That's a bit harsh on the voters imo. I've had plenty of occasions as a voter where both teams were fairly equal in terms of individual quality. If Team A looks like a certainty to work out tactically, and I can see the logic behind Team B's tactics but I'm still not certain whether it would work, I have to give the benefit of the doubt to Team A. I can't speak for other voters but even where I haven't posted comments or questions, I've always read the thread before voting. Sometimes if i really can't seperate the teams I just don't vote.
The Redcafe Champions League Draft
- Thread starter Theon
- Start date
That's a bit harsh on the voters imo. I've had plenty of occasions as a voter where both teams were fairly equal in terms of individual quality. If Team A looks like a certainty to work out tactically, and I can see the logic behind Team B's tactics but I'm still not certain whether it would work, I have to give the benefit of the doubt to Team A. I can't speak for other voters but even where I haven't posted comments or questions, I've always read the thread before voting. Sometimes if i really can't seperate the teams I just don't vote.
I also had Scholes though
It was still somewhat workable, I just felt I needed Davids more when I was facing Vieira-Mendieta and I had no indication on how highly people rated Simeone.
As you say, it goes in cycles, and width from fullbacks was a big thing in the CL era, resulting in some cracking fullbacks.
Looking at the different sides, I would not be surprised if this is finally the time when a diamond wins this.
As said, I think the teams are going to be so good it will boil down to whether we think it will work, and know is better than think.
Managers like Theon have a great platform to work off. NM does as well, in a nonsexy Mourinho 1-0 grinding way. Snow seems to have done the usual Brwned trick of picking layers from different sides when posting a themed XI (shame everyone hates John Terry and Chelsea). Akash has the basis for a Barca model that would appeal to oldies out here.
The choices made in the three-pick pool will be crucial.
Can't see a United-themed side emerge though.
You would not be considered a scan-voter then as you read the summary and threads.
Like I stated that was how it worked in the newbies. There were people like you who read the threads and possibly asked questions and there were people who looked at 2 pictures of formations and voted by that and left and never came back.
Not much to add I agree completely. Not sure I want to make my mind up about the teams yet though but so far I agree - but a huge part is about how the manager presents his team. So I can't really make my mind up of who to consider the favorites.
Nope! Me niether - although in a weird way that would be fitting because we should have done better in Europe.
I also had Scholes though
It was still somewhat workable, I just felt I needed Davids more when I was facing Vieira-Mendieta and I had no indication on how highly people rated Simeone.
Yeah can definitely see your thoughts, I love a strong midfield so would have been tempted to do the same - although in line with liking strong physical midfielders Simeone is the type of guy I'd be happy with, so would have gone Rivaldo.
You only need to look at this thread to see how highly Davids is rated. The 3rd pick for that type of player, and I'd possibly be tempted to put him 2nd behind Keano. The problem was that the extra votes garnered by Davids > Simeone wouldn't have been as high as the votes from Rivaldo > Forlan.
The strange thing about that thread was the Montero criticisms. Very bizzare, was a terrific CB partnership.
Part of it is no one goes for 4-4-2 any more. Not to reopen it, but if you didn't win the EPL one with the best 4-4-2 ever put together, featuring every single major recordholder in the EPL... Well, that's it for 4-4-2 in drafts.
I do find it intriguing no one tried our 2006-09 side. In fact, half the players haven't even been picked. Sure CL winners and all that, but it is almost as if people suddenly rated the 2000 Valencia side higher than our 2008 one.
Is it that we should have done better or have we had nonflashy overachieving sides?
so.. where are we in the draft? who is up
Oh I know scan-voters exist, don't get me wrong! There was an infamous one in the mains where a manager had a falling out with someone in a completely random thread and the guy followed him into the draft thread, voted against him to cost him the game then buggered off!
I just think the scan-voter thing is sometimes overstated by participants. For the most part when I look at the list of voters, they tend to be regular, serious football forum posters, most of whom have contributed to the draft threads at some time or other. There's not generally that many random names.
