The relative strength of the Premier League

jm99 said:
I don't know about including bayern alongside real and Barca, bayern always seem to have a strong side, but outside of the teams in Germany and German players, it's fairly rare to see them poach a player from city or psg or real or Barca. Real and Barca are quite clearly a tier above, and I think we would be as well once we're back to winning titles, but bayern don't pay massive fees, won't break the wage structure and play in a weaker domestic league. I wouldn't say they have the same pull.
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That’s a fair point. Bayern definitely isn’t at Real Madrid/Barcelona levels of pull for the very top players, and they don’t make huge signings nearly as often. So I’m okay with leaving them off the list of very top teams that pull very top players more.

One other related factor that I think is pretty significant with regards to Real Madrid/Barcelona/Bayern:

For obvious reasons of comfort/familiarity, very top players that are English/Spanish/German/Italian are pretty likely to just stay within their country’s league. They generally stay and go to a big club in that league. Assuming a roughly equal number of really top English, Spanish, German, and Italian players, this phenomenon is a bigger benefit to top clubs in leagues with fewer top clubs, because those clubs will be able to get more of their country’s very top players. For instance, if you’re a very top German player, you’ll very likely end up at Bayern Munich. If you’re a very top Spanish player, you’ll very likely end up at Barcelona or Real Madrid. But if you’re a very top English player, you’ll very likely end up at one of a much wider range of clubs (Manchester United, Manchester City, Liverpool, Chelsea, Arsenal, and perhaps Tottenham). Serie A is in between, with three big clubs there. In any event, the end result is that the top English talent is more widely dispersed across the EPL than the top German or Spanish talent is in their leagues. That is a benefit for Real Madrid, Barcelona, and Bayern Munich.
 
Dave Smith said:
However, the PL clubs that people would rank as say 8th-16th have vast resources to fight off the big clubs in their own leagues to avoid situations, as seen in other European leagues, where the top 1-4 clubs can wack them on the head with £10m's to secure their best players.

That for me is the principle reason the PL draws so much attention. It isn't because the top teams don't win the league consistently or because the teams from the league that qualify for Europe are so much better. It is mostly due to the lower ranking teams having enough fight in them to keep games 'honest' in that the top teams cannot raid the lower teams when the get a good player/have to keep a high level every week to ensure good results.

That just isn't really seen in other leagues. Thus, the top PL clubs aren't vastly superior to their European rivals, but the PL's mid to lower ranking sides can remain a lot more competitive.
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This is plausible, but as me and others have mentioned, being plausible doesn't make it true.
 
Zehner said:
I think in terms of pulling power, it is pretty hard to ignore PSG. Mbappe, Neymar and Messi are arguably the three biggest transfer since Cristiano Ronaldo to Madrid and all were done by Paris. Right at the moment, they're probably on par or even ahead of Madrid when you define pulling power as "most likely to get the player they want".
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PSG is not representative of Ligue 1’s strength though. They arguably have the best player in the league in every position on the pitch. Them not winning the league every season is 100% on them and proves the point that money is key to get the best players
 
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Looking at the 13-17th placed teams last season,

For the PL:

Leeds (17th) sold Raphinha to Barcelona and Kalvin Phillips to City. Everton (16th) sold Richarlison to Spurs. Aston Villa (14th) sold Ings to West Ham.

For La Liga:

Getafe (15th) sold Hugo Duro to Valencia and Mathias Olivera to Napoli. Elche (13th) sold Johan Mojica to Villareal. Mallorca (16th) sold Matthew Hoppe to Middlesbrough. Espanyol (14th) sold Raul de Tomas to Rayo Vallecano.

Not very clear to me that top teams are raiding La Liga's lower level teams more often than top level PL teams raid their own league.
 
