Yeah just look at how great Liverpool are doing and compare it to the sad story of Dortmund.
The relative strength of the Premier League
- Thread starter Wumminator
- Start date
Dortmund got £32m for Goetze and they probably would have managed much more if not for the release clause. Also they lost Lewadowksi like Arsenal did with RVP
Don't think Leicester will manage to keep Mahrez this summer if a big club comes after him
Also Berahinho seems to be leaving this summer to Spurs so West Brom didn't manage to keep him
Dortmund lost players to Real, United and Bayern. English clubs can't hold on to their players when these clubs come calling either, don't kid yourself. The likes of Tottenham, Liverpool and even United couldn't (or needed a broken a fax machine to) keep players from joining the elite European clubs. Everton, West Brom and Leicester won't either once they produce players that the big clubs in Europe are interested in.
You keep arguing points that no-one is making and then acting superior. It's absolutely bizarre. Who said Liverpool are doing better than Dortmund?
I'm saying that teams in the premier league are more capable of holding on to their best players. Which is true is it not?
They quite literally did manage to keep him though. He didn't move and Spurs brought another player instead. I mean that literally happened.
Dortmund have regularly lost some of their big players to Bayern. Teams like Schalke will be losing their best players this summer.
It only delayed the inevitable for a year. Dortmund did the same with Lewandowski and kept him for a year and let him go for free instead of getting £20m the year before when bayern and us tried to sign him.
Also the thing you say about Schalke happens in this league too, look at Arsenal or Liverpool selling their best player every other year
So we've got a team like West Brom who are able to hold onto one of their best players in the face of a 20 million pound bid and they're about 15th in the table.
Does that not support my point? They might lose him next year. It doesn't mean that they haven't benefitted from keeping him and the fact they are able to turn down such money shows how well stacked the premier league is this year.
Yes that's fair enough and I don't know anything about the bottom bundesliga teams and their transfer business. But you shouldn't compare West Brom with Dortmund like u did earlier as it is nonsense
I'd be interested in this as well, when I judge the transfer business I'm only judging it on the completed transfers, are there any teams in Germany who are known for holding onto their players people who are more knowledgeable?
I want to know when we got so many Man Utd fans eager to defend the merits of other leagues.
at the title
at the titleI think it's impossible to compare teams from 8 to 20. From 1-7 it's easy. In other European leagues you also have good teams struggling: Leverkusen, Wolfsburg, Valencia are all well away from top 4. Wolfsburg knocked us out in Europe.
Honestly, do you not think by looking at the squad and the perceived quality of the players and their careers that you can begin to form an opinion on which teams are better?
Right, sorry. You actually compared them to WBA, Everton and Leicester.
Finally we've agreed on something
I think it's really important that with the advent of games like Fifa and Football Manager you gain a new type of fan who now has access to relatively detailed impressions of football players at the touch of the button. It suddenly isn't impressive to just know the English league, it's impressive to be able to be an "expert" on teams all around the world. It's physically impossible for the average fan to know more than 3/4 teams in depth I'd say, as with all the different kick off times and time spent at work/school you often don't get to watch most teams more than 3/4 times a season.
But it's obviously more impressive to know more about foreign players that say your average man down the pub doesn't recognise. So you get people IMO who rate "foreign" players over the English teams. It's become a badge of honour. "I know Schalke's best player" "He's never watched Mainz play"
Instead of people just watching football, it's important for them to act superior to others as well.
It'd be useful if you watched all leagues and knew exactly what players are capable of, how teams play - basically have a huge knowledge of the game in all these leagues. However as you've already said that you hardly watch any other leagues and have proven to have very limited knowledge, I don't see how you can possibly compare Eintracht with Southampton when you don't know anything about Eintracht. Big names mean very little in football, especially as some of big names in English lower half teams are players who failed elsewhere.
Did I say the teams were doing better than Dortmund? Or did I say they were able to keep their best players, something that even teams like Dortmund struggle to do?
I compared them on one aspect of the clubs. You boiled it down to a black and white comparison in order to...? I don't know?
Here's an analogy for what you keep doing.
Twigg: This Toyoata has broken down. But at least it costs 50.00 to repair it rather than the 200.00 it would cost if I had a Ferrari.
Do.ob: DUH! A Ferrari is a better car. You're so stupid for like Toyotas.
Well exactly, you cannot know much about Athletics and Mainzs of this world unless you have vast knowledge of the game and dedication to watch plenty of games. Why are you so adamant then that bottom half of PL is full of quality because you know players but Bundesliga and La Liga are abysmal because you don't recognize names there? Players like Kante and Mahrez you'd have dimissed before they came to PL, this is the point, you dismiss players you don't know but recognize quality of someone like M'Vila or Shaqiri because you know of them.
But.. no-one can do that? Who possibly has time to watch all leagues and know exactly what players are capable of. And there's plenty of big names in every league that have failed else where.
