Right. And Arnautovic is a reject from a pretty poor Bundesliga side, Bojan ist a reject from half of Europe, from there you can start to form an opinion. And those aren't just squad players for side fighting relegation, but stars for a side which is competing for an EL spot.
The relative strength of the Premier League
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Right. And Arnautovic is a reject from a pretty poor Bundesliga side, Bojan ist a reject from half of Europe, from there you can start to form an opinion. And those aren't just squad players for side fighting relegation, but stars for a side which is competing for an EL spot.
Yes, it's definitely sufficient. Like I know that Stoke have an Ajax reject and Werder Bremen reject in their team as their two best players hence I know they are a poor team. Arsenal have Milan failure (Flamini) in their squad which is laughable. The team topping Premier League is basically full of rejects. What a terrible dreadful league.
That Barce side must be one shit team if they let poor premier league rejects score against them. Sorry, couldn't resist : (
You are making too much sense for that thread.
Well if you're gonna use things he's said against him that just seems unfair.
so you know two of their squad players and on that basis you dismiss everyone else (because you don't know them). Good logic, keep it up.
This season Rayo are quite shit, but still have some good players like Trashorras, Embarba and Jozabed; also useful players like Javi Guerra, Iturra, Baena, Manucho and Bebé; and lastly some volatile players like Ebert and Pablo Hernández, who can have 1 brilliant game and then 10 games full of nothingness.
A far better question would be a team like Villarreal (or even Eibar or Las Palmas this season)...
Except that your evaluations of those players are incredibly simplistic foregoing loads of important factors. Both Bebé and Manucho barely even played for Utd, so how exactly are you comparing their performances? Manucho played 16 minutes (!) of Premier League football for Utd, played some cup games in which he scored, then went to Hull on loan where he scored 2 in 13 PL games. Then went to Spain where he's so far scored more than 5 league goals once (8 in 25 games for Valladolid in 2012/13). Bebé played 2 PL games for Utd and 7 in all comps, in which he scored twice! In La Liga he's scored the same amount of goals... in 45 games.
Not to mention you're not even compensating for the difference in a club the level of Utd, perennial title-contenders and one of the best on the continent at that time, compared to the level of the likes of Valladolid, Córdoba, Rayo... all relegation contenders and mid-table at most. The fact that they struggled to get game time for the former and not the latter says very little about the respective leagues they're in, only really about the level of these particular clubs.
Take the example of Arouna Koné: had a decent career in Belgium & Holland, then went to Sevilla where he was a laughing stock and scored a single La Liga goal in 4 years and 40 appearances. Then he moved to promoted side Levante and in he was immediately a starter and played 34 games scoring 15 goals. He went to similar side in Wigan the next season and scored 11 in 34 in the PL. Then he moved to Everton which was again a step up (similar to Sevila) and since then he's struggled getting games and scoring only sporadically. The level of club he was at impacted his goalscoring ability far more than the switch between leagues did.
In that sense, what Ighalo has done this season at Watford is a counter-example to yours that is a lot worse following your logic, because he actually got significant playing time in his 3 years at relegation side Granada and only needed half a PL season to score the same amount of goals for promoted Watford.
I'm sure you'll turn it into evidence of the PL's competitiveness somehow though...
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Fair points lads.
I think Stoke are the perfect example of hype and glamour playing the defining role of people's views of PL teams. Throughout the season we've heard comments like this:
This trio of big club rejects may be glamorous but they've had a negligible impact in the league. If Southampton beat them today they'll be in 9th place, exactly the same position they've been in for the last two years. The easy response to that is to say they haven't moved forward because the rest of the league have all improved, but it's not about that. They have the 6th worst attack in the league - worse than the much less glamorous attacks of the likes of Sunderland and Norwich. None of Affelay, Bojan or Shaqiri feature in the top 100 players in the league. Shaqiri was subbed off today after just half an hour because he was so ineffectual, and that's been true for many of his appearances.
