Do you think they need Guardiola Anto? Whats he doing that Petit and Baraja wouldn't do?
The Redcafe Champions League Draft
- Thread starter Theon
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Do you think they need Guardiola Anto? Whats he doing that Petit and Baraja wouldn't do?
I told akash when I first joined in here it was very difficult to reconcile Hagi, Romario and Guardiola. Guardiola requires a three man midfield with him pivoting, Hagi is no left winger and Romario can't be left all by himself through the middle. Someone like Sergi with Montero/Chiellini covering could have made that work.
With no Sergi or a discernible similar left wingback cum winger option it may be the case one of Guardiola or Hagi has to give and I hate to say it, but it may be Guardiola indeed, although I would have a fundamental philosophical issue with that as a manager. Can they even get a decent enough left winger to justify it though?
Sergi and then Baraja and it could have been avoided. It's classic Sergi though, everyone thinking he will last late and when he eventually gets picked everyone going "Oh feck, how do I get someone like him now".
Not just that, Lahm on the left would be the completely wrong leftback for akash's side
That's what I meant, I didn't want to sound that harsh
.I think he just flew under the radar. I certainly had completely forgotten about him. Awesome pick.
It has been long established that rushing for strikers is silly unless you get the very best because most only pick one.
Double-edged sword though. I did it in the 50s draft with Morena, banking on getting a top striker along the way, by the time I got t the final the best I had come across was Elkjaer, while Brwned had picked up Sanchez, Rummenigge and Blokhin (how I lost that game by one vote I will never know
).All-time one I went with Arsenio Erico, with Henry on the left who could move up if needed. The plan was to get Messi, Ronaldo or Romario but never came across any of them so had to play Pelé at No. 9.
Snow was playing the same game and now missed out on Owen, but I think their replacement will be very competent and of similar standard to all bar the top 3-4 strikers.
That's what I meant, I didn't want to sound that harsh
Yeah, I've seen your post later. Lahm and McManaman is bang on, why he would even consider switching him to the left is beyond me.
Gio looks a good alternative pick and people may actually know more about him than Sergi. I loved the chemistry between Guardiola and Sergi though, it was telepathic.
Remember to ask people to host their formations on tinypic or similar.
We had trouble before with links from football formations, sometimes the link would get cut off, or something else happened but you ended up with only one teamsheet for people to choose from
What you remember if anything is him cutting in. Both your wingers are wrong-footed and will be cutting in. I actually like the right-wing Mata, but I don't think Mijatovic was a good pick really.
Lahm was essentially a safety net. Worst comes to worst and there was no other left back available and a good right back available I would have employed Lahm at Left back but fortunately in Van Bronchorst I think we've got a very good LB who's very attack minded. Might not be Sergi to compliment Guardiola but just as good.
As for Guardiola and the midfield I think it works out nicely. Guardiola is the deep lying playmaker and pretty much the main man in the midfield. His creativity and defensive awareness will be vital in that position. Petit is the most defensive minded of the lot and along with Chiellini can compensate for Gio's runs down the left. Baraja will be most advanced of the trio. His passing and goal threat will come in handy.
As for Guardiola and the midfield I think it works out nicely. Guardiola is the deep lying playmaker and pretty much the main man in the midfield. His creativity and defensive awareness will be vital in that position. Petit is the most defensive minded of the lot and along with Chiellini can compensate for Gio's runs down the left. Baraja will be most advanced of the trio. His passing and goal threat will come in handy.
I would have thought Simeone was the first choice but his loss made him find that gem. Did anyone have him in their shortlist?
He's been a nightmare to go after. Has taken so many players off us. Seems to have planned this exactly the same way
I'll tell you what is worse than that, going after him, getting fecked throughout the draft, then when the draw is made you are playing against half the players you wanted yourself!
The beauty of it is Petit and Baraja are a credible partnership all by themselves. Add Guardiola and you have a superpowered midfield. I don't think anyone was ever as good as Pep at playing through balls and doubt anyone ever will be. Get the right movement and running upfront and you have a beast of a side. If only it were Stoichkov instead of Hagi... but you never know what you may be able to pick up later.
Nope completely forgot about him. I had Simeone in the original shortlist, but that was scrapped after getting Pirlo and going for the Italian midfield. Silva and Simeone are both great ballwinners and he really needed one to round off that side.
I forgot all about him.. Simeone I had.. Silva.. feck. I knew I should have looked more into the Depor side. I like the Gilberto - Vieira combination, but Mauro.. forgot about him.
Bollocks, are you people waiting for nahealai? I've just realised I have a PM from him.
Did Nahealai pm anyone his picks?
