The relative strength of the Premier League

The Premier League had to develop it's own stars in the 90s and 2000s whereas La Liga and Serie A would just buy them.

Other than Ruud, all those players you listed above were developed.

None were bought as stars.

The whole reason Manchester United ascended to where it did was because of the class of 92 and was the only reason we were able to compete in Europe.

This isn't really true unless you play games with the definition of "develop."

Henry was not "developed" by the Premier League, he had a strong career in Monaco. He just happened to have a failed move to Juventus, after which he moved to Arsenal.

The rest of the players were "developed" by the PL in the sense that they are English. But that was also true for Serie A and to a lesser extent, La Liga. Serie A had players like Vieri, del Piero, Buffon, Pirlo, Gattuso, Nesta, etc. La Liga had Raul, Casillas, Xavi, etc.

That's not to mention the many players who joined these leagues when they were not 'stars', such as Roberto Carlos, Batistuta, Veron, Nedved, Rivaldo. Many of these players had played similar amount of professional games as Henry or Ruud.
 
It's not very hard to figure out league(s) is most competitive or most appealing outside their respective countries. That the Broadcasting rights out of the country for EPL is 24 times more worth than for Ligue 1 is no surprise.

Except it’s not how it started…

The good results of the last five years are the result of the increased investment in the PL, not the other way around... In 2010/2013 the tv rights of the PL were worth (2,5B domestic and 2,2Bs international)… In January 2016 these figures had jumped to 6,6B and 5,1B… About 60% increase. Only justified by what I explained earlier: A strong desire from those investors (Abu Dhabi, Murdoch..) to make the PL a super league… And it is working.

Between 2013 and 2016, the period that saw the biggest TV rights increase (+60%), English club were pretty poor in Europe… City won the league but was more likely to exit in group stage than get far and the UEFA coefficient showed it clearly. The EPL was far behind the Spanish league in that period. And not much better than Serie A/BL. The main reason Rodgers’ Pool could fight for it in and Ranieri’s Leicester could win the PL in 2016 was the pretty average level of the league back then (plus the absence of a Juve/PSG/Bayern— I believe Atletico might have won that PL 4 times in a row if they’d played in it...).
 
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Not many of the foreigners in England are world class. Correct me if I am wrong but who of the current greats have had a transfer to England at their peak level? Neymar? Messi?Lewandowski?Benzema? None of them...

Yes there was Cristiano but he was brought in as talent and left when he was world class, same for Suarez, same for Henry, same for Van Nistelrooy, same for Forlan etc
The only way you get world class players in the EPL is when they're looking for a final grand paycheck. Cristiano, Zlatan, Vialli, Shevshenko, Gullit, Schweinsteiger, Klinsmann when they have already dropped a level or two in quality etc
When foreign players reach their peak they're off to Barca or Real and when they were still great the big Italian teams.

This is just for the last 20 years. Before that foreigners were a rarity in England. Uncomparable with the Serie A for example who were able to attracts all the big stars in the world during the 80s and 90s (I'm not even starting a list of names there are just too many of them) just like what La Liga was doing but to a somewhat lesser extent. I remember at least 4 players of the mighty 1950s Hungarian national team that played in Spain, there was Di Stefano, Kubala, Breitner, Cruyff, Rep, Butragueno, Stoichkov, Laudrup, Simonsen, Litmanen, Kempes...

I mean I can go on, the list of names is endless. It is thanks to the incredible talent of British players over the years that English clubs have always maintained their competition for the big Spanish and Italian teams and not because they could attract world class foreign players because they clearly couldn't or were not willing to do so.

This is starting to change though, look at city, despite having players like aguero, de Bruyne, David silva, kompany, none of them tried to force a move at any point. There's never been a real period of sustained success in Europe by PL teams before now, the closest was from 06-09 when Chelsea arsenal and Liverpool were all good, but it only led to 2 victories, whereas la liga had 6 of the last 10 currently, so it's still the top destination. But city have shown that when they have continued domestic dominance, pay their players well and get far in Europe they can retain the best talent in the world, this is a big difference from even the previous decade. With the financial imbalance that's occurring and not going anywhere, more PL teams will be able to do this
 
