I think the fights with Usyk, as bad as they were for AJ results wise, has improved his body work a lot. Everyone's on about the 1-2, but I think it's those body shots that did the damage
The RedCafe Boxing Thread
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Sadly neither it would be nice to see Zhang next for AJ, but they'll go for the money fight in Ngannou.
Except they didn't.
Aj should fight any of Dubois, Joyce, Zhang, Hrgovic next imo and then aim for the winner of Fury-Usyk.
That's if he actually still wants to be the best, Wilder/Ngannou right now will just be a quick payday.
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What’s the top level in your opinion? We’ve just seen Wilder lose to someone AJ dominated previously, Fury looked like shit against an MMA fighter and Usyk almost lost against Dubois. If that’s the top level, AJ isn’t done at all.
They'll keep him a mile away from him.
Yeah, which is a shame. Zhang will end his career fighting midcarders because Fury/Usyk/AJ won’t go near him.
Only if it makes financial sense will they risk that fight, but Zhang isn't a big enough name or draw for that, so it's all the risk for nothing.
Zhang needs big backers to really get his hat thrown in that mix.
Not a fan of the heavyweights by any chance but it was a good event of cards. Seems AJ and Ben Davidson is an ideal match up, Ben is usually with technically sound fighters so the fact AJ was more aggressive is definitely a testament to good instructions in the corner imo.
Wilders loss to Fury has seemingly disrupted his progression and identity as a fighter. Whenever a fighter has a certain reputation and it ends up diminished, reintroducing themselves can be difficult. I don't think Deontay has enough in his arsenal to be as dynamic as AJ in facing adversity so maybe he hangs it up, has done well for himself.
If Fury overcomes Usyk it sets up probably the biggest grossing fight in British boxing history. You'd have two guys on the up and it could be undisputed but two things ruin this potential situation. Firstly the rematch clause in the Usyk bout and secondly the high potential for one of Usyks belts to be stripped similar to how Crawford was after fighting Spence because of the time in-between a rematch.
Feels like it's approaching the end of this heavyweight era (next three years).
Wilders loss to Fury has seemingly disrupted his progression and identity as a fighter. Whenever a fighter has a certain reputation and it ends up diminished, reintroducing themselves can be difficult. I don't think Deontay has enough in his arsenal to be as dynamic as AJ in facing adversity so maybe he hangs it up, has done well for himself.
If Fury overcomes Usyk it sets up probably the biggest grossing fight in British boxing history. You'd have two guys on the up and it could be undisputed but two things ruin this potential situation. Firstly the rematch clause in the Usyk bout and secondly the high potential for one of Usyks belts to be stripped similar to how Crawford was after fighting Spence because of the time in-between a rematch.
Feels like it's approaching the end of this heavyweight era (next three years).
I've seen a lot of people saying that AJ gets smoked by Zhang but I think it's an altogher much tougher fight for Zhang.
True, Zhang beat Joyce, but Joyce has always been a hype job, and he was defensively all over the shop and just went toe to toe with a stronger and more technically-correct boxer in Zhang. Joshua is not nearly so limited an opponent.
Joshua would look to tire Zhang rounds 1-8 and then finish him late on. Joshua has genuine power to hurt boxers.
The reason why the fight probably won't happen is on the grounds of reward. Zhang wiped the floor with a limited boxer in Joyce: what credit would AJ get from beating him? It's better for Zhang to take another bout against someone like Dillian Whyte and build up his own profile.
Joshua's lustre has dimmed somewhat but he came up against a generational talent in Usyk and did quite well. He's still a top heavyweight.
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Only because the scoring is fixed. They were both dogshit. Frankly it looks a weak division right now, all the best ones are looking a bit over the hill so if AJ could get back to his best then why shouldn't he be the champ?
Well Dubois lost every single round and then quit to a jab in the 8th iirc so I really don't know what you saw in that one. You must be one of the very few people on earth that think Dubois won that fight. You must be talking about that low blow/knockdown debate in which it was clearly a low blow.
The Fury one was just a shit fight, it was closer than the Dubois one but Fury still won.
And on your point of if Aj is back to his best then why shouldn't he be the champ. I guess that would depend on who wins out of Fury and Usyk, if Usyk wins I really don't want to watch a 3rd fight of Aj getting outboxed for 12 rounds and I assume the majority of the boxing world would feel the same way. Unless he beats Zhang/Hrgovic. Also by beating Zhang/Hrgovic he'll actually prove he's the best of the rest and would be deserving of a rematch.
Remember this guy:
Zhang is too much risk for little reward and is a dangerous opponent. I don't know if AJ gets smoked by Zhang, but there are many constants in Joshua's career and fighting style that make that a fight to avoid unless necessary than there are that say he could take the guy to the cleaners and continue along whatever path he's establishing for himself.
