The Nani Goal

fredthered said:
Right lets put this in timeline order.


Nani handles ball - Free kick should be awarded. Linesman sees it but doesn't flag.
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Whether linesman saw it or not is debatable, but we can say yes to this one.

Goalie thinks free kick has been given. - so puts ball on floor
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Massive feck up, Goalie's fault.

Nani gets up, realises play is still going on so shoots and scores - Still no flag from the linesman.
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Completely fair.

Spurs players complain - Linesman THEN decides to flag
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Bitter Spurs

The actual penalty shout is irrelevant in all of it. The ref had not awarded the penalty so the first offence committed is Nani handling the ball.
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Everybody quoted the penalty only because you were crying 'Morally wrong'.

The linesman has seen it but makes no effort to notify the referee. He makes the fatal assumption that the ref had seen it.


The linesman is to blame for the free kick not being given. Which then led to Gomez' mistake.
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Whatever, still doesn't make it any less fair on our goal.

But the ultimate blame for that free kick not being given lies with the linesman.

Everything before and after is irrelevant.
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So stop pouting fair or no fair then.
 
Shimo said:
When I started reading this thread I was wondering why no one pointed this out.

If Gomes was taking it as a freekick then why did he push it 10-15 yards out. He carried on the advantage then when he saw his blunder allowing Nani to come on to the ball, decided to play it as though it was a free kick. The fault here lies with Gomes. He's tried to cover up his blunder.

Clattenburg did the right thing by letting them have the advantage of getting the ball so they could launch an attack even though he daftly didn't award a peno.

I'd probably be livid with the ref if this happened to us but, more so at the player that did it.
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But the referee made no effort so signal that an advantage was being played, and I beleive he didnt see the hand ball.

If you look where he was in relation to Nani when he handled the ball the ball was between Nani and the Goalie and the refs vision of the ball was blocked by Nani laying on the floor. So its 99% certain that he didnt see the ball being pulled back by Nani.

At this point the linesman ( who had a 100% clear unimpaired view ) should have raised his flag. But he didnt. he in fact just walked back slowly a few yards. Making no signal whatsoever.

Gomez made the stupid mistake of not playing to the whistle. Which is fair comment. But the fact there was no whistle ( when we all know there should have been ) lies with the fact the linesman didnt do his job.
 
hehe Uncle Harry loses his cool

Harry Redknapp thought referee Mark Clattenburg 'made a mess' of handling Manchester United's second goal in Tottenham's 2-0 defeat and branded it a 'scandalous' decision.

Spurs were trailing to Nemanja Vidic's first-half header at Old Trafford when Nani put the game beyond doubt by scoring five minutes from time.

However, the goal was shrouded in controversy after Nani rolled the ball into the net while Spurs keeper Heurelho Gomes believed he was preparing to take a free-kick.

After consultation with his assistant, Clattenburg allowed the goal to stand, but Redknapp was unhappy that the goal was not chalked off.

The Spurs boss stated Nani should have been booked for handball and could not understand why Clattenburg had not given the visitors a free-kick.
Farcical

A seething Redknapp said: "What a farcical way to finish a game. It's a handball, he's deliberately handled it and it should have been a booking.

"Everyone has seen him do it so we think it's a free-kick, it's just the referee that doesn't see it.

"Everyone saw him do it so it's a free-kick. You can't lie on the floor and pull the ball back just because you've got the hump because you didn't get a penalty.

"It was a scandalous decision and the referee has made a mess of it all."

Clattenburg was famously the referee who refused to allow Pedro Mendes' 'goal' against United in 2005 - an incident which saw Roy Carroll claw the ball back into play from well over the goal-line.

Redknapp said he rated Clattenburg as a referee despite what he deemed a catastrophic error, but may still find his incendiary comments scrutinised by the Football Association.

Asked if he had questioned the officials about the decision, he continued: "It's farcical, but what can you do? It's gone now.

"In the end he'll come up with some excuse as to why he didn't see it - he couldn't see, he let play go on - well if he did that he should have been saying to Gomes 'play on, play on'.