This is starting to change though, look at city, despite having players like aguero, de Bruyne, David silva, kompany, none of them tried to force a move at any point. There's never been a real period of sustained success in Europe by PL teams before now, the closest was from 06-09 when Chelsea arsenal and Liverpool were all good, but it only led to 2 victories, whereas la liga had 6 of the last 10 currently, so it's still the top destination. But city have shown that when they have continued domestic dominance, pay their players well and get far in Europe they can retain the best talent in the world, this is a big difference from even the previous decade. With the financial imbalance that's occurring and not going anywhere, more PL teams will be able to do this
The two Madrid clubs and Barca are fine as their revenue are extremely strong. The same can't be said for the rest of the la Liga clubs, and it does affect the strength of their domestic league. Those three clubs can always attract the best talent as long as they can pay top wages, in addition of nice weather and city. The discussion is about the strength of domestic league, not the strength of Real Madrid and Barcelona. At this moment West Ham has the same revenue as Inter and Milan.

What’s the Average Salary in the Premier League and La Liga?
RankPL TeamAVG Annual/PlayerLa Liga TeamAVG Annual/Player
1Manchester City$8,734,375Barcelona$12,284,555
2Man United$7,657,000Real Madrid$11,154,693
3Liverpool$6,922,000Atletico Madrid$7,039,205
4Arsenal$5,987,800Valencia$3,123,873
5Chelsea$5,967,500Sevilla$2,466,863
6Everton$5,127,200Athletic Bilbao$2,092,775
7Tottenham$4,951,304Villarreal$1,729,541
8Leicester$4,191,200Celta Vigo$1,609,156
9West Ham$3,777,800Real Sociedad$1,567,008
10Crystal Palace$3,609,375Real Betis$1,477,190
11Southampton$2,874,300Espanyol$1,255,233
12Wolves$2,746,957Leganes$947,003
13Newcastle$2,607,800Levante$875,796
14Watford$2,531,389Getafe$871,133
15Aston Vila$2,457,000Granada$806,998
16Bournemouth$2,397,200Eibar$792,853
17Burnley$2,394,167Alaves$638,490
18Brighton$2,256,630Mallorca$605,463
19Norwich$1,238,750Valladolid$508,204
20Sheff Utd$910,000Osasuna$452,806
In the 2019/20 season, Premier League clubs paid a total of $1.97bn in player salaries. (USD)

https://www.wsn.com/premier-league/premier-league-vs-la-liga/

https://www.statista.com/statistics/675470/average-serie-a-salary-by-team/

https://www.statista.com/statistics...-in-football-clubs-english-premier-league-uk/

https://www.statista.com/statistics/675461/average-la-liga-salary-by-team/
 
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The two Madrid clubs and Barca are fine as their revenue are extremely strong. The same can't be said for the rest of the la Liga clubs, and it does affect the strength of their domestic league. Those three clubs can always attract the best talent as long as they can pay top wages, in addition of nice weather and city. The discussion is about the strength of domestic league, not the strength of Real Madrid and Barcelona. At this moment West Ham has the same revenue as Inter and Milan.

What’s the Average Salary in the Premier League and La Liga?
RankPL TeamAVG Annual/PlayerLa Liga TeamAVG Annual/Player
1Manchester City$8,734,375Barcelona$12,284,555
2Man United$7,657,000Real Madrid$11,154,693
3Liverpool$6,922,000Atletico Madrid$7,039,205
4Arsenal$5,987,800Valencia$3,123,873
5Chelsea$5,967,500Sevilla$2,466,863
6Everton$5,127,200Athletic Bilbao$2,092,775
7Tottenham$4,951,304Villarreal$1,729,541
8Leicester$4,191,200Celta Vigo$1,609,156
9West Ham$3,777,800Real Sociedad$1,567,008
10Crystal Palace$3,609,375Real Betis$1,477,190
11Southampton$2,874,300Espanyol$1,255,233
12Wolves$2,746,957Leganes$947,003
13Newcastle$2,607,800Levante$875,796
14Watford$2,531,389Getafe$871,133
15Aston Vila$2,457,000Granada$806,998
16Bournemouth$2,397,200Eibar$792,853
17Burnley$2,394,167Alaves$638,490
18Brighton$2,256,630Mallorca$605,463
19Norwich$1,238,750Valladolid$508,204
20Sheff Utd$910,000Osasuna$452,806
In the 2019/20 season, Premier League clubs paid a total of $1.97bn in player salaries. (USD)

