The relative strength of the Premier League

duffer said:
I hate Spurs probably more than most on here but to be fair, this is nowhere near the first XI.
Click to expand...

Spurs squad has been massively over praised this season. The defence especially has been made to look average.
 
duffer said:
I hate Spurs probably more than most on here but to be fair, this is nowhere near the first XI.
Click to expand...

They do have some first teamers dotted around the side though... but yeah, the Spurs lineup obviously has to be taken into consideration, but then when you look how easy it has been for Dortmund, hard to see how a first choice Spurs side wouldn't have also been beaten comfortably by Dortmund.
 
Don't Spurs start without Kane, Dier, Ali and Dembele?

Even a full strength Spurs team is well behind Dortmund. The top teams in the PL are well behind the better teams in European right now.
 
bosnian_red said:
I do think that the mid level teams are stronger then before, considerably so. West ham, southampton, spurs, stoke, leicester, watford and others are all stronger then the teams their size of prior years. The main difference though is the best teams are so far behind the top teams in europe.

Sure, overall most of the league might be stronger and more competitive but there isnt a premier league team who is one of the top probably 7 teams in the world. Barca, bayern, atletico, real, PSG, juventus, dortmund are all way ahead of any premier league team and would win the title at a canter this season imo. Which says it all about the top teams. It cant be the best league when there are 7 teams from other leagues that are better then anything the prem has.
Click to expand...

Juventus and Dortmund would not walk this league. Juventus were below midtable early on this season. Dare I say, Real wouldn't walk the league too. Not with their issues this season.
 
amolbhatia50k said:
Don't Spurs start without Kane, Dier, Ali and Dembele?

Even a full strength Spurs team is well behind Dortmund. The top teams in the PL are well behind the better teams in European right now.
Click to expand...

I think not fielding their best players gives them the perfect excuse for justifying the defeat when they probably would have still lost with their first 11. There is no way someone can make me understand the reasoning behind resting your players like that when the team you're facing next is Aston Villa.
 
amolbhatia50k said:
Don't Spurs start without Kane, Dier, Ali and Dembele?

Even a full strength Spurs team is well behind Dortmund. The top teams in the PL are well behind the better teams in European right now.
Click to expand...
I agree. Also Dortmund didn't start Kagawa.... Gundogan and Subotic didn't play, etc. I think most of the teams in premier League are behind Dortmund. Moreover, teams like Barca, Bayern, Atletico, PSG, Juventus, Atlético.
 
kouroux said:
I think not fielding their best players gives them the perfect excuse for justifying the defeat when they probably would have still lost with their first 11. There is no way someone can make me understand the reasoning behind resting your players like that when the team you're facing next is Aston Villa.
Click to expand...
Dortmund are 5 behind Bayern so have just as much to play for. Kagawa was on the bench as was Sahin, Gundogan was injured. Dortmund have a better squad I guess. Why rest players for Villa doe?
 
Ignoring the pissing contest between the leagues for a moment, I just don't understand how anyone can believe that throwing a big game like that is the best way to win the league. It's such a missed opportunity to gain confidence and create momentum. Players should thrive to compete with the best teams in Europe and the Europa League actually offered that chance to Tottenham this season more than usual.

I actually wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't Pochettino who made the decision to play such a weakened side, but the club owner. It just seems so stupid and totally money oriented, because clubs don't really earn that much in the Europa League. The problem is, what message does it send to your squad, to the players? The club doesn't want you to actually win trophies, just play in games in which we can make more money? I don't get, it's like they're trying to breed soulless mercenaries as if there aren't already enough.

I'm sure they'll all be fired up for the exciting game against Villa though. So stupid.
 
Balu said:
Let's ignore Pep for now (and the possibility that you're on a wum because it could be a truely interesting debate), if we discuss the Premier League today and we should do the same with Klopp, because clearly he couldn't have had a big impact on the league yet.

I've touched on the manager problem in the Premier League before in a different thread and I actually think it's huge. If you look at the age of the managers at what should be the big four English clubs, you have United with van Gaal (64 years old), Chelsea with Hiddink (he's 69), City with Pellegrini (he's 62) and Arsenal with Wenger (he's 66). Compare that to the top performing teams in Europe right now. Barca with Enrique (he's 45), Atletico with Simeone (he's 45), Real with Zidane (he's 43), PSG with Blanc (he's 50), Bayern with Guardiola (again 45), Dortmund with Tuchel (he's 42), Juve with Allegri (he's 48).

