I'm not overly criticizing him, dude went with what was thrown at him, and it's not like he was Roman-bad in the ring either, while he could also clearly promo. But I am criticizing the over push of him as an ultra babyface, and as proven by the past, I dunno, 10-15 years since that, it's been proven that that in fact was not was needed to attract and also, more importantly, retain viewers at all.
Television The Professional Grappling Thread
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I'm not overly criticizing him, dude went with what was thrown at him, and it's not like he was Roman-bad in the ring either, while he could also clearly promo. But I am criticizing the over push of him as an ultra babyface, and as proven by the past, I dunno, 10-15 years since that, it's been proven that that in fact was not was needed to attract and also, more importantly, retain viewers at all.
Wouldv made a lot more sense had drew been the one tossing punk out rather than LP
I mean the world titles were never workrate titles. That's what the intercontinental and to an extent the US is/was for. Great example last year's mania night 2 main event was a classic, but not because of the wrestling work rate. Mankind winning the title is a massive moment, not because he put on a wrestling clinic before hand. Wrestling is a soap opera and it's a fantastic story, that's it. He's Jeff Hardy 2008 over right now with the crowd so he's getting the push.
If you want to see wrestlers put on good matches and nothing else, AEW is probably perfect for you, WWE is not.
It's different when you're a Hollywood actor though isn't it? Your schedule never really aligns, and if you get injured and can't work, you actually risk putting a lot of people out of a job. So I can easily see John Cena retiring fully, in ring. And also, his attire at his age is a little tragic.
Anywho, I hope Cena becomes a ruthless tweener (not quite heel, don't think they'd go that far) and faces Cody at mania. I hope at mania we get a double turn.
Thought the Bloodline hunter gimmick was a great idea to lead to something, but yeah maybe theyve overbooked themselves having all these top guys intertwined
Yeah I'm sure the company have analysts on who's hot over an extended period for merch and ticket sales and he's up there. He gets bums on seats, even if I have no idea how. I never liked the yeet thing. Don't even know what it means because it's used in so many different contexts
We'll see I guess. But given that I can't think of anyone off the top of my head, outside of serious health reasons* aside, sticking to their retirement in combat sports... the jurys out for me. But.... good lord, do I agree with that attire, last night was utterly horrific, dude came out looking like somewhat had to pick out clothes from the lost and found for a P.E/Gym class. What the hell, no colour co-ordination or anything... and that sock/trainer combo... good lord.
*=or ducking. I'm looking at you Lennox Lewis.
Couple points that I don't think beens discussed.
Bliss had one of the loudest pops I've ever heard, has there ever been louder for a woman? Think it beats Becky at summerslam, so unless Im missing one really obvious one?
Also, pentas feet touched the floor
Bliss had one of the loudest pops I've ever heard, has there ever been louder for a woman? Think it beats Becky at summerslam, so unless Im missing one really obvious one?
Also, pentas feet touched the floor
Think Batista is another who'll stay retired for similar reasons, but also he's taking acting really seriously. He's lost all his muscle mass in the hope it gets him different sort of roles.We'll see I guess. But given that I can't think of anyone off the top of my head, outside of serious health reasons* aside, sticking to their retirement in combat sports... the jurys out for me. But.... good lord, do I agree with that attire, last night was utterly horrific, dude came out looking like somewhat had to pick out clothes from the lost and found for a P.E/Gym class. What the hell, no colour co-ordination or anything... and that sock/trainer combo... good lord.
*=or ducking. I'm looking at you Lennox Lewis.
I clocked it last year, the hair, the bald spot. It's all very down with the kids, and he's probably very conscious and aware of the fact he looks ridiculous
Couple points that I don't think beens discussed.
Bliss had one of the loudest pops I've ever heard, has there ever been louder for a woman? Think it beats Becky at summerslam, so unless Im missing one really obvious one?
Also, pentas feet touched the floor
Yeah that pop was great. Camera fecked up by panning away when she was showing off the jacket.
The lack of replay for Penta's botch was the dead giveaway
I like Penta a lot so hopefully this doesn't hurt himIt’s one thing AEW do a lot is assume you know everything about a guy they’ve brought in, I knew nothing of Penta but they’ve showcased him as a star so far
Feel like everyone collectively has agreed to ignore that like it never happenedYeah that pop was great. Camera fecked up by panning away when she was showing off the jacket.
The lack of replay for Penta's botch was the dead giveaway
It was a pretty incredible popCouple points that I don't think beens discussed.
Bliss had one of the loudest pops I've ever heard, has there ever been louder for a woman? Think it beats Becky at summerslam, so unless Im missing one really obvious one?
