The relative strength of the Premier League

[Massive Spanner]

Spanner, I'll respond well to people who deserve it. I respect Balu he is coming across well and making detailed posts. I have no idea how that post makes me a WUM and neither do you.

Or people who aren't proving your statements to be contradictory? I haven't seen a response to my latest post - maybe I'm 'not worthy', though.

I'm saying you're a WUM because it's the only logical explanation. The PL in 2010 actually had really strong teams, ones that did well in European competitions. Now we have Leicester at the top of the league and three of the big four clubs could potentially finish outside of the top four. And I'm sure you'll try to counter that with 'well that shows how strong the other teams are' - except that would be wrong too, because the big teams are doing awful in Europe too.

 

[Dr. Funkenstein]

They're able to do it every season as of now, and over 38 game season's in La Liga. It appears that they are indeed a really good team, and less is down to chance than you think.

The last bit I agree with, but you also have to look at what is feasible. For them to dominate like that they need dominant players, and that will take time. They aren't going to match Real Madrid's set of attacking stars any time soon, so they have to find other ways to compete, which they are doing very well.

I admire them for it, they are the underdog by size, money and nature, they challenge the bigger guys and do it well. I like underdogs in genera, l'm just saying that the step form beeing an underdog who can trip the top dogs, to becoming a top dog themselves is a very big one. Winning is one thing, you don't have to be the best to win stuff, but beeing the best comes with the obligation to force your will upon the opponent, to take the initiative and not be just reactive. That requires attacking football and the ability to get and keep possession and create chances against an organized defense and a team sitting back, and that's just a harder kind of football to play well.

Anywhere in the world, from pub teams to pro's, if you face a much better opponent and you want to stand a chance, sit back and gamble on the counter. That will make you look better, it forces them to really show how much better they are, they will have to do the more difficult stuff like creating from tight spaces. And if you don't, you'll be forced to defend and forced back anyway, just because they are better. Quality and tactics are closely connected, but if you get them spot on you can very good and even win a league with defensive tactics with players of lesser quality, and you can even win a tournement like the CL. And Atletico are a really good team like that. But real supremacy, doing it without gambling and with control, that's only for the better players with attacking tactics.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

I admire them for it, they are the underdog by size, money and nature, they challenge the bigger guys and do it well. I like underdogs in genera, l'm just saying that the step form beeing an underdog who can trip the top dogs, to becoming a top dog themselves is a very big one. Winning is one thing, you don't have to be the best to win stuff, but beeing the best comes with the obligation to force your will upon the opponent, to take the initiative and not be just reactive. That requires attacking football and the ability to get and keep possession and create chances against an organized defense and a team sitting back, and that's just a harder kind of football to play well.

Anywhere in the world, from pub teams to pro's, if you face a much better opponent and you want to stand a chance, sit back and gamble on the counter. That will make you look better, it forces them to really show how much better they are, they will have to do the more difficult stuff like creating from tight spaces. And if you don't, you'll be forced to defend and forced back anyway, just because they are better. Quality and tactics are closely connected, but if you get them spot on you can very good and even win a league with defensive tactics with players of lesser quality, and you can even win a tournement like the CL. And Atletico are a really good team like that. But real supremacy, doing it without gambling and with control, that's only for the better players with attacking tactics.

I don't disagree with any of that. Achieving proper dominance and control, and becoming another Real or Barca, for Atletico Madrid, will be very difficult, and I'd argue that it might not even be possible given the resources of the elite clubs. What they've achieved already under Simeone is nothing short of phenomenal.

But nevertheless, as things stand, by hook or by crook, they've managed to become a top side, and are far better than us.

 

[Massive Spanner]

I don't disagree with any of that. Achieving proper dominance and control, and becoming another Real or Barca, for Atletico Madrid, will be very difficult, and I'd argue that it might not even be possible given the resources of the elite clubs. What they've achieved already under Simeone is nothing short of phenomenal.

But nevertheless, as things stand, by hook or by crook, they've managed to become a top side, and are far better than us.

Aren't Atletico in an excellent position financially now though? With the new stadium and increased stature (meaning increased revenue) I'd say they'll have pretty big transfer budgets. Obviously not to the extent Barca & Real do but still enough to compete with the elite clubs.

