points. Chelsea have won it with 96+ points. All in the space of 5 or 6 years.

The problem you have is the standard of players has improved, but because the teams in the PL now have so much money, it's dropped the overall standard of team.

Back when teams had little money, they were almost forced to run a club properly - sign players only when necessary, and concentrate on building a strong team rather than buying strong players like they do now.

Look at Sheffield. No big name players and yet they're 5th. You can even put Liverpool on that bracket - on paper who's really world class? Allison, VVD, maybe TAA.... but that's about it.

I think the FA need to look at possibly giving less money to the big teams and investing straight back into grass roots football. Otherwise people will lose interest in the PL, and they in turn will lose their money.
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Not according to the bookies who hold City as the favorite to win CL with Pool second and us and Arsenal as top 5 favorites in the Europa league.

I think it is probably one of the overall strongest seasons we have had though. Last year was above this one.
The Gerrard slip season was pretty strong near the top, but the bottom half was pretty poor.
I like the 2008/2009 season apart from the final loss to Barcelona, but not sure it was better. Pool was strong that year and us. Chelsea struggled before they got Hidink in.
Arsenal had a normal Arsenal under Wenger season.
Everton had a normal Moyes season although knocked us out in the Fa cup sadly. Villa was fun I think with Agbonlahor and Young back then, but no world beaters.
2007/2008 was similar although Chelsea was stronger and Pool worse. Better for us since we won the CL.
 
Steve Bruce said:
I think the standard in world football pales in comparison 10/15 years ago.

I think Brazilian Ronaldo would have scored twice as many goals if he came about the same time as Messi & C Ronaldo.

I also think defenders of the previous time period where of a much higher calibre.

Players like Keane & Viera for example would ruin the league now.

The things that we have now is more players comfortable with the ball from Goalkeeper forward.

They are also faster and fitter.

Of course there are players today that would be amazing in any era, I just feel that pool is smaller than the 00s

I expect many to disagree but that's fine, it's just my opinion
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I disagree with that. What makes you think defending is much worse now?
I think it is more that attacking play has improved.
As you said players are better with the ball and the passing is better.
Also think teams press better these days.

If you only talk about Man United you might be right though. Vidic and Ferdinand was top class.
We could need them at their peak again.
Not sure Keane would dominate at all given that we got faster and fitter players now.
Although they seem to not give many red cards now so he might survive if we get him up to speed.
 
It's a shambles at the moment. The poorest I've seen across Europe for many many years.
Too many examples to use so not going to bother.
 
Josh 76 said:
It's a shambles at the moment. The poorest I've seen across Europe for many many years.
Too many examples to use so not going to bother.
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I like to ask why? Given how well all sides did in europe last year. All sides have done well in europe so far this season apart from Spurs.
Sheffield doing well as a newly promoted side too. Villa being alright.
Norwich poor though, but still better than Huddersfield last year.

I know we are shambles on many levels, but why do you mention the rest of the league as it too?
Is it not hyperbole though?
If not then you must rate all european teams low too given that Spurs and Pool reached a CL final last year. Are there any good sides? If not why?
Probably just hyperbole to claim there are none.
 
Tango80 said:
Look at Sheffield. No big name players and yet they're 5th. You can even put Liverpool on that bracket - on paper who's really world class? Allison, VVD, maybe TAA.... but that's about it.
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Wow. Really?

There's so much wrong with that post I don't know where to begin. You're compairing a newly promoted team who's doing ok in the league with the current European Champions, record breaking PL team?

You mention TAA MAY be world class and you don't even bother to place Salah, Mane in the same sentence? Salah is possibly our best player this season.

Anyway, the league isn't poor. There are so much strong teams like Wolves, Leicester, Sheffield. What makes it look like that is that the big teams are all going through transition.

It's easy to say the league is pure shit when your team is doing badly. Try giving it a neutral perspective and you'll see the difference.
 
In my opinion, league is as strong as ever, arguably stronger than ever. Some traditionally big teams are in a transitional phase, but the overall quality is high. It's just a season that unfolded in an unexpected way.
 
Stocar said:
In my opinion, league is as strong as ever, arguably stronger than ever. Some traditionally big teams are in a transitional phase, but the overall quality is high. It's just a season that unfolded in an unexpected way.
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I think people do not remember the old midtable sides. We had Pulis and Big Sam around for many years. Moyes was a top 6 manager for around 10 years.
Going back even further I would personally not know enough about the teams, but I doubt the likes of Blackburn when they won it played amazing football.
I don't think the football was better 30+ years ago either. Even though that was long before my time.

I do think 8-20 is stronger now than it has ever been to be honest. 4-7 weaker though.
 
TheOx said:
Wow. Really?

There's so much wrong with that post I don't know where to begin. You're compairing a newly promoted team who's doing ok in the league with the current European Champions, record breaking PL team?