Yes, me, wait I'll get a pic
He must have been fuming when we compared Snows backline and Graham's
He must have been fuming when we compared Snows backline and Graham's
nahealai picks
I will sign every contract Arsenal put in front of me without reading it. - Tony Adams
The Game: 1. Zidane 2. Seedorf 3. Shevchenko 4. Frank De Boer 5. Pires 6. Cocu 7. Ze Roberto 8. Lopez 9. Simic
JakeC: 1. Messi 2. Cantona 3. Buffon 4. Roberto Carlos 5. Xabi Alonso 6. Puyol 7. Mascherano 8. Sagnol 9. Ljungberg
kps88: 1. Cristiano Ronaldo 2. Kohler 3. Davids 4. Vieri 5. Riquelme 6. Costacurta 7. Cambiasso 8. Salgado 9. Gonzalez
Thisistheone: 1. Ronaldo 2. Desailly 3. Rui Costa 4. Blanc 5. Essien 6. Dani Alves 7. Rooney 8. Paulo Sousa 9. Grosso
Ralaks: 1. Keane 2. Del Piero 3. Effenberg 4. Beckham 5. Overmars 6. Ramos 7. Trezeguet 8. Piqué 9. Rafael
nahealai: 1. Xavi 2. Raúl 3. van Nistelrooy 4. Ballack 5. Busquets 6. Lizarazu 7. Irwin 8. Abidal 9. Kahn 10. Adams
Stobzilla: 1. Henry 2. Stam 3. Totti 4. Gerrard 5. Veron 6. Mata 7. G. Neville 8. Mijatovic 9. Mihajlovic 10. Hyypia
Feeky: 1. Maldini 2. Scholes 3. Bergkamp 4. Deschamps 5. Ibrahimovic 6. Y. Touré 7. David Silva 8. Lúcio 9. Marcelo 10. Casillas
akash02: 1. Romario 2. Cannavaro 3. Hagi 4. Guardiola 5. Lahm 6. McManaman 7. Petit 8. Chiellini 9. Baraja 10. Van Bronckhorst
Gio: 1. Rivaldo 2. Nedved 3. Ferdinand 4. Zanetti 5. Fabregas 6. Zambrotta 7. Montero 8. Joaquin 9. Owen 10. Mauro Silva
Snow: 1. Ronaldinho 2. Kaka 3. Mendieta 4. Terry 5. Carvalho 6. A. Cole 7. Ozil 8. Gallas 9. Cech 10. Albelda
Isotope: 1. Redondo 2. Ribery 3. Eto'o 4. Albertini 5. Campbell 6. Boban 7. Forlan 8. Angloma 9. Kompany 10. Coentrao
EDogen: 1. Nesta 2. Giggs 3. Hierro 4. Van Persie 5. Enrique 6. Robben 7.Evra 8. Ferrara 9. Deco 10. Simeone
Theon: 1. Iniesta 2. Pirlo 3. Cafu 4. Gattuso 5. De Rossi 6. Crespo 7. Aguero 8. Silva 9. Candela 10. Nadal
Fergus'son: 1. Batistuta 2. Thuram 3. Ayala 4. Makelele 5. Schweinsteiger 6. Moller. 7. Villa 8. Muller 9. Aimar 10. Samuel
BD/NM: 1. Vieira 2. Figo 3. Vidic 4. Drogba 5.Lampard 6. Popescu 7. Maicon 8. Gilberto 9. Giulyu 10. Sergi
I will sign every contract Arsenal put in front of me without reading it. - Tony Adams
The Game: 1. Zidane 2. Seedorf 3. Shevchenko 4. Frank De Boer 5. Pires 6. Cocu 7. Ze Roberto 8. Lopez 9. Simic
JakeC: 1. Messi 2. Cantona 3. Buffon 4. Roberto Carlos 5. Xabi Alonso 6. Puyol 7. Mascherano 8. Sagnol 9. Ljungberg
kps88: 1. Cristiano Ronaldo 2. Kohler 3. Davids 4. Vieri 5. Riquelme 6. Costacurta 7. Cambiasso 8. Salgado 9. Gonzalez
Thisistheone: 1. Ronaldo 2. Desailly 3. Rui Costa 4. Blanc 5. Essien 6. Dani Alves 7. Rooney 8. Paulo Sousa 9. Grosso
Ralaks: 1. Keane 2. Del Piero 3. Effenberg 4. Beckham 5. Overmars 6. Ramos 7. Trezeguet 8. Piqué 9. Rafael
nahealai: 1. Xavi 2. Raúl 3. van Nistelrooy 4. Ballack 5. Busquets 6. Lizarazu 7. Irwin 8. Abidal 9. Kahn 10. Adams
Stobzilla: 1. Henry 2. Stam 3. Totti 4. Gerrard 5. Veron 6. Mata 7. G. Neville 8. Mijatovic 9. Mihajlovic 10. Hyypia
Feeky: 1. Maldini 2. Scholes 3. Bergkamp 4. Deschamps 5. Ibrahimovic 6. Y. Touré 7. David Silva 8. Lúcio 9. Marcelo 10. Casillas
akash02: 1. Romario 2. Cannavaro 3. Hagi 4. Guardiola 5. Lahm 6. McManaman 7. Petit 8. Chiellini 9. Baraja 10. Van Bronckhorst
Gio: 1. Rivaldo 2. Nedved 3. Ferdinand 4. Zanetti 5. Fabregas 6. Zambrotta 7. Montero 8. Joaquin 9. Owen 10. Mauro Silva
Snow: 1. Ronaldinho 2. Kaka 3. Mendieta 4. Terry 5. Carvalho 6. A. Cole 7. Ozil 8. Gallas 9. Cech 10. Albelda
Isotope: 1. Redondo 2. Ribery 3. Eto'o 4. Albertini 5. Campbell 6. Boban 7. Forlan 8. Angloma 9. Kompany 10. Coentrao
EDogen: 1. Nesta 2. Giggs 3. Hierro 4. Van Persie 5. Enrique 6. Robben 7.Evra 8. Ferrara 9. Deco 10. Simeone
Theon: 1. Iniesta 2. Pirlo 3. Cafu 4. Gattuso 5. De Rossi 6. Crespo 7. Aguero 8. Silva 9. Candela 10. Nadal