Also, pentas feet touched the floor
You cannot agree with it but a lot of it is just stating facts. Not being harsh when I say some of the stuff you've said here is well wide of the mark.
WWE wanted to move away from the ruthless aggression era and wanted a more Pg product. That can’t be denied. This was reflective in the crowds they were drawing at live events. The fact there was a portion of the fanbase (mostly online) clamouring for the antihero bad guy doesn’t mean that’s what WWE was looking for from a business perspective. WWE was less bothered about ratings during this period and more concerned with sponsors, merch and how many tickets they were selling. Wrestling had past its boom period.
Im not sure how Punk was an antihero. What part of his gimmick was anti hero? He was literally straight edge. He might not have necessarily been in the Cena/Hogan type but he was way closer to them than Austin, NWO, Rock etc:
Go back and look at Punks reign as a major face. Yes he went up against authority but that doesn’t automatically make you a ‘good bad guy’.
You’re talking like the face of the company currently isn’t Cody Rhodes also (a massive Superman type figure)
That's one hell of a stretch that. CM Punk who didnt wrestle a match anywhere between 2013 and 2021 laid the groundwork for AEW forming in 2019 and the current interest in professional wrestling? Nah, I dont think so...
A lot of this is just wild, speculative and actually not the truth.
This site gives some fairly solid data analysis - https://wrestlenomics.com/tv-rating...f-wwf-wwe-monday-night-raw-ratings-1993-2024/
Pay attention to between 2005-2009 (Cenas boom period) and 2011-2013 (CM Punks period). None of what you've suggested here is reflecting in the figures. The 18-49 demographic that you're implying were driven away actually decreased in viewership numbers for the period after Punks pipe bomb and subsequent title reign which is why during that period Punk was relegated to not being in the main event.
Some further ratings data...
https://www.gerweck.net/tv-ratings/2009-ratings/
https://www.gerweck.net/tv-ratings/2012-tv-ratings/
Yeah this isn't a thing either. It's been up and down the last ten years post Cena. Peaked in 2019 but there's been periods during the last ten years were viewership was much lower than it was during Cena's era.
I think you're speaking for yourself here and others like you who obviously disliked the product massively during the Cena era but don't make go making the mistake of thinking that was a stance everybody took. There's a reason WWE stuck with Cena during that period and it certainly wasn't because he was "driving people away".
WWE is doing very well at the minute in terms of mainstream publicity but don't be fooled into thinking we're seeing ground breaking ratings/interest or something. Their gate receipts are record breaking because they're travelling the world more than ever and they're charging more than they've ever charged for tickets. They're promoting the product more than ever before and their social media output is better than it's ever been, largely due to how society consumes social media now.
The celebrity involvement (in particular celebs with a heavy social media footprint) is huge too.
Appreciate your effort, but .... ratings? Come on man. They an element of importance for the networks and viewing trends of people that still watch like that, but from an overall business sense. Obsolete. Glad we're almost at the point wrestling can genuinely get over them with moves to streaming, hopefully we won't be far off obsessive nitpicking over promoters being promoters and overselling any old number soon enough.
Nor do I get your argument for CM Punk being closer to Cena or Hogan than Rock or Austin. Maybe the past 3-4 years, where he's been in constant "hey, happy to be here" due to essentially returning 3 times in that period.
WWE are putting up a similar number shows than in the peak 99-01 era - despite spacing out their talent far more and giving them (slightly) better breaks, while not being far off a similar average attendance, your own source has it at 10700 average last year vs 11-12000 average for 99-00 with higher prices compared to the average wage... while also showing a steady and obvious decline for peak PG Cena 08-12 to as low as 6500, yes I know this kind of crosses over Punk's pipebomb run... then massively upping the shows from 240 to over 300, and showing consistency despite forcing Roman for another X amount of years... only for clear growth showing as he turns heel. But as you say in your final sentence, there's plenty more to this... but there is to it to ratings anyway.
I'll get back to you in a few years with regards to Cody... yes I appreciate he's booked the same as them now, but Cena and Roman went through 5+ years of this, while not being the same level of wrestler - which ain't saying much, I don't think Cody's overly great himself, and in Roman's case, dude couldn't even promo.
Nor do I get your argument for CM Punk being closer to Cena or Hogan than Rock or Austin. Maybe the past 3-4 years, where he's been in constant "hey, happy to be here" due to essentially returning 3 times in that period.
