How do you judge the quality of players?
The relative strength of the Premier League
- Thread starter Wumminator
- Start date
If they've played in both leagues that's one way. See if players from one league are moving specifically to higher/power placed teams. Look at how they do internationally ( a lot of players will play for the same national team)
Stuff like that.
Btw the Golden Boy award is
"The prize was established by Italian sports newspaper Tuttosport in 2003. Newspapers that now participate in voting include Bild(Germany), Blick (Switzerland), A Bola(Portugal), l'Équipe (France), France Football(France), Marca (Spain), Mundo Deportivo(Spain), Ta Nea (Greece), Sport Express(Russia), De Telegraaf (Netherlands), and The Times (United Kingdom). " seems a pretty impartial way.
Deep-red tinted glasses don't even come close to the status you are in.Trying a bit too hard now.
Chelsea or Sevilla?
Chelsea.
Btw the people that were arguing against me in this thread when I said English teams take the Europa league less seriously than other leagues must feel pretty silly after last night.
This season? Really?
The two questions I asked you just go to show how warped your thinking is. Football, if you haven't forgotten, is a team sport. That's why Barcelona with better players than Leceistor can be a better team than them this season, and Chelsea with better players than Villareal can be a worse team than them this season. The reason Chelsea have been abysmal this season isn't because the rest of the league has been amazing. It's because despite their individual quality, Chelsea have been terrible as a team. It's exactly why we aren't amazing. I'm sorry but no one but you thinks we are. Because having big names Schweinsteiger and Rooney doesn't make you fantastic.
You know what makes you a fantastic team? Playing fantastic football. I know, it's odd how that works but it, shockingly, is true.
If a team goes down from the prem to the championship and starts playing amazing football her doesn't make them amazing.
What are you even on about? Are you comparing la liga to the championship?By that logic, England must have been fantastic during the last two decades or Real Madrid were fantastic in the middle of the 2000s.
I remember seeing this list a while ago and getting pissed. I am sure that they did their homework and most of the players deserve to be on the list. I don't follow every one of them. I do follow some of them very closely and i have a gripe to pick with that list. First of all Gaya is not even on the list and he was in editors La Liga 11. He is qualified as he is younger than Januzaj. Majority of the players on that list are squad players unlike Gaya who was first choice and was probably the best left back in spain last season. Whats even more funnier is that Bakkali, who is very talented but is a squad player at Valencia is on the list(yes both Bakkali and Gaya play for Valencia). He played like 6 games last season. Whoever made that list doesn't know everything. It's like having Romero up for an award ahead of De Gea. Does not make sense.
Edit: This list seems more like a popularity contest to me. Lost all credibility in my eyes.
Last edited:
I'm showing playing good football doesn't have an impact on the quality of the team.
If a 6/10 team plays in a league of 8/10 teams they won't play good football. Put them in a league of 4/10 teams and they'd struggle.
Hence performance quality against leagues mean nothing.
I begin to wonder if Twigginater's account, at least in this thread, is run by Ed Woodward. At least it would explain why LvG is still at United and United's squad is assembled as it is.
That's the problem, he considers that the difference between la Liga and the PL is huge which leads to the underrating of every players and teams playing in Spain.
So your logic ignores the fact that other teams have fantastic players but aren't fantastic?
Your logic can't be good if it isn't recursive, you base everything on your subjectivity, you don't even look at facts, you just decide that a group of player is better because the individuals are more recognizable, it doesn't work like that in football or any other team sport. The team is a all, you can only judge the team.
Who is actually world class at Utd other than DDG ? There is none.
Luke Shaw maybe? For his age group though.
And Leicester wouldn't be top of the Premier league this season. Your logic is awful.
Okay firstly, your understanding of your own thread is woeful. This thread, if it has been worded coherently, is about strength of leagues, which is obviously derived from the strength of teams in those leagues. The strength of a team is to do with how it performs and not the names in that team. That's why Leicester are top and Chelsea are failing miserably. So let's get that bit out of the way. It really doesn't need to be explained.