Fergus'son: 1. Batistuta 2. Thuram 3. Ayala 4. Makelele 5. Schweinsteiger 6. Moller. 7. Villa 8. Muller 9. Aimar 10. Samuel
BD/NM: 1. Vieira 2. Figo 3. Vidic 4. Drogba 5.Lampard 6. Popescu 7. Maicon 8. Gilberto 9. Giulyu 10. Sergi
Not played enough Champions League games, he would have gone well before now if he had.
Bet he doesn't have a second choice either?
Oh well, he said he'd be back by four anyway....
Oh well, he said he'd be back by four anyway....
Yep, only 18 games if I remember correctly, although did play some qualifiers I think, but they don't count, otherwise I would of had Stoichkov by now.
Can we relax the rule so we can see Stobzilla get Stoichkov? Just for kicks.
Did I hear someone suggest a 3-6-1 ?
I think he just flew under the radar. I certainly had completely forgotten about him. Awesome pick.
It has been long established that rushing for strikers is silly unless you get the very best because most only pick one.
Double-edged sword though. I did it in the 50s draft with Morena, banking on getting a top striker along the way, by the time I got t the final the best I had come across was Elkjaer, while Brwned had picked up Sanchez, Rummenigge and Blokhin (how I lost that game by one vote I will never know
All-time one I went with Arsenio Erico, with Henry on the left who could move up if needed. The plan was to get Messi, Ronaldo or Romario but never came across any of them so had to play Pelé at No. 9.
Snow was playing the same game and now missed out on Owen, but I think their replacement will be very competent and of similar standard to all bar the top 3-4 strikers.
My exact view of it. Whether you have Raul, Del Piero who were picked in the second round or Michael Owen who was picked in the 12th will not matter very much like you say.
Also if you choose to go for Raul/Del Piero and you end up beating whoever has Romario then you are pretty screwed. I ended up playing 3 teams in a row who all just had gone for strikers which left me with no good picks. I ended up with Ronaldo, Van Basten and Müller and I had let Eusebio go. Needless to say I was completely dominated by someone who had been more lucky in his win-picks.
Since then I never go for strikers as the chance of you meeting a great one within 2 matches is huge so they are always easy to pick up. Gk's are also absolutely worthless from my experience, usually the winner has the crappiest goalkeeper of the bunch and nobody cares when voting.
Nahh disagree with that, of course a good striker matters. Raul would win more votes than Owen, and rightfully so.
The upgrades point is definitely valid though.
Just my experience of things when I've played. Unless you get Ronaldo/Messi quality there is not much between a ballon d'or Owen and a Raul with his longevity.
Now I don't particularly like Owen as I highly rate flexibility in these drafts as that means you can adjust to the players you get from winning. I think how many positions a player can play well is very underestimated by many and they get called-out on it the next rounds.
That is why I would probably want Messi/Ronaldo before someone like Rivaldo who is going to be your AM from start til' finish. If you get Rivaldo and beat a team which has Zidane in the next round you pretty much lost because you can't play the two together without going for an odd tactic.
A lot of scan-voters often justify their pick by finding the easiest reason to why a team would not work rather than trying to find out why it would. If they were interesting in why it would work they would read descriptions at the very least or also post questions/comments.
That's why the format has gradually changed to make it a pool after the first elimination round and picking from the rival thereafter. The pool allows for everyone to address shortcomings, be it strikers, midfielders or defenders.