I do think there's an element of managers getting frustrated when people don't accept their tactical rationale without question. For me unless a manager has an absolute shocker I can generally see some logic to his arguments and could envisage it working. But if there's question marks in my mind and the other manager has what i view to be a rock solid argument then there can only be one winner. Its not really a question of one manager being right and another being wrong, its just that one has a slightly more compelling argument, be that through superior players, a solid set up, or isolating a weakness in the other team.
The thing is all United sides are seen as greater than the sum of their parts due to SAF.....
No, its just that they're a quality side that reached 2 Cl finals without winning, meaning Angloma, Ayala, Mendieta and co are perfect for this draft.
May be different in the mains this is the first one I see here so I have no clue. However in the Newbies it was a very high percentage. There are some good examples where one manager says something completely crazy in the description but wins because not enough people bothered to read it.
I am happy to look and learn how it works in the mains though but from talking to Brwned I was pretty sure it worked the same way here.
I rate Simeone very highly but had had no comments about him at all bar someone saying he was in a different bracket to the others. Davids instead had been constantly referred to as a monster capable of doing the work of two DMs.
I was inexperienced I guess. Simeone was more than good enough to cut off Simeone. feck it, Almeyda was. I did think Mendieta would tear me a new one though and didn't realise I rated him higher than 95% of voters.
Yep, the Montero stuff was ridiculous. "Favoritism". Bullshit, he was absolutely top drawer and with no red cards in a draft, a no-brainer.
I think it is because our strongest part was our defense and it is picked early on all the time. Choosing a team like Valencia/Chelsea Mourinho slips under the radar a bit more and you can complete your "section".
Terry/Carvalho/Gallas just lasts rounds more than Vidic/Ferdinand/Stam. I think the Neville-Rio-Vidic-Evra defense is one of the highest rated combinations you can get in these drafts but it is not worth getting as 1-4th picks and if you don't get Vidic/Ferdinand in 1 and 2nd you are just playing lottery to get them at all.
Sorry gents, I know you're waiting on me. I'll post my pick soon. I had chosen somebody and PM'd him to Anto but Anto is telling me that he's ineligible due to not enough appearances. Transfermarkt has him down as 17 Champions League appearances but World Football has him down as 21. Transfermarkt was deemed unreliable for Riquelme's statistics earlier in the draft so what's the story here?
World football include olden time European cup games down as Champions League games.
You'll also notice Stoichkov down for 30 odd Champions league games when he only played 19 and the rest were in the old European Cup.
You'll also notice Stoichkov down for 30 odd Champions league games when he only played 19 and the rest were in the old European Cup.
Yeah, I think that is what it is. I feel for our loyal servants who are good enough to bring big ears, but not to be considered in a draft by their own fans
They are, don't get me wrong, I was fully expecting that side to be taken apart. How many of our own2008 starters have been picked so far though? 5? You would just about manage an 11 out of those picked from two CL-winning United squads. Either we underrate our players or they are overachievers.
Can I pm my next pick to someone? Going to for dinner in a second, might as well not delay others..
Send it to me
There's a flaw in your argument, but I can't highlight it unfortunately. The player hasn't been picked.
Fair enough. No worries. I'll be back with a pick in a bit.
Just on the 20 Champions League games criteria: I think it has ruled out too many of the earlier Champions League-era players as the competition had less games in the tournament then and lots of teams/players didn't play as many games as teams do now. There has been plenty of quality players ruled out by this rule, but I suppose that's what makes it a challenge.
Exactly what Stob says. World football is completely reliable but it has him down as 17 as well, the same as transfermarket.
If you click on 'club matches' it has all his appearances and 4 CL appearances are listed as being in the 1992 season, which was before the competition changes to its current format.
The pool of players is absolutely huge.
But anyway, this is a Champions League draft, having a 10 appearance requirement defeats the whole purpose.
TBH the only purpose the CL constraint has served is ruling out those players or those which have come to the fore of late.
I don't think it has been too harsh a constraint as the pool is immense. It is only really the 4-nonCL which will kick in and matter throughout.