https://www.wsn.com/premier-league/premier-league-vs-la-liga/

https://www.statista.com/statistics/675470/average-serie-a-salary-by-team/

https://www.statista.com/statistics...-in-football-clubs-english-premier-league-uk/

https://www.statista.com/statistics/675461/average-la-liga-salary-by-team/

It's not even just the TV rights and revenues though, I reckon within about 10--15 years each of the top 7 clubs (big 6 plus newcastle) will have some form of sugar daddy owners. This will make it impossible for other clubs to compete if they really start throwing the cash about, look at Chelsea, 600m in a season it's looking like coming up to, and they're not even close to as rich as Newcastle or City. I know spending isn't a guaranteed win, but there's a huge correlation and the Premier league looks like it's going to keep being the preferred destination for massive amounts of oil money
 
Chelsea have been 'really throwing cash around' for the last 5 years and they suck ass.
 
Except it’s not how it started…

The good results of the last five years are the result of the increased investment in the PL, not the other way around... In 2010/2013 the tv rights of the PL were worth (2,5B domestic and 2,2Bs international)… In January 2016 these figures had jumped to 6,6B and 5,1B… About 60% increase. Only justified by what I explained earlier: A strong desire from those investors (Abu Dhabi, Murdoch..) to make the PL a super league… And it is working.

Between 2013 and 2016, the period that saw the biggest TV rights increase (+60%), English club were pretty poor in Europe… City won the league but was more likely to exit in group stage than get far and the UEFA coefficient showed it clearly. The EPL was far behind the Spanish league in that period. And not much better than Serie A/BL. The main reason Rodgers’ Pool could fight for it in and Ranieri’s Leicester could win the PL in 2016 was the pretty average level of the league back then (plus the absence of a Juve/PSG/Bayern— I believe Atletico might have won that PL 4 times in a row if they’d played in it...).
I don't disagree.

Right now though the EPL is much stronger than the rest of the other big leagues, especially the further down the table you look. Hence why you also see 16 out of the top 30 clubs in the world on the revenue list is EPL clubs.
The relative strength gap between EPL/LaLiga and the rest has never been bigger bar Bayern and PSG than it is right now.

The bottom 3 teams in the EPL right now are Everton, West Ham and Southampton.......that's the relative strenght of the EPL at the moment.

Sidenote:
Ligue 1 and why it has little appeal outside of France.
The fact that PSG has more than 5 times the revenue than the 2nd biggest club in France makes Ligue 1 a lot less competitive. Angers entire squad for instance is worth around Wan Bissaka's left leg (EUR 24M, Transfermarkt), and 11 squads are worth less than Maguire (EUR 98M), Mbappe/Marquinos/Hakimi are worth more than any other entire squad in Ligue 1, Mbappe alone is worth more than 2nd placed Lens entire squad and so on....it's just not interesting for anyone outside of France to see if PSG is up for the task of beating championship and bottom half of EPL quality teams 38 times a season. 2nd placed Lens's squad value is lower than every EPL squad (I know squadvalues isn't an exact science, but it's indicative of the market value of team/league). This is also why players like Neymar and Mbappe won't (and rightfullly so) get the credit their football qualities deserves. It's baffling how they have chosen money over competitiveness in a sport they have all the talent to dominate on a harder level on a weekly basis.
 
The €€€ lobbying of the Emirate states inside the European Parliament and UEFA being in the pocket of Khelaifi’s masters make almost impossible to have in the coming months an EuroLeague of football, without the English clubs and without the divisions paid for by Qatari associates.
 
It's not even just the TV rights and revenues though, I reckon within about 10--15 years each of the top 7 clubs (big 6 plus newcastle) will have some form of sugar daddy owners. This will make it impossible for other clubs to compete if they really start throwing the cash about, look at Chelsea, 600m in a season it's looking like coming up to, and they're not even close to as rich as Newcastle or City. I know spending isn't a guaranteed win, but there's a huge correlation and the Premier league looks like it's going to keep being the preferred destination for massive amounts of oil money

There will be FFP and clubs will not be able to spend what they want no matter how much money they have.

In 3 years you can spend a maximum of 70% of the income on the wage bill. And the income has to be generated by the club.
 
The bottom 3 teams in the EPL right now are Everton, West Ham and Southampton.......that's the relative strenght of the EPL at the moment.