 

[Crossie]

At work now Balu, but I think the prem has been the strongest since about 2010. Really it's increased specifically this season and will be even better next season.

You're trying too hard to troll. If this season has proven anything than that the EPL has weakened.

 

[Twigg]

Poor @Twigg getting caught up in the feckwittery of his near namesake.

I'm a cnut and we all know it

 

[Dr. Funkenstein]

I don't disagree with any of that. Achieving proper dominance and control, and becoming another Real or Barca, for Atletico Madrid, will be very difficult, and I'd argue that it might not even be possible given the resources of the elite clubs. What they've achieved already under Simeone is nothing short of phenomenal.

But nevertheless, as things stand, by hook or by crook, they've managed to become a top side, and are far better than us.

With all due respect for what they have achieved, I don't think they are far better. PSV showed themselves a very good CL-fighter again, they've done it before against Arsenal under Koeman for example and under Hiddink they even managed to get in the semi's if I remember correctly. They showed they can put up a fight against Atletico yesterday, but they already did that against United this season also. Atletico was better defensively against them, United created more chances against them.

So if United and Atletico would meet, this suggests it would be prette even. But with United playing the possession game and wanting to be the attacking side, and Atletico happy to defend and gamble on the counter, it would require United to be better, even is not enough for the attacking side, and even is just fine for the side with the defensive tactics. So probably Atletico would have the better chance of getting through, but if United were to score first, Atletico would have the problem that they had to attack and their tactics and team aren't particularly suited for that.

 

[Sarni]

I've had plenty of arguments. You just chose to ignore them.

To give Barce and Real a run in the league you don't need to be as good as them. You need to consistently beat the rest of the teams in the league. Which I don't think is very high (especially the bottom ten teams)

I think we are better than the teams like Leicester and West Ham. However because every game in the prem is harder to call you get anomalies where teams fluctuate more.

Well Atletico have been consistently beating Real Madrid though.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

With all due respect for what they have achieved, I don't think they are far better. PSV showed themselves a very good CL-fighter again, they've done it before against Arsenal under Koeman for example and under Hiddink they even managed to get in the semi's if I remember correctly. They showed they can put up a fight against Atletico yesterday, but they already did that against United this season also. Atletico was better defensively against them, United created more chances against them.

So if United and Atletico would meet, this suggests it would be prette even. But with United playing the possession game and wanting to be the attacking side, and Atletico happy to defend and gamble on the counter, it would require United to be better, even is not enough for the attacking side, and even is just fine for the side with the defensive tactics. So probably Atletico would have the better chance of getting through, but if United were to score first, Atletico would have the problem that they had to attack and their tactics and team aren't particularly suited for that.

You're talking about one-off games. Malaga can beat Barcelona in a single match. United vs Atletico may well be a close affair, but over the course of a league season they'd easily be ahead of us as they're simply a better, more fluid, more solid team, with a better goalscorer.

 

[Sarni]

They can improve the quality of their players.

We are at a low ebb right now and plagued with injuries. I think with a full first 11 a two tie affair with Athletico would be close. You obviously think they'd wipe the floor with us.

You don't think Atletico have great quality of players? In the past 3 years the only clubs who have beaten them in Europe were Barcelona and Real Madrid. Domestically they're the second best team. Players like Godin, Koke, Griezmann and a few others would walk into most teams in Europe.

Then again I'm not surprised you don't rate them. They're La Liga players at the end of the day and not amazing Premier League players.

 

[Sarni]

You're talking about one-off games. Malaga can beat Barcelona in a single match. United vs Atletico may well be a close affair, but over the course of a league season they'd easily be ahead of us as they're simply a better, more fluid, more solid team, with a better goalscorer.

Aye. You cannot possibly say with a straight face that over the course of 38 games United would be likely to finish above Atletico in a league. I'd say that in a knockout tie our chances would not be great either, in one off we might put up a fight but out of 10 ties between the two teams they'd easily come out on top in 7-8 of them IMO. They're better in pretty much every single area of the pitch. They have the best defence in Europe FFS.