"I haven't spoken to the referee, he's not going to change his decision and he's made a mess of it all now anyway.

"They'll go in and come up with a story that will make it all look right, that's what happens."
 
Kelvin said:
hehe Uncle Harry loses his cool

Harry Redknapp thought referee Mark Clattenburg 'made a mess' of handling Manchester United's second goal in Tottenham's 2-0 defeat and branded it a 'scandalous' decision.

Spurs were trailing to Nemanja Vidic's first-half header at Old Trafford when Nani put the game beyond doubt by scoring five minutes from time.

However, the goal was shrouded in controversy after Nani rolled the ball into the net while Spurs keeper Heurelho Gomes believed he was preparing to take a free-kick.

After consultation with his assistant, Clattenburg allowed the goal to stand, but Redknapp was unhappy that the goal was not chalked off.

The Spurs boss stated Nani should have been booked for handball and could not understand why Clattenburg had not given the visitors a free-kick.
Farcical

A seething Redknapp said: "What a farcical way to finish a game. It's a handball, he's deliberately handled it and it should have been a booking.

"Everyone has seen him do it so we think it's a free-kick, it's just the referee that doesn't see it.

"Everyone saw him do it so it's a free-kick. You can't lie on the floor and pull the ball back just because you've got the hump because you didn't get a penalty.

"It was a scandalous decision and the referee has made a mess of it all."

Clattenburg was famously the referee who refused to allow Pedro Mendes' 'goal' against United in 2005 - an incident which saw Roy Carroll claw the ball back into play from well over the goal-line.

Redknapp said he rated Clattenburg as a referee despite what he deemed a catastrophic error, but may still find his incendiary comments scrutinised by the Football Association.

Asked if he had questioned the officials about the decision, he continued: "It's farcical, but what can you do? It's gone now.

"In the end he'll come up with some excuse as to why he didn't see it - he couldn't see, he let play go on - well if he did that he should have been saying to Gomes 'play on, play on'.

"I haven't spoken to the referee, he's not going to change his decision and he's made a mess of it all now anyway.

"They'll go in and come up with a story that will make it all look right, that's what happens."
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Silly cnut is totally contradicting himself.

If he's not seen it, thats why the free kick hadnt been awarded and no booking given.

The fact the linesman DID see it is another matter.

Redknapp has a right to be pissed off, but he's blaming the wrong person.
 
fredthered said:
But the fact there was no whistle ( when we all know there should have been ) lies with the fact the linesman didnt do his job.
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Why should there have been a whistle?

You may well be right that the ref didn't see it, but if he had done, why should he stop play once Gomez has the ball in his hands?

It's a textbook case for playing advantage.
 
fredthered said:
Right lets put this in timeline order.


Nani handles ball - Free kick should be awarded. Linesman sees it but doesn't flag.

Goalie thinks free kick has been given. - so puts ball on floor

Nani gets up, realises play is still going on so shoots and scores - Still no flag from the linesman.

Spurs players complain - Linesman THEN decides to flag

The actual penalty shout is irrelevant in all of it. The ref had not awarded the penalty so the first offence committed is Nani handling the ball.

The linesman has seen it but makes no effort to notify the referee. He makes the fatal assumption that the ref had seen it.

The linesman is to blame for the free kick not being given. Which then led to Gomez' mistake.

But the ultimate blame for that free kick not being given lies with the linesman.

Everything before and after is irrelevant.
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fredthered specialist subject irrelevance.
 
Wait is there a rule that says if it's a handball there HAS to be a freekick given? I don't think there is.

Nani handballs it, Gomez picks up the ball, ref plays advantage. That's it, don't see what the controversy is.
 
Ill have another look when MOTD comes on but does anyone remember does Gomes deffo know that Nani is behind him?? Could it be that simple, and then tried to claim that he thought it was a free kick??
 
Kelvin said:
hehe Uncle Harry loses his cool

Harry Redknapp thought referee Mark Clattenburg 'made a mess' of handling Manchester United's second goal in Tottenham's 2-0 defeat and branded it a 'scandalous' decision.