Point is no top players really want to go there (yet), they still prefer farmers leagues’ top clubs… so you have all this financial power wasted on massively overpaid average or above-average players.
 
There will be FFP and clubs will not be able to spend what they want no matter how much money they have.

In 3 years you can spend a maximum of 70% of the income on the wage bill. And the income has to be generated by the club.

oh-wait-youre-serious.gif
 
I hadn't even realized, but this thread is from 2016. This is from the first post:

I think we couldn’t be further from the truth. We actually have the strongest league I think I’ve ever seen right now, the quality is immense.

This is Manchester United, currently (and comfortably) fifth.


---------------DDG-------------
Darmian- Smalling – Blind – Young
------------Carrick---Schniderlin-------
Martial-------Mata---------Memphis
---------------Rooney-------------

Subs: Romero, Jones, Lingard, Herrera, Shaw, Valencia, Fellaini

Now all of these players are recognized internationals and we have some proper world class talent. DDG, Martial and Smalling the real stand outs.

That lineup is a boulevard of broken dreams.
 
The Premier League had to develop it's own stars in the 90s and 2000s whereas La Liga and Serie A would just buy them.

Other than Ruud, all those players you listed above were developed.

None were bought as stars.

The whole reason Manchester United ascended to where it did was because of the class of 92 and was the only reason we were able to compete in Europe.

La Liga and Serie A are in a similar position to where the Premier League was 30 years ago and will have to adapt, innovate and produce their own stars and be better in the transfer market.

Many of the players that moved to Serie A in the 90s and 2000s became stars in Serie A, like Zidane(from Bordeaux), Lilian Thuram (from Monaco), Nedved(from Sparta Prague), Schevchenko(from Dynamo Kiev), Mihjalovic(from Red Star Belgrade), Zvonimir Boban(Dynamo Zagreb), Batistuta(from Boca Juniors), Javier Zanetti (from Banfield), etc neither of them were world class established players before they moved to Italy...all of them super talented, but far from established world class players.

Only a few like Savicevic, R9, Deschamps, and Edgard Davids were established before they moved to Italy.
 
What relative strength am I looking at here.

West Ham is an anomaly there and likely won't be in a relegation zone for too long, but Everton and Southampton are legitimately one of the worst teams in the league squad-wise. And I'd argue they have stronger squads (and financial pull to further improve it) than a lot of mid table teams in Spain, Italy or Germany.
 
West Ham is an anomaly there and likely won't be in a relegation zone for too long, but Everton and Southampton are legitimately one of the worst teams in the league squad-wise. And I'd argue they have stronger squads (and financial pull to further improve it) than a lot of mid table teams in Spain, Italy or Germany.

Maybe that's because you don't watch other leagues. When I look at Westham, there are players I don't know at all and players I'd want nowhere near my club with the exception of Bella-Kotchap maybe. But the vast majority are players who I never saw play respectively don't remember probably just like you with midtable clubs in Spain, Germany or France. My impression is that this team would fight for relegation in the Bundesliga as well but let's be honest, I don't have time to watch Southampton so how would I know?
 
And I'd argue they have stronger squads (and financial pull to further improve it) than a lot of mid table teams in Spain, Italy or Germany.

Obviously, yes.

Everton have more money (in any relevant meaning of that phrase) than any team in those leagues that aren't...top 3, actually.
 
Point is no top players really want to go there (yet), they still prefer farmers leagues’ top clubs… so you have all this financial power wasted on massively overpaid average or above-average players.
The point is not about top players suddenly no longer want to play for Real/Barca/PSG/Bayern. These clubs offer top salary in the industry. It is about quality talent (both players and head coach) outside of these top clubs in their league that get pull by the salary of the EPL clubs, such as Isak to Newcastle, Emery to Aston Villa, Tuchel may be waiting for the Spurs job.

"so you have all this financial power wasted on massively overpaid average or above-average players."
This will change eventually with better management at each club.

Maybe that's because you don't watch other leagues. When I look at Westham, there are players I don't know at all and players I'd want nowhere near my club with the exception of Bella-Kotchap maybe.
For oversea audience, no one (my own opinion obviously) wants to watch games other than the big teams or the traditional power house with the most followers, that's why in terms of marketing European Super League makes sense. There is zero point to watch Real Madrid, Barcelona or PSG against teams with players on only 1/10th of their salaries. I don't even bother with CL games unless the big clubs are playing against each other.