Do you see a difference there? If we go back over the decades and look at what age managers usually did their best work, at what age managers created the truely great and era defining teams:

The Dutch managers and their big influence:
Rinus Michels was 37 when he took over at Ajax, won the European Cup at 43.
Johan Cruyff was 38 when he took over at Ajax, 41 when he took over at Barca. At age 45 he had won 2 Cup winner's Cup and one European Cup.
Van Gaal was 39 when he took over at Ajax, won the UEFA Cup when he was 40, then Champions League when he was 43

The Italian managers:
Trapattoni built his great Juve side in his late 30's/early 40's.
Sacchi built his great Milan side in his early 40's
Capello took over and did his best work at Milan in his first job in his late 40's.
Ancelotti followed soon, also in his early 40's.
Lippi did his best work at Juve in his late 40's.

We can go to different nations as well, Germany for example:
Udo Lattek was 35 when he took over at Bayern and built that 70's team that won 3 European Cups
Hitzfeld was 42 when he took over at Dortmund and build the team that dominated the Bundesliga and won the Champions League over the next 5 years

All these names have in common that they did their best work in their 30's and 40's, some were still good or great in their 50's, but in general they never reached their previous peak again.

Many people on the Caf love to belittle Barca for giving young managers a chance and talk like everyone could manage them, but that's shortsighted and false. What Barca is trying to do, what Milan and Juve did for decades during their successful era, what brought success to Dutch and German clubs is something entirely different. They tried to stay ahead of the game, constantly bring in forward thinking young managers with new ideas. The Premier League over the last years has done the exact opposite, just reacted, always one step behind but celebrating the big name managers who might already be past their peak.

Don't let Ferguson's legacy fool you, he's a one off. When the Premier League rose to the top in the 00's, they had forward thinking young managers in Wenger, Mourinho pushing Ferguson to adapt and he did. No one is pushing Wenger right now, no one is adapting. We'll see how Klopp and Guardiola can influence the league. But it wouldn't be surprising if they had already done their best work in the past. I don't think it's the case with them, they look driven and willing to learn and adapt to me, but we'll have to wait if that's really the case.

Sadly, Bayern has often done the same in the past and I've been fairly critical about that. We had some success with it, Hitzfeld was still young-ish at 50 when he took over in 1998. Heynckes was a rather unique case. But Trapattoni in the mid 90's was already past his peak and I've been critical about the appointment of Ancelotti as well, because we missed the chance to bring in a new forward thinking young mind. I hate it that Tuchel is at Dortmund and that the timing was off, so that we didn't get him.

To come back to your original post:

Undoubtly the Premier League has the biggest collection of managers with an impressive CV. But no one really cares about the old names anymore. There's nothing impressive about Wenger or Pellegrini. What's exciting for the league is the new guys coming in, Conte, Pep and Klopp. Pochettino stepping up. United should be careful that they don't end up with a manager who might not be as great anymore as he once was.
Click to expand...
Great post.
 
Balu said:
Ignoring the pissing contest between the leagues for a moment, I just don't understand how anyone can believe that throwing a big game like that is the best way to win the league. It's such a missed opportunity to gain confidence and create momentum. Players should thrive to compete with the best teams in Europe and the Europa League actually offered that chance to Tottenham this season more than usual.

I actually wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't Pochettino who made the decision to play such a weakened side, but the club owner. It just seems so stupid and totally money oriented, because clubs don't really earn that much in the Europa League. The problem is, what message does it send to your squad, to the players? The club doesn't want you to actually win trophies, just play in games in which we can make more money? I don't get, it's like they're trying to breed soulless mercenaries as if there aren't already enough.
Click to expand...

There are literally examples of clubs who used experience in the Europa League/UEFA Cup as a stepping stone to prolonged success in the CL (Porto, Atletico come to mind). The same issues with fixture congestion, squad size, different style of playing... apply in the CL as well as the EL. It's retarded that Tottenham will get no flack for throwing this fixture away, it could have been a great game. Plus it disrespects the fans who made it all the way out to Germany.
 
Premier league teams could easily win in Europe if they cared enough about it.

But the premier league is such a competitive league, that by the Wednesday/Thursday the English teams are drained.

Its unlike this other 1 team leagues where the top clubs merely play practise matches each week, freeing up their focus on the European competitions.