Spurs were trailing to Nemanja Vidic's first-half header at Old Trafford when Nani put the game beyond doubt by scoring five minutes from time.

However, the goal was shrouded in controversy after Nani rolled the ball into the net while Spurs keeper Heurelho Gomes believed he was preparing to take a free-kick.

After consultation with his assistant, Clattenburg allowed the goal to stand, but Redknapp was unhappy that the goal was not chalked off.

The Spurs boss stated Nani should have been booked for handball and could not understand why Clattenburg had not given the visitors a free-kick.
Farcical

A seething Redknapp said: "What a farcical way to finish a game. It's a handball, he's deliberately handled it and it should have been a booking.

"Everyone has seen him do it so we think it's a free-kick, it's just the referee that doesn't see it.

"Everyone saw him do it so it's a free-kick. You can't lie on the floor and pull the ball back just because you've got the hump because you didn't get a penalty.

"It was a scandalous decision and the referee has made a mess of it all."

Clattenburg was famously the referee who refused to allow Pedro Mendes' 'goal' against United in 2005 - an incident which saw Roy Carroll claw the ball back into play from well over the goal-line.

Redknapp said he rated Clattenburg as a referee despite what he deemed a catastrophic error, but may still find his incendiary comments scrutinised by the Football Association.

Asked if he had questioned the officials about the decision, he continued: "It's farcical, but what can you do? It's gone now.

"In the end he'll come up with some excuse as to why he didn't see it - he couldn't see, he let play go on - well if he did that he should have been saying to Gomes 'play on, play on'.

"I haven't spoken to the referee, he's not going to change his decision and he's made a mess of it all now anyway.

"They'll go in and come up with a story that will make it all look right, that's what happens."
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Sometimes you do have to admit your player has cocked it up royally as well
 
irwinwastheking said:
Ill have another look when MOTD comes on but does anyone remember does Gomes deffo know that Nani is behind him?? Could it be that simple, and then tried to claim that he thought it was a free kick??
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His body language suggests he knew Nani was there and thought it was a free kick.

There is a really brief period just when Nani's sneaking up on the ball that he gets a bit nervous though.
 
fredthered said:
Right lets put this in timeline order.


Nani handles ball - Free kick should be awarded. Linesman sees it but doesn't flag.

Goalie thinks free kick has been given. - so puts ball on floor

Nani gets up, realises play is still going on so shoots and scores - Still no flag from the linesman.

Spurs players complain - Linesman THEN decides to flag

The actual penalty shout is irrelevant in all of it. The ref had not awarded the penalty so the first offence committed is Nani handling the ball.

The linesman has seen it but makes no effort to notify the referee. He makes the fatal assumption that the ref had seen it.

The linesman is to blame for the free kick not being given. Which then led to Gomez' mistake.

But the ultimate blame for that free kick not being given lies with the linesman.

Everything before and after is irrelevant.
Click to expand...

The actual timeline is;

Nani is fouled - Penalty should be awarded, it isn't.

Nani handles ball - Free kick or advantage should be awarded. Advantage correctly awarded as Spurs are back in possession of the ball and in a position to counter.

Goalie thinks free kick has been given when no indication that a free kick has been given and no whistle blown, takes for granted a free kick has been given when he doesn't have a right to one anyway as advantage is perfectly suitable. - so puts ball on floor wrongly

Nani gets up, realises play is still going on so shoots and scores - Still no flag from the linesman as situation was correct, incident happened, advantage was given, team lost the ball and goal was scored.

Spurs players complain - Linesman THEN decides to flag because he is surrounded by spurs players.

The linesman is to blame for the free kick not being given. Which then led to Gomez' mistake.
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Again, not so as advantage was given, there is no right to a free kick in that instance and advantage was given.

The fault lies completely with Gomes, he made up his own judgement to what happened and decided he was going to give himself a free kick despite not being entitled to one. It was a moment of stupidity from him that he will learn from.
 