It's not even just the TV rights and revenues though, I reckon within about 10--15 years each of the top 7 clubs (big 6 plus newcastle) will have some form of sugar daddy owners.
Paris Saint-Germain president Nasser Al-Khelaifi is reportedly interested in investing in a Premier League club. Here you go.
 
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West Ham is an anomaly there and likely won't be in a relegation zone for too long, but Everton and Southampton are legitimately one of the worst teams in the league squad-wise. And I'd argue they have stronger squads (and financial pull to further improve it) than a lot of mid table teams in Spain, Italy or Germany.

Everton's squad consists primarily of British mediocrities. Their passport is 90% of their value.

Which is another issue with money, leagues aren't entirely open. A big chunk of players are domestic. "PL tax" and all that. Quite a lot of the PL's financial advantage is wasted on these kinds of fees that don't reflect actual player quality, and the teams that are legitimately 'lower level' (not just ones that might find themselves in the relegation zone once) tend to have majority domestic squads.
 
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Maybe that's because you don't watch other leagues. When I look at Westham, there are players I don't know at all and players I'd want nowhere near my club with the exception of Bella-Kotchap maybe. But the vast majority are players who I never saw play respectively don't remember probably just like you with midtable clubs in Spain, Germany or France. My impression is that this team would fight for relegation in the Bundesliga as well but let's be honest, I don't have time to watch Southampton so how would I know?

That is a fair point. West Ham have players that are very well known (England, Brazil and Italian internationals), but I think you meant Southampton since you brought up Bella-Kotchap and… yeah, I believe people who don’t follow EPL probably don’t rate someone like Walker-Peters or Lavia all that high.
 
Maybe that's because you don't watch other leagues. When I look at Westham, there are players I don't know at all and players I'd want nowhere near my club with the exception of Bella-Kotchap maybe. But the vast majority are players who I never saw play respectively don't remember probably just like you with midtable clubs in Spain, Germany or France. My impression is that this team would fight for relegation in the Bundesliga as well but let's be honest, I don't have time to watch Southampton so how would I know?

2nd tier PL teams are also no match for their peers in other top leagues despite revenue difference. They terribly underperform in Europa League.
When a PL team is involved in a EL final, it is always a tier-1 team like United, Liverpool or Chelsea and even these lose the finals half the time against 2nd tier teams like Sevilla, Villareal..
 
"so you have all this financial power wasted on massively overpaid average or above-average players."
This will change eventually with better management at each club.

We have to agree to disagree here: no winning player (and coaches as well) from farmers leagues will stay for longer than making a quick buck while not winning and therefore having his domestic reputation dented. Conte is the most recent example: he will be back in Italy very soon, eventually getting a job again and moving on, without giving a iota about the arguments made on topic like this.

That said and more in general, every cycle/bubble/empire has its trajectory and ultimately a demise, many times because of internal misalignments first, then from competitors finding a way to regain strength, willingly or unwillingly. We are just customers, at this stage, and at global level.
 
We have to agree to disagree here: no winning player (and coaches as well) from farmers leagues will stay for longer than making a quick buck while not winning and therefore having his domestic reputation dented. Conte is the most recent example: he will be back in Italy very soon, eventually getting a job again and moving on, without giving a iota about the arguments made on topic like this.
I never disrespect other leagues and will never use the word farmers leagues. I am not from england and speak as an oversea fans. I don't disagree with what you said here, for example players that joined Arsenal and Spurs may never win the domestic league, however this won't change the tide. With so many entertainment available nowadays, football as an entertainment people only have time for games with the highest quality. I for one never watch games like West Ham vs Everton, not even highlights. For la liga I will only watch Barca and Real play against each other and that's it.
 


So why didn't Newcastle spend hundreds of millions in this January market to secure the Top 4?

Maybe Saudi Arabia doesn't have a lot of money, right?
 
That is a fair point. West Ham have players that are very well known (England, Brazil and Italian internationals), but I think you meant Southampton since you brought up Bella-Kotchap and… yeah, I believe people who don’t follow EPL probably don’t rate someone like Walker-Peters or Lavia all that high.

Sorry, I indeed meant Southampton
 
West Ham is an anomaly there and likely won't be in a relegation zone for too long, but Everton and Southampton are legitimately one of the worst teams in the league squad-wise. And I'd argue they have stronger squads (and financial pull to further improve it) than a lot of mid table teams in Spain, Italy or Germany.