Your points one by one:
- Joshua does not move his head well. He might not be Joyce levels of stiff and stupid (to block punches with his face), but he struggles a lot with getting his head off centre line, which is really bad against fighters who are game and throw good hooks in particular, especially with how Zhang mixes in his left straight either in combinations to initialise or to finish - Joshua is primed to get hit by something in those barrages with his lack of natural movement.
- Zhang has more stamina than Joshua. I think you're suggesting Joshua would wear him down with shots and tire him out that way as opposed to Joshua simply having the bigger tank? Zhang is no slouch in exchanges; Joshua does not do well with getting hit - exchanges are much worse for Joshua than Zhang.
- You've mentioned Joshua's power, but not Zhang's. Zhang hits hard, he hits in bunches and he is more than game to stay in the pocket and bang. In an all out war of that kind, I'd back Zhang because Joshua's punch resistance isn't good (to say the least) and nor is his movement. Pot shotting heavy, cautiously and long is an obvious route to victory for Joshua, not trying to mix it up with a better brawler with a superior tank and punch resistance.
- Zhang is extremely game, so much so, he's exactly the kind of fighter all of those at the top of the division should actively avoid if they are being risk averse. He would go to war with anyone in the division and I don't think he comes up short in a fire fight against anyone - the avenue to beating him is staying safe and outboxing him, which is what would be expected of Fury and Usyk. Joshua? Not so much, as he has much worse head movement, concentration and manoeuvrability than those two.
I'm not saying Zhang beats Joshua, but I would say it's a fight Joshua should avoid because it is wrought with danger for him and he gives Zhang more opportunities to capitalise than Usyk or Fury would. Joshua has nothing to prove vs the likes of Zhang and is well beyond the stage of having to show what he's about. His redemption arc is about looking like his old self before the fella at the top of this post destroyed his confidence, and then pursuing a few mega fights to maximise his earnings and legacy before calling it a day. Zhang can't really do anything to interfere with that path or to interject as there's so few at the top of food chain to chase, and between those top 3, there's tie ups throughout the next 18 months with rematch clauses and whatnot. Joshua probably needs another statement victory like tonight's before he can really start to call out Fury (assuming he wins vs Usyk), which most likely does not involve a risky entanglement with a fighter like Zhang. I'd bet the Saudi's would pay for N'Gannou vs Joshua well before they'd entertain Zhang, too.
If AJ fights Zhang we will see scared AJ once again and he will get bashed up.
They did a very good job making people believe Wallin is a good fighter. It wasn’t long ago everybody was calling him a nobody and a bum when he fought Fury 
He is shit.....but suddenly AJ is flavour of the month again and his price goes up for an all English fight with Fury....such a corrupt sport!They did a very good job making people believe Wallin is a good fighter. It wasn’t long ago everybody was calling him a nobody and a bum when he fought Fury
Well, I'm not surprised in the least in the Wilder fight. He was always going to be out boxed by Parker. It was just a question of if he could land the bomb. The fight showed what I've said for ages, AJ always had a good chance against him. Mainly because AJ can box! He's taller than Parker and could keep Wilder at range. That's why I was bemused when people would say AJ had no chance. Wilder is so so limited. I've seen him out boxed a number of times...but! he has all time great punch that could knock out a elephant.
AJ looked good and sharp. If I'm his team I do everything I can to set up a money fight with Ngannou. Win that and then I would pray to every boxing god that Fury beats Usyk. Then you have, by far, the biggest fight in UK history ready to be made.
Fury-Usyk is a 50/50 fight, though and if Usyk does win I don't see a third match happening between him and AJ.
AJ looked good and sharp. If I'm his team I do everything I can to set up a money fight with Ngannou. Win that and then I would pray to every boxing god that Fury beats Usyk. Then you have, by far, the biggest fight in UK history ready to be made.
Fury-Usyk is a 50/50 fight, though and if Usyk does win I don't see a third match happening between him and AJ.
Away lads, Wilder has done what he wanted.
Performed poorly so Joshua thinks he has a shot, Joshua will agree to fight him now then Wilder will KO Joshua for a nice big payday. Big brains from Wilder.
Performed poorly so Joshua thinks he has a shot, Joshua will agree to fight him now then Wilder will KO Joshua for a nice big payday. Big brains from Wilder.
I think people (me included) thought that Aj would lose to old Wilder, that was probably Wilders worst performance to date. I mean, everyone knows how limited a fighter Wilder is but he was always good at making it a shootout and taking risks. Last night, he fought the last 30 seconds the way he usually fights and it was the only time Parker looked slightly uncomfortable.
Yeah, the ‘real’ Wilder turns every contest into a battle of heart, chin and power and backs himself every time with every bomb he throws and eventually catches his opponent that one time that puts them to sleep, but he looks like he’s lost his edge and appetite for that and is going through the motions now until he hangs them up. This isn’t the Wilder that most had no choice but to fear. He’s 38 now and looked every bit of it last night.