EdWeatherall said:
Sometimes you do have to admit your player has cocked it up royally as well
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He's not going to say that on television, is he? It's always easier to deflect the blame towards the officials, but IMO Gomes ought to be the real villain here. I'm sure Harry knows it.
 
A1Dan said:
Why should there have been a whistle?

You may well be right that the ref didn't see it, but if he had done, why should he stop play once Gomez has the ball in his hands?

It's a textbook case for playing advantage.
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Yes it would be, but theres 3 points here

1) The linesman should still have signalled. Regardless of what the ref has or hasnt done, the linesman should have raised his flag the moment Nani handled the ball. He didnt do that. Thats not Gomez' fault, its not the refs fault, its not Nanis' fault.

Even if the ref did see it and awarded an advantage, that still doesnt excuse the fact the linesman still didn't do his job properly.

2) When awarding an advantage, the referee is supposed to make a clear identifiable signal that he recognsises an offence has taken place. He made no such signal.

3) If he had seen it, then he would have awarded a yellow card to Nani for deliberate handball. he could not say "I've seen the handball, but play on" without handing out a yellow card at the same time.

The fact he made no recognition of the foul, and he didnt hand out any punishment is about as conclusive proof as you can get that he didnt see it in the first place, and given his positioning in relation to Nani, you can see why that could happen.
 
RedCafé never fails to amaze me. Had that been the other way around there would not be a single person on here stating the goal should have stood.
 
M160RA said:
He's not going to say that on television, is he? It's always easier to deflect the blame towards the officials, but IMO Gomes ought to be the real villain here. I'm sure Harry knows it.
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I'm sure he does, but it just makes you look a bit silly to go after the officials like that and not acknowledge that your player is equally, if not more so to blame
 
Zarlak said:
The actual timeline is;

Nani is fouled - Penalty should be awarded, it isn't.

Nani handles ball - Free kick or advantage should be awarded. Advantage correctly awarded as Spurs are back in possession of the ball and in a position to counter.

Goalie thinks free kick has been given when no indication that a free kick has been given and no whistle blown, takes for granted a free kick has been given when he doesn't have a right to one anyway as advantage is perfectly suitable. - so puts ball on floor wrongly

Nani gets up, realises play is still going on so shoots and scores - Still no flag from the linesman as situation was correct, incident happened, advantage was given, team lost the ball and goal was scored.

Spurs players complain - Linesman THEN decides to flag because he is surrounded by spurs players.



Again, not so as advantage was given, there is no right to a free kick in that instance and advantage was given.

The fault lies completely with Gomes, he made up his own judgement to what happened and decided he was going to give himself a free kick despite not being entitled to one. It was a moment of stupidity from him that he will learn from.
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Your theory falls down in one particular points.

If the referee has seen the handball then he is obliged to issue a yellow card to Nani for deliberate handball.

If, as you suggest he was playing the advantage, the next time the ball goes dead he must issue Nani with a yellow card. The fact he's allowed an advantage does not stop him from his obligation to issue Nani with a yellow card.

Did Nani get a yellow card for the handball ? No he didnt. Therefore its 100% guaranteed that the ref didnt see it.

( and the fact the cameras caught him admitting as much to Gomez does suggest he didnt either )
 
fredthered said:
If he had seen it, then he would have awarded a yellow card to Nani for deliberate handball.
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Oh dear, Fred. I expect better than that from you. So what offence incurs a free kick and no booking... accidental hand ball?

The rest of what you said is true though, the linesman made a total gimp out himself through the whole incident. But there's no sustainable logic which says the goal shouldn't have stood.

Spurs should have had a freekick? So what, we should have had a penalty. Neither were given, that's life, play on. I think that is what you were saying generally anyway...
 
cw1984 said:
RedCafé never fails to amaze me. Had that been the other way around there would not be a single person on here stating the goal should have stood.
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Spot on..

Red tinted specs again.

Anyone who loves football knows that goal should not have happened.

Just because it worked in Uniteds favour it doesnt make it right.
 