WWE are putting up a similar number shows than in the peak 99-01 era - despite spacing out their talent far more and giving them (slightly) better breaks, while not being far off a similar average attendance, your own source has it at 10700 average last year vs 11-12000 average for 99-00 with higher prices compared to the average wage... while also showing a steady and obvious decline for peak PG Cena 08-12 to as low as 6500, yes I know this kind of crosses over Punk's pipebomb run... then massively upping the shows from 240 to over 300, and showing consistency despite forcing Roman for another X amount of years... only for clear growth showing as he turns heel. But as you say in your final sentence, there's plenty more to this... but there is to it to ratings anyway.
I'll get back to you in a few years with regards to Cody... yes I appreciate he's booked the same as them now, but Cena and Roman went through 5+ years of this, while not being the same level of wrestler - which ain't saying much, I don't think Cody's overly great himself, and in Roman's case, dude couldn't even promo.
Very weak argument.
You can put on a great match anyway. Undertaker was hardly as good a pure wrestler as most of the locker room but he was usually the match you looked forward to.
Bell to bell, there is no Jey Uso match from the last year or two that you can show to someone who hasn’t watched it in years as an example of why he’s being pushed.
And you know it’s true. You’re just arguing for the sake of it. Well not even arguing, pretending I’m saying something I’m not so that you can feel superior
I think it will be Cena vs. Rhodes at Mania (last time you can get Cena in a big title match at Mania, plus it's generational superstars etc.)
Cena vs. Rhodes
Drew. vs. Roman vs. Punk vs. Seth in some sort of gimmick match.
Gunther vs. Jey
It'll probably be KO and Sami again, but honestly I'm not sure I'm ready for them to have another feud again.
They also need to do something big with Fatu, that guys a star.
See I just can’t see this happening.
I think they’ll push Cenas big title match to Summerslam and have him come short again, but have him win a big singles match at Mania.
Punk to win at the chamber after the Shield guys beat the hell out of each other and he will beat Cena in the end with a roll up or some way where Cena was close but couldn’t quite do it (alternatively Cenas mania opponent savages him).
Cody v Punk
Reigns v Seth
Cena v ????
Jey v Gunther
Multi man matches at Mania with nothing on the line are a bit pointless. One guy pins the other and it doesn’t end the feud or really give them much to shout about.
Cena has never won the IC title, right?
Once he loses the chamber match he can pivot to chasing that to get on the Mania card.
Once he loses the chamber match he can pivot to chasing that to get on the Mania card.
Had to laugh at MacAfee saying we need VAR.Couple points that I don't think beens discussed.
Bliss had one of the loudest pops I've ever heard, has there ever been louder for a woman? Think it beats Becky at summerslam, so unless Im missing one really obvious one?
Also, pentas feet touched the floor
I’d seen on FB someone suggest Jey Uso call out Cody on Raw and then ‘give’ his title shot to The Rock - fecking DUMBEST idea I’ve ever heard. Would bury Jey and the entire RR match.
Also, as someone said earlier, there’s not enough money in the world to make me take that backdrop onto the ladder that KO took. When Shawn Michaels shattered a vertebra on an innocuous looking bump that ‘clipped’ a casket, that was just asking for trouble!
Also, as someone said earlier, there’s not enough money in the world to make me take that backdrop onto the ladder that KO took. When Shawn Michaels shattered a vertebra on an innocuous looking bump that ‘clipped’ a casket, that was just asking for trouble!
Yeah I agree, I started off by saying wwe’s main concern wasn’t ratings. My reasoning for using it was it was the only tangible way to disprove that the Cena/Punk timeline you suggested drove people away and then back again wasn’t correct.
I also think Cena actually helped keep people watching. The problem WWE had between 2009-2012 was the roster was mediocre for the most part. If you look at some of the champions during this era it was pretty bleak. A testament to that is Del Rio and Sheamus winning Royal Rumbles. Cena was one of the few success stories. The people who hated him still turned up on mass to boo him.
As for the attendances I do think that’s massively swayed with the international shows and the big gimmicky raw’s (first on Netflix etc) It’s a credit to them that they’re taking WWE to places never taken before, although some of the ticket prices they’re charging is pretty disgusting.
Cody will be fine I think, I don’t expect him to ever receive Cena or worse Reigns face treatment. I just think live crowds have different attitudes these days.
Don't have to imagine. Just watch the show and you'll see a dead crowd showing that "we totally forgot despite knowing" disappointment. Dude can barely get X-Pac heat at this point and more or less confirms that they pipe it up for Raw, which plenty in attendance already said anyway.