The best league and most popular league in the world, the premier league.
 
K2K said:
Premier league teams could easily win in Europe if they cared enough about it.

But the premier league is such a competitive league, that by the Wednesday/Thursday the English teams are drained.

Its unlike this other 1 team leagues where the top clubs merely play practise matches each week, freeing up their focus on the European competitions.

The best league and most popular league in the world, the premier league.
Click to expand...
And we just found that Twigginater uses two Caf accounts.
 
It's gotten to the point where I'm more annoyed by the constant sarcasm against the Premier League than by the ignorant and arrogant comments about other leagues.
 
The English teams do not care about the Europa at all.

It makes no financial sense to.

United and Liverpool do as they need the CL place and have nothing else to play for.

They do care about the CL and have underperformed there for a few years now. It will change.
 
adexkola said:
Juventus and Dortmund would not walk this league. Juventus were below midtable early on this season. Dare I say, Real wouldn't walk the league too. Not with their issues this season.
Click to expand...
They would walk this season. Without a doubt. If fecking leicester and spurs are first and second, juve or dortmund would be like 7 or 8 points ahead at least. Madrid woudnt walk the league? Come on :lol: Yes they have issues, but theyre compared to bayern and barca. Nobody in england comes even close. Especially this season.
 
I just don't get why Spurs would do something like this it seems incredibly short sighted and small time. Not sure how much this game tells us regarding the topic, though I think it was obvious that Spurs just couldn't keep up with Dortmund's pressing and tempo and I think such systematical problems can't be explained by not having their best XI alone.

adexkola said:
Juventus and Dortmund would not walk this league. Juventus were below midtable early on this season. Dare I say, Real wouldn't walk the league too. Not with their issues this season.
Click to expand...

Leicester are 5 points clear at the top and literally any top team from the continent could do what they do.
Real only have issues because they are compared to the very European Elite, the same teams which are several steps ahead of any English team.
 
bosnian_red said:
They would walk this season. Without a doubt. If fecking leicester and spurs are first and second, juve or dortmund would be like 7 or 8 points ahead at least. Madrid woudnt walk the league? Come on :lol: Yes they have issues, but theyre compared to bayern and barca. Nobody in england comes even close. Especially this season.
Click to expand...

There's a difference between being up top and walking the league. Barcelona would walk the league. Dortmund wouldn't. You making this assumption based on one game is fecking retarded. Me asserting the opposite is fecking retarded. So are these fecking league dick measuring asinine scenarios that would never happen in the real world
 
Ir seems that City and Liverpool could be the teams that represent the premier League in Europe.
We played with 2 English players (Smalling and Rashford, then Carrick).
 
adexkola said:
There's a difference between being up top and walking the league. Barcelona would walk the league. Dortmund wouldn't. You making this assumption based on one game is fecking retarded. Me asserting the opposite is fecking retarded. So are these fecking league dick measuring asinine scenarios that would never happen in the real world
Click to expand...
Im not saying it would happen in a normal season. But in a season where leicester are top but barely averaging 2 points a game (usually 3rd place level), i think its a safe bet to say they would. And its not based on one game. Its based on dortmund having a better side then anyone in the prem and only being 5 points away from Bayern in the bundesliga.
 
Revan said:
And we just found that Twigginater uses two Caf accounts.
Click to expand...
I should have also added that Barca and Real would struggle in the EPL due to the level of competition here, unlike their leagues that are a walk in a park.

Maybe then people would have caught on. It seems to have a flown over a lot of people's heads.

I threw in as many pro-EPL cliche's as I could without needing to use a white text to point out the obvious sarcasm.

The premier league is a great league, but it hasnt been the best league in the world for years. Unless you use some rather using arbitrary measure like calling it the most competitive league thus linking it to being the best somehow.
 
K2K said:
I should have also added that Barca and Real would struggle in the EPL due to the level of competition here, unlike their leagues that are a walk in a park.

Maybe then people would have caught on. It seems to have a flown over a lot of people's heads.

I threw in as many pro-EPL cliche's as I could without needing to use a white text to point out the obvious sarcasm.

The premier league is a great league, but it hasnt been the best league in the world for years. Unless you use some rather using arbitrary measure like calling it the most competitive league thus linking it to being the best somehow.
Click to expand...
Don't worry, it was clear that it was sarcasm. Just that it is something that you can see Twigginater posting.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.