Interesting that the Spurs forums are pretty magnaminous all things considered. A lot say that it should have been a penalty first and a lot saying Gomes fecked up. Decent bunch the Spurs fans. I know the goal should stand and if not it should have been a pen but if it had been against United I would have been understandably pissed. I do hope Harry and his gang keep Citeh out of Europe again.
 
A1Dan said:
Oh dear, Fred. I expect better than that from you. So what offence incurs a free kick and no booking... accidental hand ball?

The rest of what you said is true though, the linesman made a total gimp out himself through the whole incident. But there's no sustainable logic which says the goal shouldn't have stood.

Spurs should have had a freekick? So what, we should have had a penalty. Neither were given, that's life, play on. I think that is what you were saying generally anyway...
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ACCIDENTAL HANDBALL !!!

ARE YOU feckING JOKING ME.

What the hell game were you watching.

He leaned over and dragged the ball back towards him with two hands.

You try telling me thats accidental handball ?
 
fredthered said:
Anyone who loves football knows that goal should not have happened.
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By that logic Anyone who loves football knows that we should have had a penalty. So what?

The missed handball is less of an issue than most refereeing cock-ups to me, because it only led to a goal in conjunction with an act of gross stupidity from Gomez.
 
fredthered said:
ACCIDENTAL HANDBALL !!!

ARE YOU feckING JOKING ME.

What the hell game were you watching.

He leaned over and dragged the ball back towards him with two hands.

You try telling me thats accidental handball ?
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:wenger:

Calm down Fred, you've got totally the wrong end of the stick. Nobody is claiming it was accidental.

You claimed "he is obliged to issue a yellow card to Nani for deliberate handball". Peddling the stupid old myth that deliberate handball is a yellow card offence.

That is all.
 
I really do give up..

Some on here are so wrapped up in United and their belief that nothing United do can ever be wrong, or anything that happens is totally fair if it goes in Uniteds favour, and unfair if it goes against us.

For anyone to claim that was an accidental handball just proves the stupid depths people will go to to prove how much they will stand by United.

You just cant debate with people who are just so wrapped up in "I love United so I stand by them no matter what " kind of mentality.
 
fredthered said:
ACCIDENTAL HANDBALL !!!

ARE YOU feckING JOKING ME.

What the hell game were you watching.

He leaned over and dragged the ball back towards him with two hands.

You try telling me thats accidental handball ?
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I don't know why you're bothering Fred. I learned after the penalty incident at Old Trafford between Carrick and Gomes that some people are just so unbelieveably biased they actually convince themselves that they are correct.
 
A1Dan said:
Who has claimed that? Calm down, breath deeply...
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Oh dear, Fred. I expect better than that from you. So what offence incurs a free kick and no booking... accidental hand ball?


Now who said that I wonder ?
 
cw1984 said:
Don't worry you havent, because I don't believe you. I'm sure you believe it yourself, mind.
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Plenty of evidence on this site to show I'm not just a sheep. People have conviction, and your cheap way of trying to gain moral high ground on the debate looks pretty shallow in the circumstances. Especially when its clear the goal was legitimate, as even the likes of Kevin Keegan were forced to concede
 
A1Dan said:
:wenger:

Calm down Fred, you've got totally the wrong end of the stick. Nobody is claiming it was accidental.

You claimed "he is obliged to issue a yellow card to Nani for deliberate handball". Peddling the stupid old myth that deliberate handball is a yellow card offence.

That is all.
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Deliberate handball is a yellow card offence.
 
cw1984 said:
I learned after the penalty incident at Old Trafford between Carrick and Gomes that some people are just so unbelieveably biased they actually convince themselves that they are correct.
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That was another ridiculous media frenzy though... a totally understandable, run of the mill error from the ref gets turned into "the worst decision ever seen".

Was it a penalty? No.

Was it easy to see why the ref gave it? Yes.

Was it an unusually bad decision? No.

Because it was Spurs v Utd, within a couple of years of the goal that never stood, did it get totally blown out of proportion? Yes.

Anyway, back to topic...
 
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