They may have a "great" team on paper in the eyes of PL fans but the reality is very different and is frequently proven in Europe.
This trio of big club rejects may be glamorous but they've had a negligible impact in the league. If Southampton beat them today they'll be in 9th place, exactly the same position they've been in for the last two years. The easy response to that is to say they haven't moved forward because the rest of the league have all improved, but it's not about that. They have the 6th worst attack in the league - worse than the much less glamorous attacks of the likes of Sunderland and Norwich. None of Affelay, Bojan or Shaqiri feature in the top 100 players in the league. Shaqiri was subbed off today after just half an hour because he was so ineffectual, and that's been true for many of his appearances.
They may have a "great" team on paper in the eyes of PL fans but the reality is very different and is frequently proven in Europe.
Can't agree with this, the English mid-table is easily better than the la liga one. From Malaga downwards, la liga is devoid of any quality both in terms of personnel and in terms of tactical application(apart from Valencia which is doing a Chelsea). All the prem needs is for the big clubs to get back to being part of the elite of Europe.
Such a great point. The "Bojan-Afellay-Shaqiri" argument is so weird.
Bojan has spent the last 8 years sitting on Barca's bench then getting loaned to Roma to sit on the bench then getting loaned to Milan's bench then failing to make an impact even in the Dutch league before Barca let his contract run out and he joined Stoke basically on a free.
Afellay's career much the same. Spent his last 6 years making 10 minute cameos for Barca before being shipped off to Greece until his contract ran out.
Shaqiri much the same.
What's so great about that attack?
It'd be a cracking front trio in Football Manager..... 7 years ago.
He was taken off cause he was injured.
I doubt it's "easily" better... Devoid of quality? It's virtually the same Real Sociedad side that was playing the best football in Spain and qualified to the CL back in 2013; there's also a surprisingly effective Depor and the impressive promoted Las Palmas that dominated a high-flying Barça only a few weeks ago and ended Villarreal's unbeaten run. And there's also plenty of quality personnel at Betis and Espanyol...
Wouldn't say they were playing the best football, but they were playing some decent stuff, however days of that team are now in the distant past. The loss of Griezmann and Illaramendi put a halt to their progress, losses they haven't really recovered from to this day even though the latter is back, he's looking half the play after his Madrid exploits. Vela is having a mid career meltdown. Game raising doesn't make a team quality. Who from Espanyol would you say is quality apart from Asensio? betis have Dani who is petty talented, everyone else just look like journeymen.
My point is, no club in the midtable in la liga have the squad to match a side like Everton for example. In fact, only a madman or someone that doesn't watch both leagues to a good extent that would think any of those squads are of that level.
Guess that makes me a madman then.
My point on that Real Sociedad side was that in terms of personnel there's barely been any turnover from that team that finished 4th in 2012/13 and was getting some impressive results against the big boys in the second half of the season (5-2 & 4-2 wins v Valencia, 3-2 win v Barça and 3-1 win at San Mamés, beat Sevilla both home and away and Atléti away and drew 3-3 with RM) -- the most important ones like you mention, Griezmann and Illarra (although he's back he's not returned to that season's form), and Claudio Bravo but everything else is largely the same (they've added Rulli, Canales and Jonathas to fill those gaps) -- and yet since Arrasate's 2nd season/Moyes they've been crap.
Everton currently 12th in the PL, how about Valencia (12th in La Liga and just now defeated by rock-bottom side Levante)? Are those squads not comparable?