Lessthanjake said:
For obvious reasons of comfort/familiarity, very top players that are English/Spanish/German/Italian are pretty likely to just stay within their country’s league. They generally stay and go to a big club in that league. Assuming a roughly equal number of really top English, Spanish, German, and Italian players, this phenomenon is a bigger benefit to top clubs in leagues with fewer top clubs, because those clubs will be able to get more of their country’s very top players. For instance, if you’re a very top German player, you’ll very likely end up at Bayern Munich. If you’re a very top Spanish player, you’ll very likely end up at Barcelona or Real Madrid. But if you’re a very top English player, you’ll very likely end up at one of a much wider range of clubs (Manchester United, Manchester City, Liverpool, Chelsea, Arsenal, and perhaps Tottenham). Serie A is in between, with three big clubs there. In any event, the end result is that the top English talent is more widely dispersed across the EPL than the top German or Spanish talent is in their leagues. That is a benefit for Real Madrid, Barcelona, and Bayern Munich.
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I think this is more true of the mid-level player than the very top player.

For every Mikel Arteta, who spent almost his entire career abroad, there's 9 other guys with comparable quality who spend most or all their career at home. A lot of these players have no interest in moving abroad, or don't have enormous career ambitions.

It's probably less true for a Spanish player than for an English player. But I think people sometimes assume that "less true" means "not true at all" and that every half-decent Spanish talent will gladly move abroad, when that is simply not the case.
 
jm99 said:
I don't know about including bayern alongside real and Barca, bayern always seem to have a strong side, but outside of the teams in Germany and German players, it's fairly rare to see them poach a player from city or psg or real or Barca. Real and Barca are quite clearly a tier above, and I think we would be as well once we're back to winning titles, but bayern don't pay massive fees, won't break the wage structure and play in a weaker domestic league. I wouldn't say they have the same pull.
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No one poaches players from these clubs though.
I agree, that Real and Barca are a tier above but Bayern is paying their players VERY well.
 
Acrobat7 said:
No one poaches players from these clubs though.
I agree, that Real and Barca are a tier above but Bayern is paying their players VERY well.
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They pay their players well but you have a fixed wage structure that you won't break so you're never really going to be in contention for players like mbappe or haaland, or even Salah or de bruyne. Bayern do very well obviously and are a very well run club, but I don't see them ever being in contention for top 10 players in the world as a destination
 
jm99 said:
They pay their players well but you have a fixed wage structure that you won't break so you're never really going to be in contention for players like mbappe or haaland, or even Salah or de bruyne. Bayern do very well obviously and are a very well run club, but I don't see them ever being in contention for top 10 players in the world as a destination
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And that's ok, Bayern have won the CL without an Mbappe or Messi.

They did have the likes of Ribery,Robben, and Lewandowski, but they became stars at Bayern.
 
FrankFoot said:
And that's ok, Bayern have won the CL without an Mbappe or Messi.

They did have the likes of Ribery,Robben, and Lewandowski, but they became stars at Bayern.
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Well yeah that's what I was saying, I don't think bayern are a bigger draw for players than somewhere like city or us, partially because they won't pay the exorbitant salaries that we will. They've been well managed and run and they turn players into stars, but I don't think they're even close to the appeal that Barca or Real still have to a lot of players
 
In the last decade, three players that I can think of moved from Real Madrid to United (Di Maria, Varane, Casemiro) and two moved from Real Madrid to Bayern (Xabi Alonso and James Rodriguez). Pretty similar numbers as far as "draw" goes.
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
In the last decade, three players that I can think of moved from Real Madrid to United (Di Maria, Varane, Casemiro) and two moved from Real Madrid to Bayern (Xabi Alonso and James Rodriguez). Pretty similar numbers as far as "draw" goes.
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And if you were to look at it totally in isolation with zero context that would probably be OK. Except Rodriguez was so surplus to requirements he went out on loan to bayern, and xabi alonso was nearly at the end of his career. I don't particularly count us getting Di Maria as stealing him from Madrid as they clearly wanted rid, but varane and casemiro are both clearly still great players at peak ages. Also if United routinely finishing outside the top 4 has the same pull as a bayern that wins the title every year and won the champions league twice in the last decade, that says something about the actual pull of the clubs
 
Acrobat7 said:
No one poaches players from these clubs though.
I agree, that Real and Barca are a tier above but Bayern is paying their players VERY well.
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This is the reason why Bayern is in the same bracket as PSG/Barca/Real. (I am not sure about the accuracy of these data, but that is an idea)

The 50 highest annual wage bills in Europe’s Big 5 leagues

Take a look below for the full top 50 rankings. Note: all figures are in GBP.

