The relative strength of the Premier League

The Bayern thing does make sense though. If you play in Germany and are comfortable in Germany and want to stay then its only Bayern you can join. They can build a fantastic base and attract the likes of Vidal and Costa.
United in 09/10 ish were exactly where Bayern are now yet we were losing out on Silva and Aguero to City. Chelsea poached Robben and Essien off our hands which could never happen to Bayern and another German team these days.
If you are a star and want to play in Germany you look to Bayern first. If you wsnt to play in England you have 4/5 equal sides waiting to cut each others throats to get you.
 
cyberman said:
The Bayern thing does make sense though. If you play in Germany and are comfortable in Germany and want to stay then its only Bayern you can join. They can build a fantastic base and attract the likes of Vidal and Costa.
United in 09/10 ish were exactly where Bayern are now yet we were losing out on Silva and Aguero to City. Chelsea poached Robben and Essien off our hands which could never happen to Bayern and another German team these days.
If you are a star and want to play in Germany you look to Bayern first. If you wsnt to play in England you have 4/5 equal sides waiting to cut each others throats to get you.
Click to expand...


Yeah makes sense to me.
 
SirBobbysCombover said:
TV-money-Spain-v-England.jpg

Says it all really, when I lived out there I was stunned at how poorly other teams are treated, it's akin to holding a grand national with two thoroughbreds and the rest of the paddock being donkeys.
Click to expand...

The lead donkey seems to have closed the gap though.
 
SirBobbysCombover said:
TV-money-Spain-v-England.jpg
two horse race each year,I would say the quality of competition is inferior to our own.
Click to expand...

Apart from, ya know, Atletico winning it just two years ago, and currently being 2nd, ahead of one of those two big sides.

Granted, the distribution of money is terrible in La Liga and it heavily benefits (unfairly I'd say) Barca and Real, but that's not what this discussion is about. It's about the strength of the leagues overall, and there's no doubt that La Liga is at the very least on a par with the PL, if not a whole lot better at the moment.
 
do.ob said:
It's true that Stoke are doing well in the league this year, but that doesn't change the fact that they mostly bought flops from other clubs for high fees.
Click to expand...
There is really nothing wrong with buying flops from big clubs since big clubs generally buy very talented players. Take Shaqiri for example, its much better to purchase him than some prem proven under performer. The wages in the prem are so huge that players that are failures at the big clubs, especially if they weren't initially really big signings, they'd fit right in with the wage structure. Signing a destitute Bojan isn't going to bankrupt any one since he's already almost out of options. Stoke just need to complete the transformation of the team with a couple of fullbacks and a couple of mids. maybe a striker too.
 
prarek said:
A Spanish team having 5/6 good foreigners means they can fill the rest of the team/squad with pretty decent local players with minimum cost without too much of a drop in quality. On the other hand English teams cannot do so because quite frankly England just aren't very good in producing local talents. Hence they need the extra money to fill the team with more foreigners or else there will be a big drop in quality. A small country like Uruguay with a population of 3.3 million producing more top class players than much bigger nations shows not all countries are at a level playing field in terms of producing talent. And there is a big gap between England and Spain/Germany imo. But EPL clubs have money so it is not a problem that cannot be solved for them.
Click to expand...
Honestly think England produces more than enough talent but continuously fails to develop it. There's a lot of effort in Spain and Germany to develop their players and they get a chance at the top level earlier and get more chances.
 
RooneyLegend said:
Honestly think England produces more than enough talent but continuously fails to develop it. There's a lot of effort in Spain and Germany to develop their players and they get a chance at the top level earlier and get more chances.
Click to expand...
That is a good point. Although you could say that developing or transitioning a youth to senior might also be considered as part of youth development. English clubs have a lot of money so maybe they have become a little lazy or impatient and would rather buy than invest time and effort into a youth. Another measure is perhaps to also look into their performances at UEFA tournaments.

2duxth0.jpg


1zeknxv.jpg
 
Sarni said:
Two horse race yet Atletico just won the league and are better than any English side. Laughable.
Click to expand...

Atletico could be camels and camels are fast and have stamina, so it's a two horses race with a camel between them.
 