 

[Massive Spanner]

Then again I'm not surprised you don't rate them. They're La Liga players at the end of the day and not amazing Premier League players.

Plus it's not like Spanish homegrown players are a patch on English homegrown players.

English players > Spanish players. Oh sure the Spanish national team have been far more successful in the last while but c'mon, you can't go judging sides by these one off knockout tournament games!

 

[Sarni]

Well then what am I supposed to focus on? Tbh I probably shouldn't focus on one but it's really hard not to, I tend to group you all together into a big group (Football Hipsters who hate the Prem )

I'm trying to prove here that the CL isn't a good measure of comparing football teams. Man City have just gone through. According to Sarni earlier when I questioned if Athletico were a good team.

"Yes, they are through to QF."

Now he'll come up with a reason why that doesn't apply to City.

City need to prove themselves against top class opposition to show that they're a top team. They haven't done this at any point in the last 3 years while Atletico consistently have, knocking out the likes of Barcelona and Mourinho's Chelsea as well as beating Juventus. They've been in a Champions League final while for City their appearance in QF this year will be the first time in their Champions League history. City have not knocked out a single top class opposition in their CL history.

Again, not surprised that you don't see the difference. Atletico are a shit crap terrible La Liga team.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Aye. You cannot possibly say with a straight face that over the course of 38 games United would be likely to finish above Atletico in a league. I'd say that in a knockout tie our chances would not be great either, in one off we might put up a fight but out of 10 ties between the two teams they'd easily come out on top in 7-8 of them IMO. They're better in pretty much every single area of the pitch. They have the best defence in Europe FFS.

I'd be surprised if many people thought we're as good as Atletico. Anyone who has seen the two teams over the last 3 years can see there's a gap. I just used the comparison to highlight how warped Twigginator's views are. He genuinely believes La Liga if full of untalented chumps, just because Barca hands out thrashings. I'd love to see Newcastle play Barcelona in a meaningful game.

 

[Sarni]

Plus it's not like Spanish homegrown players are a patch on English homegrown players.

English players > Spanish players. Oh sure the Spanish national team have been far more successful in the last while but c'mon, you can't go judging sides by these one off knockout tournament games!

Yep, you cannot judge footballers based on football being played. You need to look at transfer record, amount of money spend and your perceived quality of players (if you don't know them they have to be terrible, remember).

 

[Sarni]

I'd be surprised if many people thought we're as good as Atletico. Anyone who has seen the two teams over the last 3 years can see there's a gap. I just used the comparison to highlight how warped Twigginator's views are. He genuinely believes La Liga if full of untalented chumps, just because Barca hands out thrashings. I'd love to see Newcastle play Barcelona in a meaningful game.

The problem with arguing with him here is that there's not a single great team in Premier League right now. There was Ancelotti's Chelsea who was consistently handing out hammerings to mid-table teams, Liverpool with Suarez back in 2013-14 had some ridiculous scorelines with Suarez ruining teams on a regular basis, United back in the best era between 2006 and 2009 were winning games without getting out of second gear. What do you have now? Leicester and Tottenham are competing for the title and you cannot possibly believe that they're better than clubs like Atletico, Juventus, Dortmund etc. unless you're Twigg and you actually do believe that.

 

[Sarni]

As for the PSV game point because it clearly won't go away as you're well known for squeezing the last drop of every slightest error - yes, Atletico struggled against them and looking at games in isolation it doesn't reflect well on them. I still stand by my point that our failure to get more than 1 point against them in CL group phase as well as our struggle against CSKA and Wolfsburg go to show that we are not a great team at the minute. You have further evidence of that in the league where we have also struggled to perform.