Secondly, la liga is a brilliant league. It might hurt your pride in the PL to admit that, but it genuinely is. It is widely considered the best league in the world in recent times. So don't use this terrible logic of yours where it doesn't even apply. A team that is 4th in la liga has performed miles better than an underpforming joke star team in the PL.
We have big names like Wayne Rooney. How can we not be fantastic?
You mean the Liverpool - Utd where both teams put what could be close to their best XI in the field, or are you trying to prove a point with the only example of Spurs lineup?. Because if Valencia where 5 points behind Espanyol in the title race then yesterday maybe the Nevilles would be in the field and their best XI watching the game from home
I mean, if Poch has to decide wether to go seriously for the EL with tough competition in the line or trying to cut 5 points to Leicester the choice would be obvius, Spanish teams on the other hand are fighting for either a European title with a UCL spot attached to it or ending 5/6 in the league to... play the EL again
He knows squat about the other leagues going by this thread. That's not bad in itself. Being dismissive about things you don't know about is worse.
I'm off out for the night now guys, continue in my absence I look forward to reading it slightly hungover tomorrow!
Shaw has proven nothing on a long run. Being in good form for a few weeks should never be enough to be considered world class in any group age. Look at how great Smalling was the first 2-3 months and how shit he is at the moment. Some caftards (Utd fans specially) have this bad habit of making quick assessments.
He used to be it that was so long ago that it feels like a fairly tale you'd tell your grandchildren.
Yes he has. He was in the PL TOTY at the age of 18 and if he continued his form he'd probably have been well on his way to getting it this season too.
Team of the year means nothing, these things are always subject to criticism and debate. A glorified nomination, we can only judge on facts and facts tell us that Shaw hasn't played consistently high enough at a level that would make him one of the best LBs in the world (yet). He has the talent, just needs to demonstrate it is all.
Alright then.
He's certainly played consistently enough to be considered a world class LB for his age group though which is what i stated.
Alright then.
He's certainly played consistently enough to be considered a world class LB for his age group though which is what i stated.
You're right in what you stated tbh but when these things are considered age groups aren't always considered. Utd still has one proper world class player when everything is considered. It is really depressing when I think about it. The entire squad screams of average.
I'm not sure how to break this to you...
Yeah, i agree. Martial and Shaw do look like they could be world class though but it won't happen with incorrect management.
after seing Dortmund against Tottenham yesterday, I think the standard has gone down not up. Looking at the names on the screen and the score, it was actually funny. It Said "Dort 3 Tot 0" Tot is the german word for dead.
Or perhaps they are just good enough not to have to prioritize while you're not.
I'll have to take and concede that last point, obviously I can understand the reasoning you lay out before. But I strongly doubt it's the right kind of reasoning and also doubt this is how it works-
Obviously the percentages you assume are arbitrary. So if you say he's keeping a 90% percent chance of not dropping points from falling to 70% by resting players, fair enough.
The price to pay is exiting the only other competition the club is in.
At what point isn't it worth it? If we're talking about 80% to 75%?
How do we know that, if we assume the defeat to Dortmund is more severe due to the lineup changes, the severe loss and hopeless performance doesn't affect confidence of some players in a way which affects the % of beating Villa?
Etc.
Bottom line, I think the reasoning is wrong and counterproductive. IMO you don't strengthen yourself by conceding a competition, even if it's a bit more exhausting. I think competitive rhythm and spirit is important, and you weaken yourself by 'deprioritizing' games. I think for example the way Pep's first season at Bayern went is prove to that (he explicitly declared the league unimportant after it was won, and our form crashed immediately), but of course we can argue.
Most of all, we'll see. I'm predicting a Spurs loss at Villa
Also, of course we don't even know whether Pochettino indeed meant it as 'deprioritizing', or whether he really just tried his best even with the lineup, and they just got beat badly and comprehensive anyway. Might actually be very well that.