RooneyLegend said:
Honestly think England produces more than enough talent but continuously fails to develop it. There's a lot of effort in Spain and Germany to develop their players and they get a chance at the top level earlier and get more chances.
Click to expand...
Amazing how this point seems lost on so many. The way some talk about the lack of talent in England, you'd think talent is some magical alien phenomena that just happens to some and skips others. We do have plenty of players, it's just that we do not develop them as good as other countries do. The average clubs are too rich and desperate to stay in the PL that they don't work on it. Add to that the inherent allergy to tactics and anything intellect related in English football and you get tactically under developed youngsters who get no chance to improve.

I think at the bottom of this the fact that English football does not really put a lot of emphasis on coaching and tactical/technical development, relatively of course. I remember reading a Ballague article about Moyes in Sociedad where he said that Moyes was still acting in a typical British mindset; trying to get players that will help him get results. This is in contrast to the Spanish coaching mindset, he said: where it puts more emphasis on improving and developing what you have through tactical combinations and training ground work. It's difficult to know if it's the wealth of English teams that discourages them from developing talent or the inherent coaching inferiority that forces them to go on the transfer market. But to claim that we simply don't have talent because well ... it's not there due to some magical reason is really an absurd excuse.
 
Theonas said:
Amazing how this point seems lost on so many. The way some talk about the lack of talent in England, you'd think talent is some magical alien phenomena that just happens to some and skips others. We do have plenty of players, it's just that we do not develop them as good as other countries do. The average clubs are too rich and desperate to stay in the PL that they don't work on it. Add to that the inherent allergy to tactics and anything intellect related in English football and you get tactically under developed youngsters who get no chance to improve.

I think at the bottom of this the fact that English football does not really put a lot of emphasis on coaching and tactical/technical development, relatively of course. I remember reading a Ballague article about Moyes in Sociedad where he said that Moyes was still acting in a typical British mindset; trying to get players that will help him get results. This is in contrast to the Spanish coaching mindset, he said: where it puts more emphasis on improving and developing what you have through tactical combinations and training ground work. It's difficult to know if it's the wealth of English teams that discourages them from developing talent or the inherent coaching inferiority that forces them to go on the transfer market. But to claim that we simply don't have talent because well ... it's not there due to some magical reason is really an absurd excuse.
Click to expand...


I'd say it is harder for English clubs to blood players through... Because the standard of the prem is so high managers can't risk it.
 
Twigginater said:
I'd say it is harder for English clubs to blood players through... Because the standard of the prem is so high managers can't risk it.
Click to expand...

:lol: I love how it's your answer for everything.
 
This has to be my favourite series of posts in the thread:

Twigginater makes a ridiculous claim:

Twigginater said:
a) The Premier League has more teams
b) The Premier League has better teams
c) The premier league plays more matches
Click to expand...

So Cina points out the obvious flaw in his logic by mentioning the number of games played by some teams in Spain:

Cina said:
@Twigginater Barca played 60 games last season, Real 59, Atletico 56.

Chelsea were the closest PL team with 54.

At some point, having been so wrong on so many things throughout the years, you really just have to take a step back and think to yourself "am I clueless?" *

* the answer is yes.
Click to expand...

Then along comes combover, all riled up and not giving a feck about the actual point:

SirBobbysCombover said:
they also had a winter break and play in far less competitive leagues, terrible comparison
Click to expand...

Cina points out his mistake, clearing up the misunderstanding quite succinctly:

Cina said:
Maybe you should actually read the thread, seeing as I wasn't making a 'comparison', I was pointing out that Spanish teams do play as many, if not more games than PL teams, something Twigginater claimed otherwise to. And that's ignoring your daft 'less competitive' comment.
Click to expand...

So combover naturally acknowledges he got the wrong end of the.... Oh wait, no, no that's not what happened at all.

SirBobbysCombover said:
I have read the thread, your stats bear no relevance as they are incomparable.stop getting so emotional and read my post.
Click to expand...

I have no idea what just happened.

Twigginater is being out Twigginaterred in his own thread!
 
Twigginater said:
I'd say it is harder for English clubs to blood players through... Because the standard of the prem is so high managers can't risk it.
Click to expand...
Funny enough, that's probably what they are thinking but of-course its nonsense because not so long ago we just saw a united side littered with inexperienced kideos beat a title competing team plus we've seen Spurs do well despite them giving lots of academy players a chance.
 
