Again your opinion, i would disagree; as he was not seeking any particular advantage by his action to deem it unsporting behaviour requiring a yellow card would be harsh
The Nani Goal
- Thread starter Alex
- Start date
Again your opinion, i would disagree; as he was not seeking any particular advantage by his action to deem it unsporting behaviour requiring a yellow card would be harsh
Yep, that annoys me nearly as much as commentators who say deliberate handball is an automatic booking.
Am I repeating myself?
The linesman never raised his flag until the ball already gone in and the Spurs players protested. The fact that he did not raise the flag on Nani's handball nor did the ref stop the play meant that Spurs were given advantage to continue play. The linesman has no right to go back on the decision that had already been made and he made a mockery of himself by rasing the flag later. Ref had his hands behind his back when Nani went down then he held his hands forward signaling play to continue right in front of Gomes. Gomes just made a fool of himself really, thinking a freekick is given eventhough no whistle or any official indication of a freekick were shown (linesman never raised his flag at the handball incident). I can't imagine VDS to ever do that. He would hold on to the ball, run to the clear and roll the ball out to kick it as soon as possible.
If Fred is right then I apologise, but I'm pretty disturbed to learn that, going by his own statements about "the rules of the game being clear," the Football Association has taken to creating their own supplementary laws in secret and subsequently not disclosing them to either the public or FIFA.
If "deliberate handball" is always a cautionable offence, as Fred insists, then the FA has literally rewritten the rules, which should be a worry for anyone who believes in the global game.
If "deliberate handball" is always a cautionable offence, as Fred insists, then the FA has literally rewritten the rules, which should be a worry for anyone who believes in the global game.
This isn't exactly my argument, but I've only just noticed your faux-expertise, and it's painful nonsense which deserves to be skewered. So, in addition to what I posted above:
Of course the first one may suggest that "deliberate handball" could be a cautionable offence, but that's not a rule, it's the referee's prerogative.
They all come under the acronym DUPE
Dissent
Unsporting behaviour
Persistent offending
Entering or leaving the field of play without permission.
As you say, a ref has the perogative to penalise as they see fit.
If a player celebrates a goal and leaves the pitch is the ref duty bound to give a yellow card ? No he's not. But should that player leave the pitch to remonstrate with a supporter the ref has that discretion to use it as he sees fit.
Not moving back far enough is construed as unsporting behaviour. So is tripping an opponent.
The laws relating to handball and how to apply them are completely up to the discretion of a referee, but referees are advised that where a player deliberately and without reason attempts to interupt the game by using his hands then he should be awarded a yellow card for unsporting behaviour.
In the case of Nani, he has just had a penalty appeal turned down, and in what could be construed as a fit of temper, has grabbed hold of the ball either preventing the opposing player from getting the ball whilst it is still in play, or attempting to influence the referee into making a decision in his favour.
Don't worry, it's only Fred and a load of commentators who have re-written the laws...
Nice acronym, and lots more words afterwards too.
But did you earlier say deliberate handball was an automatic booking?
how has this thread made it to page 9???????????????????????? It was a clear goal down to stupidity from a Spurs player. And that only came about because nani was denied a clear penalty. And all rthat whilst we were 1-0 up.
Much ado about nothing
Much ado about nothing
It's nothing sinister, they're simply guidelines for referees to follow, but they are not laws. I imagine other countries have similar things, I expect even UEFA do. I'd be amazed if any of them say deliberate handball is always a bookable offence though.
I worded it badly.
You have to look at the context of what is deliberate handball, and how it came about.
If a ball is kicked towards a players face and in going to protect his face he raises his hands to protect his face, then he could be construed as acting deliberately, but wouldnt warrant a yellow card.
Thierry Henrys' goal against Ireland would most definitely warrant a yellow card as he has without any doubt attempted to cheat.
A player lying on the floor who reaches out and pulls the ball away from an opponent because he's not happy with the referees decision would in 99.999 cases warrant a yellow card.
Nice acronym, and lots more words afterwards too.
But did you earlier say deliberate handball was an automatic booking?