I disagree about goalkeepers. In the 70s final the one thing that constantly played against me was Cling Bak had XXX and I had YYYYYYY. My defence was far superior, primarily down to fullbacks, but when you went to the final core three XXX was irresistible. One being a top United keeper and the other being notorious for a handful of high profile feckups didn't help at all.
As far as I can see the pool is so deep there will be a good bunch of flawless top sides from the outset, and they will only get better.
I think familiarity/proven partnerships and goalkeepers may wind up being what tips the balance as far as analytical voters are concerned. Then there are random popularity votes which vary in their importance/weight.
Whoever has popular proven partnerships will win this.
Yeah I agree with the rest of the post, but not the striker bit again.
Saying "Raul with his longevity" implies that this is what he has over Owen, especially when you mention Owen's Ballon D'Or. In reality though Raul was the better striker in every respect IMO.
I lost a final for NOT picking up Rivaldo when I already had Zidane, go figure.
It's a strange point as well as he stresses the value of versatility/adaptability to different setups, which is one of the main advantages Raúl has over Owen.
Yup, as much as I love Gio's team (I've said how great it is numerous times, probably the one to beat) Owen is one of the weaker players for me.
But this isn't surprising, Raul was picked in round 2 and Owen was picked in round 9, there will obviously be a difference in quality. He is still a great player, but Raul will rightfully win more votes.
I think Nahealai would be pissed if he didn't!
But this isn't surprising, Raul was picked in round 2 and Owen was picked in round 9, there will obviously be a difference in quality. He is still a great player, but Raul will rightfully win more votes.
I think Nahealai would be pissed if he didn't!
I should have kept that non-CL list up to date, it makes it more interesting to think about next possible picks from everyone.
What's the problem if everyone gets to see it anyway? Gio could yet get himself a very handy alternative to Owen.
Christ, so many awesome players still out there, this is ridiculous. We won't be able to separate teams in the first knockout, let alone semis and final!
What's the problem if everyone gets to see it anyway? Gio could yet get himself a very handy alternative to Owen.
Christ, so many awesome players still out there, this is ridiculous. We won't be able to separate teams in the first knockout, let alone semis and final!
Haha, that is brilliant and interesting to see you have different experiences of it. I have seen a team consisting of Lev Yashin lose to one consisting of Neville Southall.
Also I think Raul is a better pick(due to flexibility) and a player than Michael Owen but in terms of the picks being one of the first and one of the last there isn't enough disparity to justify it. Michael Owen has won Ballon d'Or so he was certainly great for a while and possibly had a higher top than Raul ever had.
If you compare say Scholes who was a 2nd pick as well to the last picks then the difference is a lot bigger. Like said earlier people pick 3 central midfielders in general and it has not been common with 3 central midfielders for that long, previously there were more often 2 of them. That means there is a high need and less demand of great central midfielders than there is for strikers which has the exact opposite "history".
Such a pair would be workable though. For example, Rivaldo and Ronaldinho excelled together at the 2002 World Cup, while Zidane's often played off the inside-left position for France and Real, and similarly Rivaldo's done well out left for Brazil, Barca and Depor. On the whole managers have to strike a balance between future-proofing their side and making it strong enough to compete in the first place.
No no no no noo!
There are truckloads of central midfielders, in the world, in this draft, anywhere but Carrington
I see no problem with it either, Rivaldo would be an inside left for me with Zidane slightly deeper and central. It would be amazing
What works in reality is pretty irrelevant as you need to combine something that works in reality and also looks appealing to the scan-voters. I haven't participated in any drafts in the mains but in the newbies it was 50-50 between scan-voters and people who read the summaries. Amount of people who held their votes and posted questions were ridiculous low 1/8.
The "Rivaldo/Zidane" is based around people preferring what is currently the most popular formations. Rivaldo was not keen on being moved out so for them to work it would be in a 2 CAM formation.
People vote for formations they know work and people have short memories. A lot of people say 3 at the back "doesnt work" a lot of people say 4-4-2 doesn't work etc but it goes in circles.
If you play a 3-3-3-1 you will lose votes even if it is a formation proven to work at the highest level. The same way you will lose votes if you use the M or the W or what not which is older formations.
The "Rivaldo/Zidane" is based around people preferring what is currently the most popular formations. Rivaldo was not keen on being moved out so for them to work it would be in a 2 CAM formation.
People vote for formations they know work and people have short memories. A lot of people say 3 at the back "doesnt work" a lot of people say 4-4-2 doesn't work etc but it goes in circles.
If you play a 3-3-3-1 you will lose votes even if it is a formation proven to work at the highest level. The same way you will lose votes if you use the M or the W or what not which is older formations.
now we see why....