SirBobbysCombover said:
Anyone who thinks la liga, bundesligue, serie a... feck it, if anyone thinks any other league in elite football is harder than the prem, needs to lay off the crack pipe.

Funny how all managers that come to these shores moans about the fixture list, competitiveness and pile up around xmas, how it is a detriment to our league and national team.
Click to expand...

Lay said:
Not really. It can be thrown about a few ways. Players have gone to Serie A from the Premier League and have stated they have never worked so hard as they have in Serie A, Thierry Henry went to La Liga and said he has never had to run so much in England in comparison to La Liga.
Click to expand...

Patrice Evra, former United player and obvious crack-addict, yesterday:

'Compared to the Premier League, Serie A really teaches you to defend'.

“Every day I think about our objective, which is the fifth consecutive Scudetto. When I came to Italy [former Juve striker Carlos] Tevez told me that it took a hundred chances to score one goal [in Serie A].

“This is different by comparison to England, where it's a show in which the first team to get exhausted falls, like a boxer. In Serie A, you win with your head.

“I'm learning so much here. I must thank Italy, a country that taught me so much from early on in my career. Now let's win against Bayern Munich. I do believe it's possible.
 
JPRouve said:
Lewandowski and Gotze are really bad examples, Dortmund refused the money and chose to let him go for nothing and Bayern triggered Gotze's clause, Bayern's financial power had nothing to do with those deals.
On the other hand Liverpool used their financial strength on Southampton, United bought Arsenal's and Tottenham's best players with offers that they couldn't refuse, City bullied Liverpool. Lately only Everton told Chelsea to do one.
Click to expand...

I wish that were true but we paid the absolute most for a player who was adamant he was leaving. Liverpool got the best deal possible by being obstinate with City, they were far from bullied.
 
SirBobbysCombover said:
two horse race each year,I would say the quality of competition is inferior to our own.
Click to expand...
Since the 04/05 season:

Number of different Bundesliga winners: 4
Number of different La Liga winners: 3
Number of different Premier League winners: 3

I could easily argue the Premier League was a two horse year between 2004 and 2011 until City won the lottery.

La Liga vs PL in Europa League knockout phases since the 04/05 season:
11/12: Valencia knocks out Stoke, Bilbao knocks out United (3 La Liga sides in the semis by the way)
09/10: Atletico Madrid knocks out Liverpool
07/08: Bolton knocks out Atletico Madrid
06/07: Sevilla knocks out Tottenham (3 La Liga sides in the semis btw)

H2H, this reads 4-1 in favor of La Liga sides.

In this time, there has been one English victory (Chelsea) and one other final appearance (Fulham). However, there have been SIX Spanish victories (4x Sevilla, 2x Atletico) and EIGHT La Liga sides in the final (the aforementioned six + Bilbao and Espanyol who lost all-Spanish finals). So, even if you want to continue arguing that La Liga is a two-horse race (which is wrong), you can't deny that there has been quality throughout the league in all those different seasons. Spanish sides have consistently performed very well in the Europa League/UEFA Cup while English sides didn't for most of the time. You can argue all you want it's because English teams prioritize the Premier League and don't rate the Europa League, even if that would be true, those Spanish sides who did well in Europa were very good sides, all of them.

La Liga vs PL in Champions League knockout phases since the 04/05 season:
14/15: Barcelona knocks out City
13/14: Barcelona knocks out City and Atletico Madrid knocks out Chelsea (all-Spanish final)
12/13: Real Madrid knocks out United
11/12: Chelsea knocks out Barcelona
10/11: Barcelona knocks out Arsenal and United, Real knocks out Tottenham
09/10: Barcelona knocks out Arsenal
08/09: Liverpool knocks out Real, Arsenal knocks out Villareal and Barcelona knocks out Arsenal and United
07/08: United knocks out Barcelona (all-English final)
06/07: Liverpool knocks out Barcelona, Chelsea knocks out Valencia
05/06: Barcelona knocks out Chelsea and Arsenal, Arsenal knocks out Real and Villareal
04/05: Chelsea knocks out Barcelona

H2H, this reads 12-9 in favor of La Liga sides, but which trend can we see develop? Since the 09/10 season, the standings are 8-1 in favor of the La Liga sides with the only exception Chelsea beating Barcelona and we all know how that went down. You have to admit, English sides did very well for themselves in Europa from 04/05 until United went to the final twice in three years and Chelsea won in Munich. The demise of English teams in Europa is clearly visible after that, though.