If I was to post an analysis of Manchester United v Port Vale (I am not saying that Rayo for example are on the level of Port Vale) you could tell comfortably from the teams' players who were better. If I posted United v Bruges you could do the same. Is it not possible to do it for say Sunderland v Rayo?
There might be hundreds of players of Kante's and Mahrez's ilk abroad. Maybe some of the players from bottom half German teams could come in the league and become the best players in the league. The only comparison basis we have at the minute where all teams participate are CL and EL and English clubs are not the best there.
The point I'd make is that due to the relative careers of someone like Lukaku, Douglas Costa, Shaqiri and others littered in the midtable of the premier league you know they are quality.
But as we know up until recently English teams didn't place a large importance in the Europe League, and a two round cup competition has too many variables to be able to say it means anything.
This is just silly. Port Vale are League Two side, they actually play in the same system as Man Utd so it's easy to compare, these are clubs from different tiers.
Sunderland and Rayo are teams from the same position from two different leagues. If you haven't watched one you cannot possibly say they are worse than the other just because you do not recognize their played. Actually having watched both Rayo and Sunderland 4-5 times this season I'd fancy Rayo.
Undoubtedly true.
But that argument doesn't work for posters who actually follow foreign leagues closely, because their own teams play in said leagues - and there are plenty of such posters on here.
Plus, it isn't impossible for someone who is very interested in football to be fairly up to date about what moves in the upper layers of European club football. That doesn't take exceptional dedication - you don't need much more than a fairly decent Internet connection and some time to kill.
Shaqiri only came to the league because he failed elsewhere. Actually Afellay has been used as example and he failed at Schalke. Lukaku is a good footballer playing for a mid-table side. So are a few of Valencia players, or Leverkusen and Wolfsburg players (Draxler for instance is excellent talent).
Douglas Costa doesn't even play in Premier League.
I knew you'd make that point about being in the same league, that's why I included Brugges
. It's fair enough but my point is there is obviously some point when you can recognise there is a gap in quality between the squads.Now as for your second point, you can't tell the quality of the teams by watching them in their respective leagues IMO. They are only competing in their own league, so if one league is harder it would look bad.
This thread was meant to be a fun hypothetical debate looking at different leagues.No different than the "draft" threads that happen all the time.
Yes but I'd argue while some posters are more knowledgeable about other leagues, they might know less about the premier league.
Balu has made some really good points in this thread, but I think I tried to counter them somewhat rationally.
For example Feret, Ruffier or Nampalys Mendy, they are better than most PL players.
I meant Diego!
Stopped reading there.
I knew you'd make that point about being in the same league, that's why I included Brugges
Now as for your second point, you can't tell the quality of the teams by watching them in their respective leagues IMO. They are only competing in their own league, so if one league is harder it would look bad.
This thread was meant to be a fun hypothetical debate looking at different leagues.No different than the "draft" threads that happen all the time.
So how do you compare them? Total money spent on players and amount of big names seems to be the only way for you. European competition is somehow not at all an indicator of quality even though almost half the league participates there these days.
You cannot dismiss players because you don't know them. This is mental. Kante would have been a shite idiot a year ago while Rodwell would be great talent. If you have no clue about Rayo, don't compare them with Sunderland. You cannot know which one is better.
Yeah I don't think it is in an indicator. Indeed I'd say that the fact we lost to PSV this year proves that. In a league system anywhere in the world if us two were in the same league we'd go ahead of them. However in the CL we are equals.
Edit:
One way of comparing that I have tried to do is posting similar teams. Another way is to look how players perform in each league. Another way might be to look at the relative transfers.
It's not easy, hence the myriad of discussion.
Ah, now we know why you're completely nuts.
How does it prove that? I think the fact that we lost to PSV proves that United are not a very good team at the minute. Southampton losing to Midtjylland proves the same. It's certainly a fair better indicator than saying Sunderland are great because you know all players but Rayo and Betis are crap because you never watched them.
If teams from one country are consistently doing well in Europe it means that they might have a good league there.
How do you know they aren't? Seems you are fine with you suggesting that players you know are far better than the ones you don't know but when sometimes compares players he's watched a lot with other players that he has watched a lot, you don't buy into this.
This is nuts.
Haven't English clubs relatively dominated their German counterparts in recent years? Everton beat Wolfsburg 6-1 on aggregate last season, then they knock us out and they're better than us?
I'm only playing devils advocate here, when I asked him that question I'm coming from the other side of you. I'm not saying "it's wrong to say that they are better" I'm saying "I've had people say that I can't make comparisons like this, you make a comparison like this, why do you think that?"
I'm hoping his answer provides some insight. Like you pointed out you said I couldn't compare players like that, so I'm interested in knowing why he is able to do so.
Ruffier or Mandanda aren't far from Lloris, Feret is better than the likes of Moussa Sissoko, veretout or Jordan Ayew, and the same applies with Nampalys Mendy. You see I just compared them to french players.
Ok. And just so we can continue this discussion how did you decide how close they are? Performance in the French national team?