I don't think it has been too harsh a constraint as the pool is immense. It is only really the 4-nonCL which will kick in and matter throughout.
Aye, 20 game rule is good otherwise we'd have sides full of Dortmund players and the likes of our new boy Thiago
Exactly, midfields would look like our shopping list in the transfer forum and all the muppets would be voting for whoever had the most flavour of the month names.
Would much rather have them discover there was once a player called Mauro Silva, and he was rather good. He pretty much bossed every midfield on his way to winning a World Cup.
Would much rather have them discover there was once a player called Mauro Silva, and he was rather good. He pretty much bossed every midfield on his way to winning a World Cup.
No, Gundogan, Gundogan
While we're waiting on Nahealai, thoughts on the greatest team in the CL era? Barca of the last few years aside, who stands out?
Just thinking about that Milan 4-0 Barca final.
Just thinking about that Milan 4-0 Barca final.
Mid to late 90's Juventus were amazing.
Yeah they were annoyingly good being a Utd fan and never being able to beat the bastards!
Neville said in his autobiography that Juv team were the best he faced. Had everything, especially power
Neville said in his autobiography that Juv team were the best he faced. Had everything, especially power
That Milan team was brilliant. What's even more stunning about that 4-0 win is that they were decimated with injuries. No Baresi, Costacurta, Van Basten, Lentini, Papin etc. Whoever draws him might not thank me for saying this so I'll delete if necessary, but its a very strong argument that I expect Isotope will use that a midfield containing Boban and Albertini conjured a performance like that against top class opposition.
Check out this crazy commentator bastard I found when going through old United Vs. Juve videos.
And that pass by Veron ..... *** paaaaaaaaaaassss....voters take note.
Milan 93-95 made 3 consecutive finals and won 4-0 like you said in one, so did Juventus 96-98. Then you have the longevity of this Barca side with 6 consecutive semi finals.
But people don't give enough credit to this Bayern side, they did not just dominate Barcelona they ridiculed them in a record-fashion. 7-0 is the greatest defeat in a semi final in history and that is extremely impressive from Bayern as Barcelona were considered #1 before that.
But then, Cruyff seemed to be hellbent on making up for the absent Milan players by benching Laudrup.
Michael Laudrup... On the bench... Manic stuff.
They had a great season as convincing as this season was they need to maintain it to be considered a great team.
That's a good point about Bayern. If they can move on and achieve some more success over the next few seasons then they'll absolutely be right up there in the discussion. There might never be a more dramatic passing of the guard than the beating they put on Barca last season.
Its strange and sad with Laudrup that between this and Euro 92 what could have been his keynote moments in the game passed him by. That reminds me that I found the full match on youtube of Real pasting Barca 5-0 the season Laudrup joined them. Really must give that a thorough watch some of these days.
Sorry for the delay, gents. I thought I was okay with Tony Adams as he was down as making 21 Champions League appearances on World Football. It register with me at all that that included some pre-modern era games, too. Not to worry.
I choose Fernando Couto as my next pick. Extremely powerful defender who won a league title with Barcelona, a UEFA Cup with Parma and a Serie A/Coppa Italia double with Lazio. Couto is also revered by Porto fans and considered one of their best centre-backs of all-time, if not the best. He played a pivotal role in that famous Lazio team around the turn of the millenium, forging a wonderful partnership with Alessandro Nesta when paired together. He'll add some steel to the spine of my defence and will off-set the grace of Abidal very well. Another noteworthy captain to add to my XI with Couto captaining his country for many of his 106 caps.
I choose Fernando Couto as my next pick. Extremely powerful defender who won a league title with Barcelona, a UEFA Cup with Parma and a Serie A/Coppa Italia double with Lazio. Couto is also revered by Porto fans and considered one of their best centre-backs of all-time, if not the best. He played a pivotal role in that famous Lazio team around the turn of the millenium, forging a wonderful partnership with Alessandro Nesta when paired together. He'll add some steel to the spine of my defence and will off-set the grace of Abidal very well. Another noteworthy captain to add to my XI with Couto captaining his country for many of his 106 caps.