In this time, there have been three English victories (Chelsea, United and Liverpool) and eight final appearances. On the other side, there are five Spanish victories (4x Barcelona and Real) and six final appearances. So, it's quite even in the Champions League, but yet again you can't deny English teams have done very poorly in this competition of late. Don't try to give some bullshit arguments about the competitiveness of the Premier League and English clubs not having a winter break because it surely didn't matter from 04/05 until 11/12 when the English top clubs were all a lot better. Surely that must mean the Premier League was even harder therefore they shouldn't have done as well as they have in Europe? It just doesn't make any sense.

If the teams around you are getting stronger and better, you raise the bar and try to become better yourself. That's what Mourinho did to United when he first came to England, SAF reacted and built one of the best United sides of all time. Right now, there's zero incentive for the top clubs because there is no genuine world class side in England anymore, there is not one club who sets the bar high for others to follow their example. If anything, the standard of play from our supposedly top sides is bang average and any decent, consistently performing team should be running away with the league right now.

Barcelona would piss all over the Premier League at the moment, probably likewise for Real and even Atletico. Sure, give me your TV deal distribution graphics again which you like to throw around from time to time but I like to judge teams from what I see from them, and it's plain simple really - not one English team right now is even close to the three powerhouses of La Liga. They're so strong that it might look like a three horse race (or two horse race like you oh so wrongly argued), but there are other excellent teams in that league as well: Villareal is having an amazing season, Sevilla might still struggle away from home but play some nice stuff as well, probably also others who I haven't even watched. Yes, a club like Valencia is underperforming this season but then again, isn't Chelsea? Isn't United? The fact that they sit in 10th and 6th place is absolutely not because the Premier League is so amazingly competitive and great, it's because they're underperforming like crazy and play mostly shite football right now.
 
RooneyLegend said:
Funny enough, that's probably what they are thinking but of-course its nonsense because not so long ago we just saw a united side littered with inexperienced kideos beat a title competing team plus we've seen Spurs do well despite them giving lots of academy players a chance.
Click to expand...

Which Spurs players have come from their academy?
 
@RobinLFC thanks for taking the time to do that. There is no doubt that Barce and Real are better than the prem teams in Europe at the moment. I don't think there's been enough English teams playing Spanish teams (or taking the competition seriously) to compare the Europa league games. Can't believe there hasn't been a knock out tie in three years
However I really struggle to see the logic at the end, you seem to conclude the reason Chelsea and United are low is because they are playing shite football and are underperforming. I'd argue that they are just playing a higher level of team and thus look shite compared to others.

Using the Europa league as a barometer, West Ham aren't as good at the Maltese (?) champions and Southampton aren't as good as Mitjyland or whatever. The English teams struggle in Europa no doubt, I wonder if there's a reason for that?
 
I'd also like to take umbrage at the idea that the Premier league has a lower standard of coaching.

There are two managers (this year) who have won the Champions League in England. (Mourinho and LVG) who have also won La Liga.

Three different Premier League winners (Wenger, Mourinho, Pellegrini)

Two different Bundesliga winners
(Klopp, LVG)

And managers like Hiddink who has never won major titles yet has had a wealth of experience.

I'd argue that the Premier Lssgus has the best collection of managers around. With Pep coming next year it'll be more true than ever.
 
Twigginater said:
And managers like Hiddink who has never won major titles yet has had a wealth of experience.
Click to expand...
:lol: Hiddink has won the Champions League (or European Cup back then). Now you get even the things wrong that go in favour of the Premier League. Spectacular.
 
Twigginater said:
@RobinLFC thanks for taking the time to do that. There is no doubt that Barce and Real are better than the prem teams in Europe at the moment. I don't think there's been enough English teams playing Spanish teams (or taking the competition seriously) to compare the Europa league games. Can't believe there hasn't been a knock out tie in three years
However I really struggle to see the logic at the end, you seem to conclude the reason Chelsea and United are low is because they are playing shite football and are underperforming. I'd argue that they are just playing a higher level of team and thus look shite compared to others.

Using the Europa league as a barometer, West Ham aren't as good at the Maltese (?) champions and Southampton aren't as good as Mitjyland or whatever. The English teams struggle in Europa no doubt, I wonder if there's a reason for that?
Click to expand...