You mention TAA MAY be world class and you don't even bother to place Salah, Mane in the same sentence? Salah is possibly our best player this season.

Anyway, the league isn't poor. There are so much strong teams like Wolves, Leicester, Sheffield. What makes it look like that is that the big teams are all going through transition.

It's easy to say the league is pure shit when your team is doing badly. Try giving it a neutral perspective and you'll see the difference.
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That's what we are saying.
This is Utds worst team in living memory and we are one win away (a week on Monday) from being 3 points of a CL place. It's fecked up.

Add to that we have taken points off the "world" champions.
 
Paul_Scholes18 said:
I do think 8-20 is stronger now than it has ever been to be honest. 4-7 weaker though.
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I agree. It will probably be different next season, this year Liverpool seem to have all the momentum, while other top teams get nothing. Like that Leicester season.
 
Stocar said:
I agree. It will probably be different next season, this year Liverpool seem to have all the momentum, while other top teams get nothing. Like that Leicester season.
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Yeah I bloody hope we get a new manager and some good signings in.
Hopefully Pogba stays and avoids injuries next season too.
If so we should be able to push higher. Maybe even really high if Pep leaves and Pool for some reason fall apart.
Don't think Pool will do it, but if Van Dijk gets injured who knows.
City should be strong even without Pep, but they could mess it up too.
 
Tango80 said:
It's probably the poorest season of the PL of all time.

The fact is, Liverpool aren't an isolated case. City have won the league twice with 96+ points. Chelsea have won it with 96+ points. All in the space of 5 or 6 years.

The problem you have is the standard of players has improved, but because the teams in the PL now have so much money, it's dropped the overall standard of team.

Back when teams had little money, they were almost forced to run a club properly - sign players only when necessary, and concentrate on building a strong team rather than buying strong players like they do now.

Look at Sheffield. No big name players and yet they're 5th. You can even put Liverpool on that bracket - on paper who's really world class? Allison, VVD, maybe TAA.... but that's about it.

I think the FA need to look at possibly giving less money to the big teams and investing straight back into grass roots football. Otherwise people will lose interest in the PL, and they in turn will lose their money.
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Bolder bit, never thought about this but it’s actually a very good point.
I look at teams like West Ham and Everton who have been chucking money around for a few years and are as bad as they’ve been for a while. So many failed signings and then you’ve got the Villa and Fulham cases.

Salah, Mane and Firmino definitely world class though,
 
UCL Ro16:

Real Madrid - Manchester City
Atletico - Liverpool
Chelsea - Bayern
Tottenham - RB Leipzig

Those games will test EPL's reputation as the best league in the world.
 
United, Chelsea and Arsenal have had a noticeable drop in squad quality but more importantly they're all missing top managers which is why they have dropped off. Spurs have lost their edge after pushing so hard the last few seasons so have dropped off. So those 4 teams are definitely all worse than they have been in a while. The rest of the league however I think is stronger than it ever has been. There are some really good players in some of these mid table teams that could easily get into top clubs around Europe plus they're all being coached really well and have more money than they ever have before. The middle 15 teams all being so close and taking points from each other has allowed City and Liverpool to run away with it in the last few seasons. So in summary I think the league as a whole is strong compared to the rest of Europe but 4 of the big six have just dropped off a few levels.
 
Mr Parker said:
United, Chelsea and Arsenal have had a noticeable drop in squad quality but more importantly they're all missing top managers which is why they have dropped off. Spurs have lost their edge after pushing so hard the last few seasons so have dropped off. So those 4 teams are definitely all worse than they have been in a while. The rest of the league however I think is stronger than it ever has been. There are some really good players in some of these mid table teams that could easily get into top clubs around Europe plus they're all being coached really well and have more money than they ever have before. The middle 15 teams all being so close and taking points from each other has allowed City and Liverpool to run away with it in the last few seasons. So in summary I think the league as a whole is strong compared to the rest of Europe but 4 of the big six have just dropped off a few levels.
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Who are these players? And which are the teams being well coached?
 
Eddy_JukeZ said:
:lol:

What?
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Just a joke. I don't think we count as mid table yet anyway.
Don't think we have any midtable world beaters too in the league.

Richarlison maybe. Grealish if you stretch it. Traore on his good day. Henderson for us hopefully :).
 
I just hope @Josh 76 is completely correct on the weakness of the PL and it lasts for another three years at least. That should hopefully give us 21 league titles. Then everyone else can get strong again. Please God let it happen. :angel:
 
Dumbstar said:
I just hope @Josh 76 is completely correct on the weakness of the PL and it lasts for another three years at least. That should hopefully give us 21 league titles. Then everyone else can get strong again. Please God let it happen. :angel:
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You are weak and shit too so no more titles for you. Next year Newcastle and Sheffield will fight for it!
 