Anyway, I shouldn't mix up Pochettino with the arrogance of some fans, like this one..
The nerves of some people
The very day after his team got schooled by the respective team of another league, he not only claims the other league is 'clearly', 'undebatably' weaker, but actually goes on to claim that the reason his team got schooled is BECAUSE the other league is weaker.. absolutely mindboggling, arrogant BS
Yes. And it is a good thread, not necessarily because everything hasn't been argued 10000 times already, but because we got it all bundled and condensed, and not least due to the admirable tour-de-force performance you did put out here over the many pages of this thread, and I want to applaud you very much for this performance
.... The very day after his team got schooled by the respective team of another league, he not only claims the other league is 'clearly', 'undebatably' weaker, but actually goes on to claim that the reason his team got schooled is BECAUSE the other league is weaker.. absolutely mindboggling, arrogant BS...
The day after a Spurs B team got well beaten, away from home, I have NOT claimed the reason we were beaten is because the Bundesliga is weaker than the Prem ... although it is significantly weaker. We got beat because we fielded a B team, were playing away from home, and were playing a strong team that didn't field it's B team (partly because, playing in a much less competitive league, it can much more easily afford to field its A team in cup matches).
I am seriously thinking that Twigginater completely misses a brain.
Obviously the percentages you assume are arbitrary. So if you say he's keeping a 90% percent chance of not dropping points from falling to 70% by resting players, fair enough.
The price to pay is exiting the only other competition the club is in.
At what point isn't it worth it? If we're talking about 80% to 75%?
How do we know that, if we assume the defeat to Dortmund is more severe due to the lineup changes, the severe loss and hopeless performance doesn't affect confidence of some players in a way which affects the % of beating Villa?
Etc.
Bottom line, I think the reasoning is wrong and counterproductive. IMO you don't strengthen yourself by conceding a competition, even if it's a bit more exhausting. I think competitive rhythm and spirit is important, and you weaken yourself by 'deprioritizing' games. I think for example the way Pep's first season at Bayern went is prove to that (he explicitly declared the league unimportant after it was won, and our form crashed immediately), but of course we can argue.
Most of all, we'll see. I'm predicting a Spurs loss at Villa
Tbh, i agree with your points on rhythm and spirit, but I think there are certain situations where it may seem sensible to prioritise games over others and i think this is the case for Spurs. As i said before, i think if Spurs were only a point behind Leicester, or were ahead, they wouldn't have rested players like they did.
Yeah, if Spurs lose against Villa then this discussion will be in vein (for me and RiP at least!) but then again, if they had lost against Villa with a below average side then people would be lambasting them for not resting players!
Didn't four players from their first XI didn't start?
'The more competitive' stuff is idiotic bullshit that gets repeated despite that it has no base.
The list of EPL fans excuses about the lack of success of English clubs in Europe is longer than the list of English clubs who reach quarter finals of European competitions. Which says it all about the quality of the league.
But Twigginater and Glaston will use that to justify Pochetino's decision to rest players. 'You see how competitive the league is, even resting players and we still couldn't win. Imagine if we didn't do that'.Tbh, i agree with your points on rhythm and spirit, but I think there are certain situations where it may seem sensible to prioritise games over others and i think this is the case for Spurs. As i said before, i think if Spurs were only a point behind Leicester, or were ahead, they wouldn't have rested players like they did.
Yeah, if Spurs lose against Villa then this discussion will be in vein (for me and RiP at least!) but then again, if they had lost against Villa with a below average side then people would be lambasting them for not resting players!
The entire rest players to do well in other competitions is a bit bullshit. Top European teams don't rest players in league/Europe to do well in European competitions. And even if we blindly believe Twigginater's dogma that the other leagues are shit and so are different rules, we can look when English teams were good and see that doing well in the league didn't harm European performances and vice versa. When United won the UCL and reached two other UCL finals, we were also champions in the league.
But if Glaston was our manager, he would have rested our players in UCL, in order to do well in the league to qualify for UCL.