1. PSG – £348.1million
2. Barcelona – £285.6million
3. Real Madrid – £250.3million
4. Bayern Munich – £237.6million
5. Manchester United – £223million
6. Chelsea – £169.7million
7. Manchester City – £163.1million
8. Juventus – £143million
9. Atletico Madrid – £142.5million
10. Liverpool – £141.8million
11. Internazionale – £113.6million
12. Tottenham – £101.3million
13. Arsenal – £85.5million
14. Borussia Dortmund – £85.2million
15. Roma – £82million
16. Leicester City – £78.8million
17. Sevilla – £77.6million
18. Aston Villa – £75.2million
19. RB Leipzig – £73.6million
20. Villarreal – £73.2million
21. AC Milan – £72.7million
22. West Ham United – £70.2million
23. Lazio – £63.1million
24. Newcastle United – £62.6million
25. Napoli – £61.1million
26. Crystal Palace – £59.2million
27. Athletic Bilbao – £56.9million
28. Marseille – £46.5million
29. Fiorentina – £46.3million
30. Everton – £43.1million
31. Monaco – £41.4million
33. Bayer Leverkusen – £39.2million
33. Real Betis – £38.8million
34. Wolves – £38.3million
35. Valencia – £38.2million
36. Fulham – £37.6million
37. Atalanta – £35.9million
38. Southampton – £35.4million
39. Lyon – £35million
40. Borussia Monchengladbach – £33million
41. Wolfsburg – £32.7million
42. Bournemouth – £32million
43. Monza – £32million
44. Hoffenheim – £31.5million
45. Nottingham Forest – £28.6million
46. Brighton – £28.3million
47. Real Sociedad – £28.2million
48. Nice – £26.7million
49. Torino – £25.4million
50. Sassuolo – £24.5million

https://www.planetfootball.com/quic...op-leagues-man-utd-psg-barcelona-real-madrid/
 
jm99 said:
And if you were to look at it totally in isolation with zero context that would probably be OK. Except Rodriguez was so surplus to requirements he went out on loan to bayern, and xabi alonso was nearly at the end of his career. I don't particularly count us getting Di Maria as stealing him from Madrid as they clearly wanted rid, but varane and casemiro are both clearly still great players at peak ages.
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Think you're exaggerating the differences a bit. Alonso had just been a key player for Real Madrid's CL win right before he moved. He was 32, 2 years older than Casemiro when he moved to United. As for being 'surplus to requirements', that is always true in some sense of any top level player who is sold by a top club to another top club. Otherwise there wouldn't be a sale. Casemiro had a contract until 2025, Real Madrid could have simply said "no thanks" if they felt like it.

Also, there is a former City player at Bayern Munich (Leroy Sane), but afaik the opposite isn't true. Kevin de Bruyne's agent said he first agreed to join Bayern and only moved to City after Bayern refused to pay more than 50m. Gundogan has also said he had talks with Bayern Munich before City. I think the average player is more likely to reject United than Bayern, certainly. City probably about the same.
 
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jm99 said:
They pay their players well but you have a fixed wage structure that you won't break so you're never really going to be in contention for players like mbappe or haaland, or even Salah or de bruyne. Bayern do very well obviously and are a very well run club, but I don't see them ever being in contention for top 10 players in the world as a destination
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I am pretty sure that Neuer and Lewandowski are/were not earning less at Bayern than Salah or de Bruyne at their respective clubs.
 
Acrobat7 said:
I am pretty sure that Neuer and Lewandowski are/were not earning less at Bayern than Salah or de Bruyne at their respective clubs.
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Bayern has top management that doesn't over pay transfer fee in player recruitment, and at the same time maintains its competitiveness in CL. They paid top salaries among the industry to keep their star players.
 