You honestly believe that Chelsea are not underperforming and Premier League has suddenly got amazing during the last 12 months? They walked the league with ease last season, they won't make Europe this season. Yes indeed, everyone else has got amazing.

And you are laughing if you think that Ferguson's United would not be winning this league at a canter. We'd be at least 10 points ahead currently with 06-11 team with complete ease, there is no team of Chelsea or Liverpool quality from back then that would push us. I mean, the title battle is between Spurs, Leicester and Arsenal, three teams that would not challenge for title in any other top league, would not be top 2 anywhere but France and would not even be top 4 in Spain (maybe one of them at a push could challenge Villarreal, not a chance for top 3).
 
Balu said:
:lol: Hiddink has won the Champions League (or European Cup back then). Now you get even the things wrong that go in favour of the Premier League. Spectacular.
Click to expand...
Champions League is not a major trophy. The only major trophy is Premier League trophy. If you don't win it, you may as well be dead.
 
Sarni said:
You honestly believe that Chelsea are not underperforming and Premier League has suddenly got amazing during the last 12 months? They walked the league with ease last season, they won't make Europe this season. Yes indeed, everyone else has got amazing.

And you are laughing if you think that Ferguson's United would not be winning this league at a canter. We'd be at least 10 points ahead currently with 06-11 team with complete ease, there is no team of Chelsea or Liverpool quality from back then that would push us. I mean, the title battle is between Spurs, Leicester and Arsenal, three teams that would not challenge for title in any other top league, would not be top 2 anywhere but France and would not even be top 4 in Spain (maybe one of them at a push could challenge Villarreal, not a chance for top 3).
Click to expand...

I think Chelsea have a world class squad and reinforced well (players like Pedro and Baba are some of the other leagues best players) but didn't realise that the league has dramatically improved in quality over the last two seasons.
 
Twigginater said:
I think Chelsea have a world class squad and reinforced well (players like Pedro and Baba are some of the other leagues best players) but didn't realise that the league has dramatically improved in quality over the last two seasons.
Click to expand...
So the league improved so much over Summer that it pushed champions into bottom half without them underperforming. This is one amazing leap in quality. From walking the league to struggling to get into Europe, I guess every other club has really done tremendous job, unheard of in history of football.
 
BTW this incredible improvement in the league has another side to it. On the other hand the league has regressed so badly that Leicester who were a relegation candidate last season are now comfortably first without overperforming. So while improving so much to push Chelsea down the league has forgot to not get so terrible to allow Leicester into first.
 
amolbhatia50k said:
:lol: Except the standard of La Liga is higher
Click to expand...
It has already been proven it isn't. Twigginater from RedCafe does not know any players outside of 6 clubs there. It's a terrible abysmal league.
 
Thinking about this it's embarrassing how terrible PL has become. I mean Leicester are playing exactly the same football as last season but finding it so easy to win games. Unthinkable really that a league could get so poor over the Summer that relegation cannon fodder become potential champions without upping their performance one bit.
 
Sarni said:
It has already been proven it isn't. Twigginater from RedCafe does not know any players outside of 6 clubs there. It's a terrible abysmal league.
Click to expand...
I actually do think the PL's lesser teams have improved but with the top teams having dropped off significantly, it is overall weaker. La liga's strength across the league matches the PL's while it's top teams are on different level altogether.

So the premier league is a strong league with great entertainment value, but the ignorance with which a league like la liga is played down by some is strange.

I mean going by some posts you'd think every la liga game is played at a casual stroll whereas every PL game is a Herculean task of athleticism. Someone needs to watch more la liga I think. Watch Las Palmas press Barcelona into near suffocation a few weeks back only to be beaten by individual quality. Or Madrid
 
Sarni said:
Thinking about this it's embarrassing how terrible PL has become. I mean Leicester are playing exactly the same football as last season but finding it so easy to win games. Unthinkable really that a league could get so poor over the Summer that relegation cannon fodder become potential champions without upping their performance one bit.
Click to expand...
Now you're also exaggerating. The PL isn't "embarrassing" at all. Sure the top teams are a bit shit, no doubt about that, but if anything, the rest of the league is in a very good condition. Leicester have definitely upped their performance levels massively. IMO you're doing their achievement a disservice.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.