Paul_Scholes18 said:
Just a joke. I don't think we count as mid table yet anyway.
Don't think we have any midtable world beaters too in the league.

Richarlison maybe. Grealish if you stretch it. Traore on his good day. Henderson for us hopefully :).
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Zaha at Palace too.
 
If Liverpool had lost 7 games this season in the PL, they would still be top.
Says it all!
 
Markolan said:
UCL Ro16:

Real Madrid - Manchester City
Atletico - Liverpool
Chelsea - Bayern
Tottenham - RB Leipzig

Those games will test EPL's reputation as the best league in the world.
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How will that test the rep? Would all 4 need to win? or 2?
 
English football is at lowest in terms of quality since the early 90's. Don't be fooled into last season believing that English football was becoming a powerhouse again

Bar City and Liverpool, every team is in a sharp decline in terms of quality and consistently.
 
Wayne's World said:
English football is at lowest in terms of quality since the early 90's. Don't be fooled into last season believing that English football was becoming a powerhouse again

Bar City and Liverpool, every team is in a sharp decline in terms of quality and consistently.
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Your talking absolute nonsense. The Prem in the early 90’s was nowhere near the level its at now on average.

I understand the top sides apart from Liverpool and City are pretty poor but in the early 90’s the Prem league was the French league essentially strength wise due to the European ban after Heysel I believe.
 
A tough ask without Son and Kane and really beaten by a pen.

I feel the whole of Europe is in a funk at the moment though. Last years results don't reflect well on the rest of Europe either, the PL was sliding and continues to and worse than 2016 bar the top two. We'll see how well English teams do in this and next season.

Some teams in Italy and Germany are on an upwards trajectory. I remember a Spurs fan quoted me last year saying he couldn't see the PL dropping as I posted saying I could things changing, how fast fortunes can change at Spurs eh.

Soon as Dortmund signed Haaland I thought they could go from swanning in and out of the top 4 to become challengers and go further in the CL, he's that good.

Some coaches left England and went to Italy, players left the PL too, and some get old and Germany have some top new blood there, doesn't take much to swing in anothers favour.

For all the talk and groans of Premier League money, Spurs couldn't buy a striker.
 
Wayne's World said:
English football is at lowest in terms of quality since the early 90's. Don't be fooled into last season believing that English football was becoming a powerhouse again

Bar City and Liverpool, every team is in a sharp decline in terms of quality and consistently.
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Apart from United what other team did anything of note in the late 90’s?
 
Leroy The Red said:
Bolder bit, never thought about this but it’s actually a very good point.
I look at teams like West Ham and Everton who have been chucking money around for a few years and are as bad as they’ve been for a while. So many failed signings and then you’ve got the Villa and Fulham cases.

Salah, Mane and Firmino definitely world class though,
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Player quality to me in the top teams were higher just over a decade ago when you look at spines of the top teams.

Man. United

VDS- Neville-Rio-Vidic-Evra-Carrick-Ronaldo-Tevez-Rooney-Berbatov....no need to say really

Man. City- Obviously stronger now but they're an exceptional case. Still had some decent players from the takeover but not the manager or mentality.

Chelsea- Cech-Terry-Carvalho-Cole- Makelele-Essien- Lampard-Ballack-Joe Cole-Drogba- far stronger.

Arsenal- Almunia-Sagna-Gallas-Toure-Fabregas-Hleb-Rosicky- Van Persie-Adebayor- Arsenal also stronger than they are now in most areas but ultimately Wenger losing his touch downgraded from consistant title challengers.

Liverpool- Reina-Hyypia-Carragher-Alonso-Mascherano-Gerrard- Torres......Now this is the interesting one. Liverpool certainly have far better options at full back and either side of the main striker now and Van Dijk and Allison are better than those listed but defensively they were very strong in those days and that central midfield trio is better than what they put out now. Ultimately Benitez rotated a little too much and they dropped too many points against lower half points to win the title. Still a very good side though.

Spurs= Very close. A decade ago they had Ledley King, Bale, Modric, Van Der Vaart, Robbie Keane, Berbatov, Defoe as regular options over a 3 year period.

Everton- Howard- Lescott-Jagielka- Baines-Fellani- Neville-Arteta-Cahill-Pienaar-Yakubu. Moyes did good work in those days.

Villa- Friedel- Dunne-Cuellar-Milner-Barry-Petrov-Young-Gabby-Carew. Not a bad selection of players there given some of the clubs they ended up at when the Lerner money eased off.

Golden period of premier league was imo 2006-10. Don't think it has reached as high a level since from collection of teams even if likes of Man. City and Liverpool had had individual outstanding seasons.

Generally reflected in european performances aswell.
 