This logic has a noticeable flaw, and is that half of the squad of these lower table PL teams come from mid tables clubs from Bundesliga,La Liga and Ligue 1, they didn't appear from the air.
These players moves to PL because of money, cause those sides offer better wages, but their quality wouldn't be better if they go back to where they came from, they were there already and were in mid table clubs...not higher.
 
So why didn't Newcastle spend hundreds of millions in this January market to secure the Top 4?

Maybe Saudi Arabia doesn't have a lot of money, right?

Because they're being sensible, signing a bunch of mercenaries only joining for the money doesn't always go well, sometimes it's necessary like with city to break into the top 4, but Newcastle have done well. I'm certain if they get champions league football you'll see massive spending in the summer. City have shown what a joke FFP is, these oil countries have so many business connections, that they can easily find people who'll sponsor them and then pay it back under the table or in favours, there's too many ways to circumvent it
 
How do you think those 3 would do against:
Ajaccio, Auxerre and Angers
Cremonese, Sampdoria and Sassuolo
Schalke, Stuttgart and Bochum
Sevilla, Elche and Cadiz
?

Last season Eintracht Frankfurt (who finished 11th in Bundesliga) knocked out West Ham in the UEL (who finished 7th in EPL).

Aside from Liverpool,City,Chelsea,United and Arsenal, the rest of EPL is pretty much even with their counterparts in other leagues.

The transferkmart value of players is inflated and can be inaccurate, as EPL teams can pay higher fees than other leagues.
When mid table teams from La Liga,Ligue 1, and Bundesliga know that an english club is interested in one of their players, they ask for more money cause they know english teams can afford it.
 
I think the question can be rephrased. For example, we could ask: where would Cadiz be in the league table if they replaced their striker with Everton's Anthony Gordon? 10th? EL spots? How about Dominic Calvert-Lewin? Dream Copa del Rey run?
 
How do you think those 3 would do against:
Ajaccio, Auxerre and Angers
Cremonese, Sampdoria and Sassuolo
Schalke, Stuttgart and Bochum
Sevilla, Elche and Cadiz
?
Eeeh. Sassuolo is probably better than Everton or Southampton. Sevilla *should* be better too, but they're a bit like west ham, a really strong squad in crisis
 
Sevilla is the clearest example of how this exercise is misleading. Good clubs end up in relegation spots all the time, there is nothing unusual about that and it does not reflect the quality of the league.

The actual equivalent of Cadiz or Elche are Norwich or Bournemouth or other yo-yo clubs.
 
I think the question can be rephrased. For example, we could ask: where would Cadiz be in the league table if they replaced their striker with Everton's Anthony Gordon? 10th? EL spots? How about Dominic Calvert-Lewin? Dream Copa del Rey run?
….or more relevant: Would Everton be bottom of the table in LaLiga? Serie A? Bundesliga? or Ligue 1? Do you think Cadiz could avoid relegation in the EPL?
How would you rank those 15 clubs based on squads, financial muscles, fanbases and facilities?
 
….or more relevant: Would Everton be bottom of the table in LaLiga? Serie A? Bundesliga? or Ligue 1? Do you think Cadiz could avoid relegation in the EPL?
How would you rank those 15 clubs based on squads, financial muscles, fanbases and facilities?

If Everton was in Spain, Germany,Italy, and France....they would make less money, and the financial advantage is gone.

:D
 
….or more relevant: Would Everton be bottom of the table in LaLiga?
Sevilla are near the bottom of the table in La Liga. If you play poorly, there's no limit to what you can achieve.

You seem to be assuming that Everton are good, and are only in the bottom because other teams are even better. I don't know why you would assume that other than the fact they're a historic club. Neither the club nor the manager nor most of the individual players have achieved much of note in recent years or in their careers.
 
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How do you think those 3 would do against:
Ajaccio, Auxerre and Angers
Cremonese, Sampdoria and Sassuolo
Schalke, Stuttgart and Bochum
Sevilla, Elche and Cadiz
?

Bochum for example have won 4 points in 3 games against Dortmund and have beaten Bayern the once too, since getting promoted. Cadiz have beaten Atletico this year, got two draws against Barca last year and two more against Real. I know it's the usual MO of this thread, but maybe it's a bit nonsensical for you to judge some teams you have never even seen play once in your life?