ThierryHenry14 said:
This is the reason why Bayern is in the same bracket as PSG/Barca/Real. (I am not sure about the accuracy of these data, but that is an idea)

The 50 highest annual wage bills in Europe’s Big 5 leagues

Take a look below for the full top 50 rankings. Note: all figures are in GBP.

1. PSG – £348.1million
2. Barcelona – £285.6million
3. Real Madrid – £250.3million
4. Bayern Munich – £237.6million
5. Manchester United – £223million
6. Chelsea – £169.7million
7. Manchester City – £163.1million
8. Juventus – £143million
9. Atletico Madrid – £142.5million
10. Liverpool – £141.8million
11. Internazionale – £113.6million
12. Tottenham – £101.3million
13. Arsenal – £85.5million
14. Borussia Dortmund – £85.2million
15. Roma – £82million
16. Leicester City – £78.8million
17. Sevilla – £77.6million
18. Aston Villa – £75.2million
19. RB Leipzig – £73.6million
20. Villarreal – £73.2million
21. AC Milan – £72.7million
22. West Ham United – £70.2million
23. Lazio – £63.1million
24. Newcastle United – £62.6million
25. Napoli – £61.1million
26. Crystal Palace – £59.2million
27. Athletic Bilbao – £56.9million
28. Marseille – £46.5million
29. Fiorentina – £46.3million
30. Everton – £43.1million
31. Monaco – £41.4million
33. Bayer Leverkusen – £39.2million
33. Real Betis – £38.8million
34. Wolves – £38.3million
35. Valencia – £38.2million
36. Fulham – £37.6million
37. Atalanta – £35.9million
38. Southampton – £35.4million
39. Lyon – £35million
40. Borussia Monchengladbach – £33million
41. Wolfsburg – £32.7million
42. Bournemouth – £32million
43. Monza – £32million
44. Hoffenheim – £31.5million
45. Nottingham Forest – £28.6million
46. Brighton – £28.3million
47. Real Sociedad – £28.2million
48. Nice – £26.7million
49. Torino – £25.4million
50. Sassuolo – £24.5million

https://www.planetfootball.com/quic...op-leagues-man-utd-psg-barcelona-real-madrid/
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those figures look way off to me.
For the English clubs that looks like from a few years ago?
 
The Purley King said:
those figures look way off to me.
For the English clubs that looks like from a few years ago?
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There are so many data in the internet and I have no idea which one is correct. It does give you an idea about the salary in the industry.

EPL (GBP, 2022/2023)
https://www.statista.com/statistics...-in-football-clubs-english-premier-league-uk/

Li Liga (Euro, 2020/2021)
https://www.statista.com/statistics/675461/average-la-liga-salary-by-team/

Serie A (Euro, 2022/2023)
https://www.statista.com/statistics/675470/average-serie-a-salary-by-team/

Bundesliga (Euro, 2022/2023)
https://www.statista.com/statistics/675490/average-bundesliga-salary-by-team/
 
ThierryHenry14 said:
There are so many data in the internet and I have no idea which one is correct. It does give you an idea about the salary in the industry.

EPL (GBP, 2022/2023)
https://www.statista.com/statistics...-in-football-clubs-english-premier-league-uk/

Li Liga (Euro, 2020/2021)
https://www.statista.com/statistics/675461/average-la-liga-salary-by-team/

Serie A (Euro, 2022/2023)
https://www.statista.com/statistics/675470/average-serie-a-salary-by-team/

Bundesliga (Euro, 2022/2023)
https://www.statista.com/statistics/675490/average-bundesliga-salary-by-team/
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I guess they may be correct but I can’t believe that we spend £60m more than city and £80m more than Liverpool on wages.
Annoying if it is correct!
 