In the context of which we are speaking then yes it would be.
There was no justification behind him handling the ball whatsoever. His act was deliberate and purely done in a manner that was "unsporting"
That is the most important part. UNSPORTING.
The goal was scored legally .... Kicked by a foot into the net ... So a goal is awarded ! No problems there .. The problem is the events leading up to the goal ... Illegal events may have taken place , but that happens every week one way or another ...
We move on
We move on
Spot on.
No problems whatsoever with Clattenberg. In fact he deserves credit for his decision. He was 100% spot on.
The problem arises in the build up to the goal.
The fact Nani wasnt given a penalty in no way excuses him handling the ball, and does not negate the fact a free kick should have been given.
The blame for it not being given rests with the linesman who could and should have drawn the referees attention to it.
Even if the referee was playing an advantage ( which there is not one scrap of evidence to suggest that was the case ) the linesman should still have raised his flag.
Just watched again on MOTD. A booking would be very harsh... players get fouled and grab the ball all the time and don't get booked. He doesn't gain anyadvantage, or seek to.
BTW, where did you stand on that weird one a couple of seasons back when Ronaldo caught it form a corner?
Also just saw Harry giving it "deliberate hand ball = yellow card" again. You really want to be careful using that term of phrase, it's just wrong.
BBC showing bias as usual no mention of the pen but its expected though
There is the alternative side to it.
If it were not a bookable offence then players would simply grab hold of the ball when it suited and receive nothing more than a free kick against them.
Handball is actually a very rare occurence in the game, and in a game handball is the least likely offence to occur.
Thats why it draws so much confusion. No one can definitely say what handball is, and what constitutes handball.
However, every referee is told that if a player without reason or justification deliberately handles the ball in a manner that can be seen as attempting to influence the game or deprive the opposition of the ball, then they warrant a yellow card for unsporting behaviour.
Seen it, it's Gomez's fault for being such a spastic.
The bit I find strange is people saying that Gomes ROLLED the ball out. He didn't. He PLACED it ten yards further forward than where the offence took place.
On Thursday, I was discussing cheating such as that and abusing officials for not giving your side throw-ins when you know you touched the ball last (Macheda vs Wolves).
With Gomes, I have no sympathy with the cheat coming unstuck.
On Thursday, I was discussing cheating such as that and abusing officials for not giving your side throw-ins when you know you touched the ball last (Macheda vs Wolves).
With Gomes, I have no sympathy with the cheat coming unstuck.
MOTD pundits struggling to say anything other than 'bizarre, bizarre' and reshowing the completely irrelevant Mendes disallowed goal half a decade back
License fee spent wisely once again
License fee spent wisely once again
Was always going to be. They will bang on about that everytime we get a favourable decision against Spurs for decades.
The Germans still bleat about '66. And they're not even perpetual losers like Spurs!
It's not, it's Twattenburg and the lino's for not penalising a handball. It doesn't take 20 pages of debate to figure it out. Nani did nothing wrong by sticking it in to the net but that's irrelevant.
Completely irrelevant unless you want to create more controversy than there actually is.
I'm still a bit confused, that said what on earth was Gomes doing? Nani stood still with the ball at his feet for an eternity before hitting hit.
What about the penalty? You can't take the handball into account but not the foul.
If hes fouled, then the ball is dead and therefore he's not committing any offence.
I do not recall the incident. WIthout seeing it I couldnt comment
In the context of how it occured then yes, he has a point. The way Nani handled the ball, I would expect him to receive a yellow card for it, and I expect most referees would have given him one.
Clattenberg ( for all his faults ) is a very good referee, and if he had seen Nani handle the ball the way he did, I have no doubt in my mind he would have carded Nani for it.
The fact he didnt give Nani a yellow card would make me believe Clattenberg didnt see the incident and because there was nothing coming from the linesman he allowed play to continue. Allowing play to continue because you didnt see an offence is not the same thing as allowing a team to play the advantage rule.