For Atletico you might have a case that PSV tie was somewhat out of ordinary because they've normally been very good this season and for the past 3 seasons, consistently beating good teams and finishing top 3 in a top league as well as performing very well in Europe. They struggled to beat organized PSV side but it doesn't prove to me that they're not good. It's somewhat more difficult to have this argument for United because aside from failing to beat PSV we also failed to make it out of the group stages having lost to a mid-table Wolfsburg team and we have not performed well in Europe with this team, we have not performed in Europe either.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

The problem with arguing with him here is that there's not a single great team in Premier League right now. There was Ancelotti's Chelsea who was consistently handing out hammerings to mid-table teams, Liverpool with Suarez back in 2013-14 had some ridiculous scorelines with Suarez ruining teams on a regular basis, United back in the best era between 2006 and 2009 were winning games without getting out of second gear. What do you have now? Leicester and Tottenham are competing for the title and you cannot possibly believe that they're better than clubs like Atletico, Juventus, Dortmund etc. unless you're Twigg and you actually do believe that.

Yeah I think the PL could be as good as he thinks it already is if the bigger teams start playing well collectively and consistently, and of course spending better i.e are managed better. Right now, there's an element of bad management and poor spending at all the bigger sides. With Pep in charge of City, Mourinho of United, Klopp of Liverpool and Conte of Chelsea, we might just see that. That's when the league will truly be up a notch. Then you'd have very good teams at the top and a pretty strong league in general, rather than a pretty strong league in general with no true top class quality and just a lot of decent-goodish teams.

 

[Sarni]

Yeah I think the PL could be as good as he thinks it already is if the bigger teams start playing well collectively and consistently, and of course spending better i.e are managed better. Right now, there's an element of bad management and poor spending at all the bigger sides. With Pep in charge of City, Mourinho of United, Klopp of Liverpool and Conte of Chelsea, we might just see that. That's when the league will truly be up a notch. Then you'd have very good teams at the top and a pretty strong league in general, rather than a pretty strong league in general with no true top class quality and just a lot of decent-goodish teams.

There's massive potential in the league. If clubs like Chelsea, Arsenal, United and City spend well, they could well belong in Europe's elite very soon. Teams like Spurs and Liverpool could probably be consistently beating the likes of Sevilla and Villarreal because they are in a much better position than them - more money, bigger fan base, more recognition.

Thing is at the minute this does not happen. It's a combination of factors - money not being spent very well, poor youth setup compared to Spain and Germany and to an extent probably delusion of people like Twigg who live in belief that PL teams do not need to perform because they're amazing either way. I'd expect that in 10 years time Premier League will leap over La Liga in terms of quality but things have to change.

It's the best league to watch for me. Most entertaining, most competitive and very well marketed.

What we have here is a clear wind up though. I really don't believe that someone who watches football (though Twigg does not watch football outside Premier League) and follows results could possibly believe that we're on par with Atletico.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

There's massive potential in the league. If clubs like Chelsea, Arsenal, United and City spend well, they could well belong in Europe's elite very soon. Teams like Spurs and Liverpool could probably be consistently beating the likes of Sevilla and Villarreal because they are in a much better position than them - more money, bigger fan base, more recognition.

Absolutely. You have so many teams with the resources to be top class, or one or two steps below. Not many leagues can say that potential is there.

We and City, especially in the league, absolutely epitomize this. We are going through a coaching/footballing paralysis despite a massive outlay of money whereas City seem to have a complete lack of drive, intensity and tactical discipline.

Thing is at the minute this does not happen. It's a combination of factors - money not being spent very well, poor youth setup compared to Spain and Germany and to an extent probably delusion of people like Twigg who live in belief that PL teams do not need to perform because they're amazing either way. I'd expect that in 10 years time Premier League will leap over La Liga in terms of quality but things have to change.

I'd add coaching at the first team level to that, which has resulted in the bigger sides playing poorly as a collective, which has allowed Leicester City, a small side playing really well as a collective, to race into the lead. Like I said, my hope is that top class managers will raise the bar and maybe even push each other to better heights. Don't see the youth setup changing big time in the short term.

 

[Blackwidow]

I'd add coaching at the first team level to that, which has resulted in the bigger sides playing poorly as a collective, which has allowed Leicester City, a small side playing really well as a collective, to race into the lead. Like I said, my hope is that top class managers will raise the bar and maybe even push each other to better heights. Don't see the youth setup changing big time in the short term.

For me that is even the main point. I do not even think that it is so much the quality of players that differ but the implementation of tactics and togetherness. Too much hero-football where too much depends on individuals and too less team play and togetherness.