Fair enough if you want to compare all of these squads, but considering they're not going to play each other all you're left with is personal opinions and mostly on-paper arguments about names, reps and price tags -- frankly, I find that pointless. In that vein, I think it's fair to note that at the moment there are very few PL sides (Leicester and West Ham is about it) of which it can be said that the whole is greater than the sum of its parts... but in Spain you have a Celta side who have lost some of their best players to immediate rivals year upon year and are actually enjoying their best season so far (currently 5th ahead of Sevilla, Athletic, etc.) and causing the big boys trouble, and others like Villarreal, Málaga, Eibar being successful with very modest squads that would come across poorly on paper compared with their equivalents in other leagues. Yet Villarreal (probably the proponent par excellence of the aforementioned principle of team play being more important than its individuals) are giving an outstanding account of themselves yet again, despite their lack of "star" names, beating the likes of RM, Atlético, Napoli and Bayer Leverkusen whose squads look a lot more impressive on paper.
Word, i.e. the bolded part.
This is arguably kind of selective though. I mean, most people would probably agree Everton should be slightly higher than where they are now because they've got a decent squad, but the reason they're not is because they're dreadful defensively and can't close out games.
I also think you're maybe overrating Everton's side a little bit. They've got some quality: Lukaku is absolutely brilliant, for example, and Barkley is very good too. But it's still mostly a mid-table side with mid-table players. A team where guys like Cleverley, McCarthy,and Lennon and more can also play fairly regularly. I very much doubt most of their squad would look particularly great in a mid-table La Liga side, and only a few of their better players would be able to get into some top sides, if even that. They're decent, yeah, and entertaining to watch, but they do have some major deficiencies and aren't much better than a lot of the mid-table La Liga clubs, if at all.
Here's a question- does this result at the Emirates help Twigg's case for the league or harm it? Does a Watford win show the strength in depth of the Premier League or does a mid-table team beating Arsenal at home show that our Champions League teams are poor since City will probably be the only representation left in the next round?
A bit of both. We've seen results like this a lot this season. Teams like Everton, Stoke, Southampton and Watford today getting some good results and playing some very good football, but still lingering around mid-table. We laud them when they get the big results (rightfully), but don't pay too much attention when they then go and draw at home to Sunderland or Newcastle the following week.
Stoke might just be the best example. Last November, they got a big result against Chelsea at home, followed by another impressive away win to Southampton. But they then went and lost to Sunderland the week after that.
They repeated this when, in December, they beat us at home, before getting an impressive 4-3 win against Everton. But they then went and lost to West Brom in their next game after that.
I do think there's a fair bit of depth in the PL at the moment. Watford are far better than a typical 13/14th placed side most seasons, but at the same time, the fact that these mid-table sides are against weaker top teams helps them. I'd say that the quality of the mid-table bunch has seen a general improvement...but the top sides have seen a drastic weakening.
Just like to point out I don't think Stoke and Southampton can be accused of playing good football much this season.
Here's a question I have for people.
The Ligue Un is seen as a joke. Look at the French Ligue thread for evidence of that. Seems people aren't impressed with that league.
Yet to me the only difference between that and the Bundesliga is a decentish second place side (a good team who aren't going to be champions anytime soon)
Bayern are 21 points ahead of third. Third place is 21 points from relegation.
Doesn't that make a boring league?
The Ligue Un is seen as a joke. Look at the French Ligue thread for evidence of that. Seems people aren't impressed with that league.
Yet to me the only difference between that and the Bundesliga is a decentish second place side (a good team who aren't going to be champions anytime soon)
Bayern are 21 points ahead of third. Third place is 21 points from relegation.
Doesn't that make a boring league?
Everyone can decide for themselves if a league is boring or not. I'm sure many people thought the Premier League was often boring and predictable over the last 25 years, when all the other top leagues were usually more competitive and had more different title winners and CL participants. That got nothing to do with the strength of the teams in the league though or the quality of football on show when smaller teams face each other. There seems to be the problem that everyone (and apparantly you more than anyone else) wants to talk about teams they rarely watch and have no interest in. Many Bundesliga fans are excited about the close relegation fight, the brutal fight for the CL place with teams like Wolfsburg and Leverkusen likely to miss out this season and some even have hope/are worried that the title fight between two sensational teams, who produce breathtaking football regularly isn't decided yet. It's really just the ignorant people who think they should voice a strong opinion about it even though it seems all they care about is looking at the table on the internet to have something to say about, pulling some meaningless statistics out and act as if they're in a position to tell others that they have no reason to be emotionally invested because their league sucks.