KO came from CZW, that whole match was tame to him, as a viewer, I guess I'm still lost in my youth, because I felt it was well done and executed safe.... the stunts Swerve and Drew did with their backs straight on centreblocks had me a bit more, especially Swerve's - since you could actually visualise the bend. Ouch. But Khan let's them run free a bit much clearly... though it does then lend into WWE in the following weeks, JD's injury this week was clearly as a direct response to the double moonsault on Dynamite
I mean, I'm not taking either!
It's the hard point of the ladder and how high it is off the ground that makes me wince.
Bit of a silly statement mate considering he’s coming off of a quality match just last week against Gunther.
I don’t believe Jey will be in the main event scene for a long period as he’s not at the level of some of the other top talent but at the same time can completely understand why they’ve pulled the trigger. You can bring up match quality all you want, you can’t however argue with the reactions of the fans week in and week out. This guy is on fire, it would make no sense for them as a company to ignore that.
I swear to God, I just YouTubed it. Clicked at 2 random spots in the match. Both times the first thing he did was a superkick
I struggle with this. How can it be entertaining if you already know the next move he’s going to do? He must do about 25 per match.
Only Bron & Roman should be doing spears.
I am jealous. I’ve done it with 3 Jey USO matches now and have literally only seen him do super kicks whenever I’ve stopped it
Well, I just did it about 15 times over 3 matches and only saw 2 superkicks. So you're not right.
You didn’t obviously but I’m sure you feel better saying it
I did, I flicked through the match against Jimmy, Damien Priest and the number 1 contender for the IC title four way.
But you want to believe that all he does is the superkick, so you won't see anything but the superkick or believe anyone else.
I don’t want to believe it. I’m more inclined to root for him. But there’s no entertainment in superkick spams. But I have eyes and that’s 90% of what he does
Also for the challenge you actually need to wait for him to have his first move. Not just anyone, or him getting beaten up.
Wow! we even have Jey marks here.
You could do the same with a lot of talent and them playing paint by numbers throughout a lot of weekly matches.
It’s obviously not your style but you still aren’t really putting up an argument against every single other thing he has going for him. You don’t like his wrestling style and matches, I can’t really argue with that as it’s subjective.
Had a quick play too, jey vs Gunther SNME, I got punches, Samoan drop, sit down power bomb, super kick.
I do agree with the general point that an awful lot of what he does is super kicks, so I’m not expecting a great match with whoever he faces (presumably Gunther), but imagine they can build a good story to make it interesting at least.
Whilst playing the game, also got a lot of chops from Gunther, if we’re criticizing one trick ponies…
I actually did wait for his first move when I did it, there were punches, kicks, dives, and 2 superkicks. If you're really only seeing superkicks and others are seeing other stuff, it's because all you want to see is superkicks because it reinforces your confirmation bias.
I'm a part-time watcher now, so haven't seen as much of Jey Uso. But in terms of 'star power' regardless of any data, he felt like a weaker winner than a lot of the other options from that Rumble which felt very stacked indeed. The main thing is, it doesn't excite me to see him be in a singles match on the Main Event of WrestleMania - against anyone at all. I really think he needs to be in a triple threat to make the match appealing enough to a significant amount of the audience. Even then, I think his match is likely to be on Night One rather than closing out the full show. I expect he will opt to face Gunther, but I'd be surprised if they don't add another big name to that match who will probably take the pinfall instead of Gunther and have an angle of him 'never actually losing the belt' even though it's been done many times.
That's just my perspective anyway, I think it is likely to be echoed by a lot of people, but maybe it's a big chunk of the younger audience who are on the Jey Uso wagon.
Good event though - really enjoyed the Ladder Match. Men's Rumble was good, very stacked as I mentioned above, and if they really want to elevate Jey Uso then overcoming the names in that Rumble Match was definitely the way to do it.
That's just my perspective anyway, I think it is likely to be echoed by a lot of people, but maybe it's a big chunk of the younger audience who are on the Jey Uso wagon.
Good event though - really enjoyed the Ladder Match. Men's Rumble was good, very stacked as I mentioned above, and if they really want to elevate Jey Uso then overcoming the names in that Rumble Match was definitely the way to do it.
They should get Gunther back on track by having him beat the piss out of Jey, set him back up as an unstoppable force for Cena
Says who exactly? The guy resorting to flat out lying about the amount of superkicks he's seeing on YouTube? Goes back to what I said, you're literally only seeing what you want to see.
Don't really know what you're on about with your last paragraph tbh. You're just flat out wrong and despite every metric telling you you're wrong, you're never going to accept that or change opinion, so who's arguing for the sake of arguing really?