Prior to fighting Fury, yes. Not sure anyone thought that after the fight.They did a very good job making people believe Wallin is a good fighter. It wasn’t long ago everybody was calling him a nobody and a bum when he fought Fury
Agreed, his post fight interview was very telling. Wouldn't be surprised if he retires or takes 1 last big money fight (Ngannou ?)
I accept that Zhang is a credible and dangerous opponent not to be just casually dismissed, but I don't see the argument of Joshua running from Zhang. There is just nothing on the line in that fight - no belts, no big money, no prestige.
Had Zhang got a decision vs Hrgovic I still think Hearn would be talking up a fight for the IBF belt between AJ and Zhang.
The three time thing is big deal for Joshua and as you mentioned, it's part of his arc having lost to Usyk. Whether he faces Hrgovic or Zhang, it's a risky fight.
It's understandable that AJ lost his way between the Usyk and Franklin fights but the KO against Helenius flicked a switch in him and that continued into the Wallin fight. He's got the hunger back now. Unlike Helenius, I felt Wallin was a decent test, but it didn't turn out like that.
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Read on BBC Sport that Frank Warren and Eddie Hearn had never even met in real life, until November this year during the build up for the Saudi card. Shows how much of boxing is working in individual silos, trying to carve out your own profits.
Yes Zhang is now in the *who needs him" category. No worthwhile title and not enough money to be gained while carrying considerable risk.
Hrgovic and the IBF title will be on the RADAR I think.
Regarding Wilder, what are his best victories during his career, Stiverne I to win the WBC belt in 2015 and Ortiz I in 2018? Stiverne wasn’t exactly the most disciplined fighter around, didn’t exactly set the world alight in his previous fights leading up to their 2015 bout, and was 36 at the time. Ortiz while very talented, doesn’t have a particularly impressive set of victories on his career record either, was a few weeks away from his 39th birthday at the time of their 2018 bout, and caused Wilder quite a lot of problems.
Clearly his punching power from his right hand has been insane, but what an incredibly padded out record, especially from someone who held a world title belt for so long.
Clearly his punching power from his right hand has been insane, but what an incredibly padded out record, especially from someone who held a world title belt for so long.
Probably these 2 yeah, and Ortiz 2 I guess as another name on paper, although he was losing every round up until the KO. His resume as a champion is absolutely shocking - AJ had to beat Wlad and Parker for belts and defend against Ruiz, Povetkin, Pulev; any of those would easily be Wilder's best win (even though the latter 2 were past their best) and the majority probably would have beaten him. Crazy how far he's got with just power.
I don't think history will look back kindly at the Fury trilogy either, everyone knows the 1st was a robbery, got the piss beaten out of him in the 2nd and then other than 1 round of the fight he got dominated and KO'd cold in the 3rd.
Honestly one of the most one-sided trilogies in history when you look at it, 28 rounds completed between them and he probably won 4 of those at best, and 3 were just because of knockdowns.
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Agreed. I know he was due to fight Povetkin in 2016, before that was cancelled due to Povetkin's positive drugs test, but even had they fought and he won that, his record still wouldn't look particularly impressive.
How many opponents that Wilder beat were even better than someone like Takam (who Joshua beat in 2017)? I'd say a pretty small number. Elsewhere I've seen some Wilder fans deriding Joshua's win over a 41 year old Wlad, who was clearly still a better opponent than anyone that he beat (I'd definitely take a 41 year old Wlad over a 38-40 year old Ortiz).
I really think the criticism of AJ's resume is over the top at times. Wlad, Povektin, Ruiz, Parker, Pulev as title defences / unifications are all probably in the 6.5 - 7.5 / 10 range. Only Ortiz fits that criteria for Wilder, and A) at the lower end and B) he struggled in both fights.
Takam is probably the only one that falls short during that period for AJ and he was a replacement for Pulev on 2 weeks notice, and as you mentioned would STILL be Wilder's best win outside Ortiz probably (maybe Stiverne 1).
The rest of his title defences are trash on par with AJ's first couple against Molina & Breazeale (ironically both of whom are common opponents).
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Anyone see the Teddy Atlas interview with Lex Fridman? Fascinating interview talking about his days with Cus and Tyson. Cant help but respect the guy.
If you haven’t read it, his autobiography is very good.
Aside from the Tysons stuff, there’s some other good stories in there too.
Will do. Thanks for the suggestion
Should be interesting. If Joshua smokes him in a couple of rounds it will make Tyson Fury look like a right muppet, and will get people talking about AJ v Fury.
Correct. And my early prediction is Joshua runs through him in less than 3 rounds. Full credit to Francis, but Fury is Fury and full of up and down performances. AJ will take this fight seriously after what Francies did in the Fury fight.
intriguing fight now that Wilder is out of the picture. Zhang was being talked up a couple of days ago. Didn’t realise Joshua beat him at the Olympics in 2012.
amazing how it’s turned out for Francis
He's proved Dana wrong.
Crap fight.
Why? Maybe it’s just the mma fans but I’m also one curious to see how Francis does
Hearn in using Joshua as a cash cow shock.