The top leagues are mostly set in stone now. Supporters from England, Spain, Germany, Italy talking about being on the decline, not as good as we were 5 years ago and so on is usually just for dick measuring about fairly small differences at the very top of the sport, who is going to get the most teams into very late stages of Europe etc

What really matters is if your league is good enough to develop a large amount of international class and elite players without most of them having a large chance of needing to move to reach their full potential. Looking at the uefa league coefficients the highest ranked leagues that are likely to be in this need to move at some point category are Portugal, Russia, Belgium, Netherlands, Ukraine, Turkey... for these leagues and the ones below them the stakes are bigger when talking about decline/improvement because they are already on the outside looking in financially. France is in a bit of a middle ground where they get most of their talent poached compared to the 4 above, but would quickly match and possibly overtake some of those 4 if they didn't as their systems and talent production are that strong.
 
redshaw said:
A tough ask without Son and Kane and really beaten by a pen.

I feel the whole of Europe is in a funk at the moment though. Last years results don't reflect well on the rest of Europe either, the PL was sliding and continues to and worse than 2016 bar the top two. We'll see how well English teams do in this and next season.

Some teams in Italy and Germany are on an upwards trajectory. I remember a Spurs fan quoted me last year saying he couldn't see the PL dropping as I posted saying I could things changing, how fast fortunes can change at Spurs eh.

Soon as Dortmund signed Haaland I thought they could go from swanning in and out of the top 4 to become challengers and go further in the CL, he's that good.

Some coaches left England and went to Italy, players left the PL too, and some get old and Germany have some top new blood there, doesn't take much to swing in anothers favour.

For all the talk and groans of Premier League money, Spurs couldn't buy a striker.
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I feel this too.

Bayern - one of their weakest teams ever. Check.
Real Madrid - one of their weakest versions of their team. check.
Barcelona - Same as above.
Juventus - a good team but nothing really to shout home about or be scared about, still using players they used almost 2 decades ago.
PSG are unfortunately for them a club full of players on parties and panties.
Liverpool are good.
Atheltico have no firepower.



I can go on but - nothing really sticks too loud like they used to.



For me - the strength of the premier league was never about the strength of the Top 4 teams, because they have always relatively been disappointing in the CL in comparison to the Spanish or Italian clubs for example who have been way more consistent back in the past at least.

The strength of the Premier league was the quality of the rest of the league - the type of player that you would see spread across the rest of the league in comparison to being only spread across the the top quarter or half of the league as seen across the rest of the world.

You have players like Neves, Sander Berge, Rice, Grealish, Buendia, Doucore, Lewis Cook, Max Meyer, Hojberj etc spread across random clubs and that's just not any of the bigger clubs and that's just some random midfielders I picked out.

That's the quality of the premier league & to me - whilst removing that to have only a few top clubs spread the best talent across them whilst everyone else feeds for scraps would benefit us - I really wouldn't change that for the world.

**** that.
 
Liverpool are an outlier - not the average representation of the premier league. They are concurrently also European champions; making them, unfortunately, and arguably, the best team in the world right now. Remove them from the discussion and the premier league is just fine. You have 'mid-table' teams punishing complacent quality 'top 6' teams consistently throughout the year - as any competitive league should do.

I sense this topic was bumped randomly because of Liverpool and Spurs past 2 day failures? Quite knee jerk. Spurs are playing without a striker and have a Mourinho. Liverpool will smash them at Anfield. We all know not to form any thoughts on one leg of a tie...
 
Bebestation said:
The strength of the Premier league was the quality of the rest of the league - the type of player that you would see spread across the rest of the league in comparison to being only spread across the the top quarter or half of the league as seen across the rest of the world.

You have players like Neves, Sander Berge, Rice, Grealish, Buendia, Doucore, Lewis Cook, Max Meyer, Hojberj etc spread across random clubs and that's just not any of the bigger clubs and that's just some random midfielders I picked out.

That's the quality of the premier league & to me - whilst removing that to have only a few top clubs spread the best talent across them whilst everyone else feeds for scraps would benefit us - I really wouldn't change that for the world.

**** that.
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And you think lesser teams in other leagues don't have good players? For example Hertha with all their "stars", Bremen with Rashica and Kruse (last season), Augsburg with Max? Or Bilbao and Betis in Spain?
 
do.ob said:
And you think lesser teams in other leagues don't have good players? For example Hertha with all their "stars", Bremen with Rashica and Kruse (last season), Augsburg with Max? Or Bilbao and Betis in Spain?
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Well, you just need to look at Atalanta to take that conclusion imo.
 
Weird bump!

Spurs lose at home against a very good Leipzig side, missing their two best players and main attacking threat

Spurs are also not currently in the CL spaces in their own league, and it was a tight game.

It doesn’t really suggest anything about the quality of the league.
 
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