On a side note, playing the advantage rule in that situation would be wholly unnessary as there would be no advantage to be gained for Spurs in letting things carry on. What possible advantage were they gaining by letting them carry on and ignoring the offence.
I would be prepared to bet that Clattenberg will come out and say the reason he didnt blow his whistle is because he had not seen Nani handle the ball.
What a great finish!
The real feck up in that sequence of events was not giving a pen when Nani was blatantly hauled back in the box. Yer man had hold of him with both frigging hands ffs.
If Clattenburg got that right he'd have saved himself a real headache.
Oh and lol. Just lol.
Exactly.
If Clattenberg didnt see the handball then its not his fault either.
The line has a 100% clear unobstructed view, and should have raised his flag.
He didnt.
The moment he failed to put his flag up then he became the reason for everything else happening.
yes you can.
The ref didnt see any offence in the challenge, as he saw it.
Just because the ref doesnt award the penalty, it doesnt excuse deliberately grabbing the ball.
The penalty ( and whether it should or should not have been given ) has absolutely NOTHING to do with the events that occured later on.
The incident in question is the handball. Nothing more, nothing less.
Against City. We had a corner, floated it in, blocked it with his hands for no apparent reason when it looked easier to score with his head. Got sent off, as he was already on a yellow and it was "deliberate handball".
In reality, City were the only ones to gain an advantage, as 99 times out of 100 Ronaldo would have just headed it in the net.
*Edited for shit memory, but not as shit as Freds!
No difference.
In both cases an offence was comitted and the ref didn't see it.
By that logic the handball ( and whether it should or should not have been given ) has absolutely NOTHING to do with the events that occured later on.
The incident in question is the goal. Nothing more, nothing less.
Yeah I'm with A1 on that, if the penalty is irrelevant then so is the handball.
In this case, I think the most appropriate course of action would be to let it go. What has he gained from it ? Absolutely nothing whatsoever, in fact its to his teams detriment that he's handled it.
Which actually takes me to another point. If Clattenberg had seen the handball, then under the guidelines given to referees, the moment he got up and scored he would have justified a yellow card because by handling the ball he influenced the game and his actions resulted in his team gaining a goal that they would not otherwise have got had he not handled the ball.
For that reason I am 200% certain Clattenberg did not see it, and the reason the ball was still in play is not because the ref allowed Spurs to play the advantage, it was because play had not stopped because the referee had not seen any offence in the first place.
Redknapp confirmed in his BBC post match interview that Clattenberg told him he'd played advantage. He then bleated about why the player hadn't been booked, just as Fred has here. There is no rule stating he has to be booked, and its completely irrelevant to the fact the ball was still in play, and Gomes is a tool. A yard cheating tool at that
Just wached the match.
Way I see it is that most of the players made an assumption and reacted according to that assumption (Nani also). However the ref did not blow his whistle at any point therefore the game just carries on as normal. The ball is still in play.
However Gomes picks the bal up from near Nani, goes and places it down a little further upfield and doesn't kick it. Nani goes over to it, kicks it and scores.
I must admit I had to laugh.
Way I see it is that most of the players made an assumption and reacted according to that assumption (Nani also). However the ref did not blow his whistle at any point therefore the game just carries on as normal. The ball is still in play.
However Gomes picks the bal up from near Nani, goes and places it down a little further upfield and doesn't kick it. Nani goes over to it, kicks it and scores.
I must admit I had to laugh.
Thats just plain stupidity.
The penalty decision was debatable, the handball wasnt.
The ref could argue for or against a penalty being awarded there. He could not argue for or against that handball. It most definitely did 100% happen.
Some refs would have given that penalty, some wouldnt. Thats their discretion.
No referee seeing that handball would not have given a free kick..
Or are you trying to claim that the referees should have discretion whether to penalise handballs like that and its open to debate whether what hes done or not breaks the laws of the game.
Someone else who spotted what was so glaringly obvious.
Virtually everyone inside OT assumed the free kick had been awarded.
The referee didn't give the handball, making it the exact same as the penalty not being given, meaning it is irrelevant, simple.
hehe, this!