It might be a problem of the dressing rooms and star addiction in the EPL, too - in which some players might even have too much influence when managers come with new ideas.

 

[Revan]

You don't think Atletico have great quality of players? In the past 3 years the only clubs who have beaten them in Europe were Barcelona and Real Madrid. Domestically they're the second best team. Players like Godin, Koke, Griezmann and a few others would walk into most teams in Europe.

Then again I'm not surprised you don't rate them. They're La Liga players at the end of the day and not amazing Premier League players.

Actually, they beat Barca when they met in Europe. Only Madrid defeated them in Europe, while thwy have been second only to Barca in the league.

 

[Blackwidow]

Oh - Atletico is a great team with uncommon attributes. High physicality and more reactive than active - and they e.g. had 30 goals last season in La Liga with set-pieces and only 29 with open play. That tells you a lot.

I am a little careful if all of their players would be as good in other teams as they are in this set up where through team work the result is bigger than the parts and some abilities are helpful in this environment but they might lack abilities for other teams.

And that is exactly why you cannot rate a team by the transfer values etc. of their players...

 

[amolbhatia50k]

For me that is even the main point. I do not even think that it is so much the quality of players that differ but the implementation of tactics and togetherness. Too much hero-football where too much depends on individuals and too less team play and togetherness.

It might be a problem of the dressing rooms and star addiction in the EPL, too - in which some players might even have too much influence when managers come with new ideas.

Yes I agree. Which is why I mention management as a big part of it. Cohesion, spirit, tactical awareness and being thoroughly well-drilled, are big reasons. City with Otamendi, Kompany, Mangala and Dimechillis shouldn't be terrible defensively. United with Schweinsteiger, Schneiderlin, Herrera, Carrick and Blind should be much better in midfield.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Oh - Atletico is a great team with uncommon attributes. High physicality and more reactive than active - and they e.g. had 30 goals last season in La Liga with set-pieces and only 29 with open play. That tells you a lot.

I am a little careful if all of their players would be as good in other teams as they are in this set up where through team work the result is bigger than the parts and some abilities are helpful in this environment but they might lack abilities for other teams.

And that is exactly why you cannot rate a team by the transfer values etc. of their players...

Precisely why I keep stressing that team should be a bigger part of the discussion than merely player names in squads.

 

[Sarni]

Oh - Atletico is a great team with uncommon attributes. High physicality and more reactive than active - and they e.g. had 30 goals last season in La Liga with set-pieces and only 29 with open play. That tells you a lot.

I am a little careful if all of their players would be as good in other teams as they are in this set up where through team work the result is bigger than the parts and some abilities are helpful in this environment but they might lack abilities for other teams.

And that is exactly why you cannot rate a team by the transfer values etc. of their players...

Yep although I'd say that the current Atletico team has plenty of quality, arguably more than the team that won the league and reached CL final in 2014. They're not as strong as Real Madrid and Barcelona personnel wise though and are only competitive to them due to great coaching, tactics and team spirit. Their squad is quite short though, very few average players though - looking at their team they're all very good footballers.

 

[Sammyjunn]

Atletico would rip us apart completely, literally no debate there.

 

[Sarni]

Atletico would rip us apart completely, literally no debate there.

Nah they'd be 9th in Premier League.

 

[Sammyjunn]

Nah they'd be 9th in Premier League.

Bloody PSV could win this league.

 

[prarek]

Atletico being offensivley poor when asked to take control of games has fecked this thread up.
When we were a defensive rock and asked every single player to focus on the defensive side more than going forward, to not take risks while relying on our efficency in front of goal get us through, we were deemed the most boring side ever and an embarassment to our history. Atletico play that way on steroids.
They really are poor to watch and would face the same problems we have if they played in England. Having Torres play up top would stifle them instantly. He would be their Rooney albatross when the game goes from end to end a lot quicker than it does in Spain.

Except Rooney is a regular starter, Torres is not. Better comparison would be Rooney and Griezmann no?

 

[Amethyst]

Out of interest @Twigginater , what could other leagues do so that you consider them equals or better than the Premier League?