It's really sad. Not as sad as believing that United is fantastic but Dortmund is decentish though. No one who actually loves the game of football and enjoys watching quality football would ever say that this season.
Take a look at the fifa ranking and you get your answer. We are not "decentish", we are a top 10 side in Europe. Schalke and Leverkusen usually make it into the CL KO stages, Wolfsburg is now in the quarter final (albeit with draw luck).
The reason for the current league standing is twofolded. On one side you have the brutal quality and consistency of Bayern (and with all respect to Paris, they are not on that level yet) and the strong inform Dortmund, on the other side the underperformance of the usual suspects in regards of CL places in Germany (the beforementioned), which creates the situation that sides like Berlin or Mainz might make it into the CL next year. Funnily enough the performances of WHU and Leicester are signs of the strength of EPL in many eyes and these clubs don´t get any credit at all on here. God knows where they would be if not for the strength of both Bayern and Dortmund.
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There is a galaxy between the Ligue 1 and the Bundesliga, particularly during the period when Lyon had to finance their new stadium.
You can't judge the quality of a league by looking at the table.
Ffs how difficult is that for you to comprehend?
You can judge how exciting it is obviously.
Hence dozens of posters in the Ligue Un thread.
So the activity of a thread about a foreign league in an English forum is now a measure stick for the excitement of said league? How do you even judge the general level of excitement of something? Thats completely subjective.
No you can't. You can only judge these things by watching the games.
I bet a fair few are just there to discredit PSG as much as possible. They've become well hated since last season. But it still is a pretty average league.
But the French league has seen similar situations before. Lyon won 8-9 titles in a row at one point.
You mean to a guy who watches barely any of either? Bundesliga is known to be a top league in terms of quality whereas league un is not.
I've seen a few Ligue 1 games. Not enough to have a solid opinion on the quality of the league, but enough to think that apart from PSG, it is decently competitive.
There was a thread created here which showed a league in some country in Asia where every team in the league could win the title or get relegated going into the final day. Is that the best league in the world?
Have to agree there however what the guy is claiming is that you aren't likely to drop those points due to the standard of opposition you face week by week. Personally I think its all a load of tosh. I've seen little evidence that mid level premier league teams are superior to mid level sides in other country. Literally none! I can only go by our experiences and Wolfsburg showed they were the better team than us under the Van Gaal regime. Considering they are 8th last time I looked.....well it begs the question. We'll see how Leverkusen hold up against Villa. I personally don't enjoy the superiority complex that exists within English football and that Messi and Ronaldo couldn't do what they do in the Premier league because its the European Elite League equivalent. Rule Britannia!
This shows that you basically know feck all about the Ligue 1 and how weak it truly has become in the last 2-3 years. I'm fairly sure that every team from the German league would be able to beat their Ligue 1 counterparts.
I think that it was the Algerian league.
The old team was better because it had two genuine world class players. Bale is the most expensive player in the world and was bought due to his near unstoppable force in the premier league. Modric is one of the best CM in the world. Spurs don't currently have anyone near that class. Did Gallas really play for Tottenham? Van der Vaart had goals in him. Ledley King, Robbie Keane, J .Defoe, Crouchy, Dawson etc. They were decent opposition in a SERIOUSLY competitive League. Back then Chelsea, United, Arsenal, City(creeping up) and Liverpool were still a genuine threat.
My memory's shit so I'll take your word. Point remains the same.
Yeah its unfair. They can pick up quality Spanish and German players for reasonable prices and form the basis of their team. In England thats a fast track to getting broke! I rate Isco and he went for like £28 million. How much would Barkley cost? Barca signed Pique for like 4 mill from us. John Stones £45 mill anyone? you get my point
Known how? How is it known?