Acrobat7 said:
I am pretty sure that Neuer and Lewandowski are/were not earning less at Bayern than Salah or de Bruyne at their respective clubs.
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Yes but I'd imagine to move to a new club both would have wanted a substantial salary bump that bayern wouldn't be willing to provide to prise them away
 
jm99 said:
Yes but I'd imagine to move to a new club both would have wanted a substantial salary bump that bayern wouldn't be willing to provide to prise them away
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I don't really know which couple of players you are talking about but Lewandowski and Neuer earned way more than Salah and De Bruyne. Both Bayern players earned more than 400k€ per week. The only clubs routinely willing to pay higher wages than Bayern are Real Madrid, Barcelona and PSG.
 
JPRouve said:
I don't really know which couple of players you are talking about but Lewandowski and Neuer earned way more than Salah and De Bruyne. Both Bayern players earned more than 400k€ per week. The only clubs routinely willing to pay higher wages than Bayern are Real Madrid, Barcelona and PSG.
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They tend not to offer that to new players though do they? It's part of why they're well run, whereas we have sancho, varane, casemiro and Ronaldo when he was here all on massive contracts from the moment they signed. Bayern seem to reward loyalty and good performances, but they're not offering these enormous salaries to try and attract players from other clubs
 
jm99 said:
They tend not to offer that to new players though do they? It's part of why they're well run, whereas we have sancho, varane, casemiro and Ronaldo when he was here all on massive contracts from the moment they signed. Bayern seem to reward loyalty and good performances, but they're not offering these enormous salaries to try and attract players from other clubs
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They also rarely sign players that could really demand such numbers, but more often players that can evolve to that status. And yes, those are then well rewarded by Bayern's board, if they are convinced. Which isn't always happening, they lost Kroos simply because they thought he isn't worth as much as other players in the squad, he thought he was. Was a mistake on Bayern's behalf considering what he has won since.
 
jm99 said:
They tend not to offer that to new players though do they? It's part of why they're well run, whereas we have sancho, varane, casemiro and Ronaldo when he was here all on massive contracts from the moment they signed. Bayern seem to reward loyalty and good performances, but they're not offering these enormous salaries to try and attract players from other clubs
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There are no rules on that point. Lewandowski got a massive contract when he joined them and at the time one of the largest signing bonus. The only rule for Bayern is that your wage will match with what they think of you as a player and your place in the team.

Mané is allegedly close to that bracket, as have been a number of their top signings someone like Sané earns a lot. Your wage depends on who you are or who they think you are. And an important point for United fans, none of these clubs give a damn about lesser players potentially crying about not being paid like the top earners, there is a large gap between the top earner and the average earners.
 
The Purley King said:
I guess they may be correct but I can’t believe that we spend £60m more than city and £80m more than Liverpool on wages.
Annoying if it is correct!
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It also gives you a picture of salaries offered in the top clubs. As a general rule of thumb, the higher salary a club paid, the better quality of its team. That's why Barca/Real/PSG/Bayern are in the same bracket, and they are attractive destinations for top players. There are other factors too but this just answer why these 4 clubs are in the same bracket.
 
jm99 said:
Well yeah that's what I was saying, I don't think bayern are a bigger draw for players than somewhere like city or us, partially because they won't pay the exorbitant salaries that we will. They've been well managed and run and they turn players into stars, but I don't think they're even close to the appeal that Barca or Real still have to a lot of players
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I do not think this is accurate. They do bring in star players when needed (maybe not Messi/CR7 or Neymar/Mbappé). But I very much doubt Mané (second on the Ballon d'Or) and M. de Ligt are on normal wages. They both left some extremely well paid contracts to join Bayern this summer...
 
ThierryHenry14 said:
This is the reason why Bayern is in the same bracket as PSG/Barca/Real. (I am not sure about the accuracy of these data, but that is an idea)

The 50 highest annual wage bills in Europe’s Big 5 leagues

Take a look below for the full top 50 rankings. Note: all figures are in GBP.