Performing well in Europe doesn't matter, so what can they do to convince you? Playing quality football doesn't seem to be enough either, because they might just look good because they play each other and both teams are weak, right?

I'd like to know this too. Atletico match up to Barcelona and Madrid - the league is poor. Atletico getting to latter stages in Europe - you can't use Champions League to compare. I haven't seen any sound justification given for why you (@Twigginater) feel we're at the same level.

 

[Sarni]

I'd like to know this too. Atletico match up to Barcelona and Madrid - the league is poor. Atletico getting to latter stages in Europe - you can't use Champions League to compare. I haven't seen any sound justification given for why you (@Twigginater) feel we're at the same level.

He has already said: get better quality of players. By that he probably means some that he will recognize from Premier League or TV because he doesn't watch other leagues so he doesn't know how good players from those leagues are. Rule number one: if Twigg has never heard of you, you are not good enough. Until you come to PL obviously then obviously your ability jumps twofold because Twigg now knows you.

Payer, Kante, Mahrez and Arnautovic were garbage footballers only a couple years ago, playing for obscure teams in shit terrible dreadful leagues. Look at them now.

 

[Wumminator]

I'd like to know this too. Atletico match up to Barcelona and Madrid - the league is poor. Atletico getting to latter stages in Europe - you can't use Champions League to compare. I haven't seen any sound justification given for why you (@Twigginater) feel we're at the same level.

The level of the players available to those squads.

Now some of you may say "how can you tell" but I think there is a way, it just may not be immediately apparent.

 

[Amethyst]

The level of the players available to those squads.

Now some of you may say "how can you tell" but I think there is a way, it just may not be immediately apparent.

If you aren't watching the league those players play in on a regular basis and think that using comparative success in European competition is invalid, what are you using to judge what level they're at?

 

[Wumminator]

I mean do we all accept that premier league teams have access to players that La Liga and the Bundesliga don't?

Can we all accept that the best managers in the world are in the premier league this season and next?

Can we all agree that premier league clubs have better finances and wage budgets?

If you accept these three facts I'm really confused at how you can say the prem overall isn't stronger.

 

[Balu]

The level of the players available to those squads.

Now some of you may say "how can you tell" but I think there is a way, it just may not be immediately apparent.

But how can the players in those squads convince you that they're as great as the ones in the Premier League? If they can't do that by performing well in the league or in Europe?

 

[Wumminator]

If you aren't watching the league those players play in on a regular basis and think that using comparative success in European competition is invalid, what are you using to judge what level they're at?

Performances in respective leagues and the teams that those players go into play for and represent for one.

Outside opinions about the players for another. For example Celta Vigo currently play John Guidetti and Iago Aspas up front.

 

[Wumminator]

But how can the players in those squads convince you that they're as great as the ones in the Premier League? If they can't do that by performing well in the league or in Europe?

Show off their skills over a longer career and move up in the football world.

For example someone like Modric or Bale stepped up to a massive club. Someone like Kagawa couldn't hack it in England. Someone like Guidetti couldn't make it in England at a bigger club.

There are ways of knowing what level a player is at.

 

[Wumminator]

Because yoi chose somehow the year when EPL clubs dominance in Europe ended, as the year when EPL became the strongest league in the world.

Douglas Adams would have been proud with these type of arguments.

Yeah I've said I don't think dominance in Europe doesn't really reflect strength in the league.

I think it's more to do with the finances in the league.

 

[Piratesoup]

I mean do we all accept that premier league teams have access to players that La Liga and the Bundesliga don't?

Can we all accept that the best managers in the world are in the premier league this season and next?

Can we all agree that premier league clubs have better finances and wage budgets?

If you accept these three facts I'm really confused at how you can say the prem overall isn't stronger.

How do you proof these "facts"? Or does it boil down to "the EPL has more money, therefore it is better" again?
As Balu pointed out earlier, the premier league is crammed full with experienced, big-name coaches who's success lies in the distant past. Now they'll be joined by Pep, ok. How do you judge the managers in La Liga and the Bundesliga? Can you name 8?

What players are available to players in the PL that are not available to teams in La Liga and the Bundesliga?

What good are huge budgets if you spend it on mediocrity?