1. PSG – £348.1million
2. Barcelona – £285.6million
3. Real Madrid – £250.3million
4. Bayern Munich – £237.6million
5. Manchester United – £223million
6. Chelsea – £169.7million
7. Manchester City – £163.1million
8. Juventus – £143million
9. Atletico Madrid – £142.5million
10. Liverpool – £141.8million
11. Internazionale – £113.6million
12. Tottenham – £101.3million
13. Arsenal – £85.5million
14. Borussia Dortmund – £85.2million
15. Roma – £82million
16. Leicester City – £78.8million
17. Sevilla – £77.6million
18. Aston Villa – £75.2million
19. RB Leipzig – £73.6million
20. Villarreal – £73.2million
21. AC Milan – £72.7million
22. West Ham United – £70.2million
23. Lazio – £63.1million
24. Newcastle United – £62.6million
25. Napoli – £61.1million
26. Crystal Palace – £59.2million
27. Athletic Bilbao – £56.9million
28. Marseille – £46.5million
29. Fiorentina – £46.3million
30. Everton – £43.1million
31. Monaco – £41.4million
33. Bayer Leverkusen – £39.2million
33. Real Betis – £38.8million
34. Wolves – £38.3million
35. Valencia – £38.2million
36. Fulham – £37.6million
37. Atalanta – £35.9million
38. Southampton – £35.4million
39. Lyon – £35million
40. Borussia Monchengladbach – £33million
41. Wolfsburg – £32.7million
42. Bournemouth – £32million
43. Monza – £32million
44. Hoffenheim – £31.5million
45. Nottingham Forest – £28.6million
46. Brighton – £28.3million
47. Real Sociedad – £28.2million
48. Nice – £26.7million
49. Torino – £25.4million
50. Sassuolo – £24.5million

https://www.planetfootball.com/quic...op-leagues-man-utd-psg-barcelona-real-madrid/
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Not a single one of those wages is correct, use deloitte's money league or go on the IR site for clubs like united.
 
Acrobat7 said:
Sadio Mané? De Ligt?
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I don't know that de ligt is on that much more than at juventus, mane fair enough but you did get him awfully cheap. My point wasn't that bayern weren't a draw at all, but I don't think they're in that upper level with real Madrid and Barcelona, where the pl money doesn't offset the desire to play for those clubs, bayern aren't on that tier with them. We probably would be if we start winning titles again, but with our lack of success we're not there.
 
I mean it was 8th against second. Miss match. The Barca United game is a better indicator and was a great even game 2 2
 
Milan - Tottenham 1-0
BVB - Chelsea 1-0
Liverpool - Real Madrid 2-5

Everyone must now support Manchester City tomorrow to avoid a disastrous 0/4.
 
Zen86 said:
None of these teams are exactly lighting up the PL this season.
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Yeah that's the interesting thing about this season.

Liverpool and Chelsea are having nightmare seasons, Spurs are shite with a manager the fans dislike and who is clearly off in the summer.

Even City are having an inconsistent season by their standards.
 
The depths of the PL is where it is unrivaled. Out of form are Chelsea and Liverpool, up are Arsenal, United, and Newcastle (sort of, I guess).

Then Brighton after their upheaval from Potter's departure and some backroom staff, are a top 8 club who play really good football that wouldn't be foreign to the football played on the continent.
 
2 of the 3 current best PL teams aren't in the CL. No surprise PL teams are struggling.
 
There is a lot of churn in the PL this season. I’m not sure either United or Arsenal are good enough to win it but they wouldn’t be overrun 5-2 at home.
 
arnie_ni said:
I mean it was 8th against second. Miss match. The Barca United game is a better indicator and was a great even game 2 2
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We are in a good spell but Real would still probably manhandle us over the two legs. I know they haven’t even been at their best in the league but whatever happens they just go out and sign the very best young players in the world year after year. Most of their bench would still start for the competing teams and they were able let a few aging but very important players leave on good terms for big enough money. They are in transition. Once their youth clicks they’ll just go into another cycle. They are also free to keep signing these top shelf kind of players without any real competition now that Barca are broke.
 
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