The Nani Goal

[Lester Freamon]

He's a coward?

Perhaps.

The only mistake made was not giving the penalty imo.

You would not believe the outcry from my Spurs mates after this. You'd think we just nettet an offside handball goal 23 minutes into injury time. They were losing and more importantly creating feck all AND should have had a penalty against them. I just can't understand what their case is here.

 

[fredthered]

Fred, you're being too kind on Gomez. It doesn't matter if the whole stadium thought it was a free-kick - there was no whistle, so it was utterly daft to put the ball on ground. It was a schoolboy error on his part. You're complaining about the linesman, and yes he did come out looking rather incompetent. But in all fairness, he should have flagged for a penalty earlier anyways - so if we're going to say that it was an unfair goal because a decision wasn't given moments earlier in Spurs' favor, you have to say that it is cancelled out by the fact that we should have had a penalty regardless.

Yes, in hindsight it was stupid of Gomez, but given the reactions of every United player as well I think his reaction was understandable.

Why didnt any other player barring Nani go for the goal. he wasnt the only one in the area at the time. I think it was Berbatov, was actually closer to the ball when Gomez put it on the floor, and he made no effort either to play it.

if you want to be truthful, every player on that pitch barring Nani made the fundamental mistake of not playing to the refs whistle. So picking on Gomez does seem a bit harsh.

 

[Lester Freamon]

Wouldnt that be doing the same thing the linesman may have done, that you suggested was a lack of balls on his part if it were really the case?

The bit that makes it clear enough for me is, the ref is looking at it the whole time. Nani looks over to him for confirmation and he signals to play on. And if the linesman proves the ref with any new information in their discussion, you'd imagine he'd act surprised or reverse his decision. He did neither.

The ref seemed in complete control the whole time and having watched the whole thing, you can see why. The only delay was from the Spurs fans pestering the linesman until he got the ref to come over to talk about the handball/no kick or whatever.

Agreed. You can clearly see that Clattenburg is fully aware of what the linesman has to say. There was never any doubt from Clattenburg towards the decision.

 

[Lester Freamon]

Yes, in hindsight it was stupid of Gomez, but given the reactions of every United player as well I think his reaction was understandable.

Why didnt any other player barring Nani go for the goal. he wasnt the only one in the area at the time. I think it was Berbatov, was actually closer to the ball when Gomez put it on the floor, and he made no effort either to play it.

if you want to be truthful, every player on that pitch barring Nani made the fundamental mistake of not playing to the refs whistle. So picking on Gomez does seem a bit harsh.

Berbatov was on the bench.

 

[Lester Freamon]

Yes, in hindsight it was stupid of Gomez, but given the reactions of every United player as well I think his reaction was understandable.

Why didnt any other player barring Nani go for the goal. he wasnt the only one in the area at the time. I think it was Berbatov, was actually closer to the ball when Gomez put it on the floor, and he made no effort either to play it.

if you want to be truthful, every player on that pitch barring Nani made the fundamental mistake of not playing to the refs whistle. So picking on Gomez does seem a bit harsh.

Gomes was also the only player in possession of the ball.

 

[fredthered]

He's a coward?

Spot on..

The linesman realised after the goal had been awarded he'd made a monumental feck up.

If he'd stuck his flag up the moment Nani handled the ball the ref could have acted. As it was he didnt, and that meant Clattenberg had to award the goal.

Clattenberg took the only course of action available to him, and fair play.

 

[Claymore]

That goal was the difference, so was the similarly unjust winner at Stamford Bridge.

No mate, the difference was that at their place we actually played fairly well but at Old Trafford we were shocking, didn't look up for it at all and whilst I see your point about "we could have equalised as United do", it was unlikely. It was a crucial game, we knew it, yet blew it.

Like today, Spurs played up to the ref, lots will be made of it by papers and pundtis but I reckon we'd have won anyway and were already leading.

When you lose the title by a single goal, and both of those goals (that doesn't actually make sense, but nevermind) are blatantly illegitimate, it is hard not to feel annoyed. If anything it's really rather remarkable that United fans aren't more bitter about it, if it happened to the scousers...

Yeah, if it was the Scousers............ they'd be banging on about it much more than we would as if that only Drogba offside goal somehow cost us the title, when looking back across the season it wasn't really the case. It was a great effort and very close to a record 4th title in a row, but sadly not close enough, offside or not, IMO. The Scousers are mugs, they still think they won the Premiership 2 years ago.

Hope they enjoy Nani tonight on MOTD.

 

[RK]

Why would they give a free kick for handball? Gomez had it in his hands and had no reason to think the freekick had been given.

Well played by Nani.

 

[AVARiCE]

But my point isnt that the ref was right to give the goal, because he was. My point is, penalty aside, it should have been a free kick to spurs.

And, free kick aside, it was a goal for us.

If the lino had done his job, a free kick would hve been given.

If the lino had done his job, a penalty would have been given.

The reason the ref didnt award the free kick is because the lino made no effort to tell him until the ball had gone in net, by which time the ref had awarded the goal and he could not disallow the goal because the lino had to admit he fecked up.

To clarify here, when a linesman screws up and we benefit (despite having been wronged mere seconds earlier!) it's not right?

There's a phrase, "If a husband says an opinion miles away from his wife, is he still wrong?" which comes to mind. For some reason United can't be right in this situation.

Final question to you Fred, if the free kick was for the handball, why did Gomes put the ball about 6 yards ahead of the handball for his free kick? Or can Spurs truly do no wrong in this situation?

 

[fredthered]

Gomes was also the only player in possession of the ball.

No he wasnt. The ball was on the floor in open play.

Not ONE United player barring Nani made any effort to play it, and as I say, one player at least, was even closer to the ball than Nani.

Barring Nani, there wasnt another United player who thought the ball wasnt dead. You even see Fletcher talking the ref as he's tracking backwards.

Nani deserves credit for being hte only player on the pitch smart enough to realise what had gone on, and even then he took the time to check.

 

[Roger]

Clattenberg ( you saw him admit it after the game to Gomez ) hadnt seen the handball. And if you look at his positioning you would see why he maybe wouldnt have seen it.


The spurs players have absolutely no arguments against Clattenberg. He played it EXACTLY as he saw it. if he didnt see the handball the the linesman ( who clearly had seen it ) didnt signal, then as far as Clattenberg is concerned, no offence has taken place.

Thats not saying it didnt happen, just he ( Clattenberg ) hadnt seen it and therefore could only act on what he saw.

The fault lies 100% with the linesman. No one else.

Was it a fair goal. No it wasnt. We all know a free kick should have been given against Nani for the handball, but it wasnt and because no freekick was given Nani was 100% right to put the ball in the net.

So Gomez is not at fault at all then. What utter bollocks. The mistake the linesman made was putting his flag up, only after being surrounded by Spurs players claiming the referree had awarded a free kick, when he actually hadn't.

 

[redpie]

Once you rule it out, to actually overturn the decision was scandalous.

The linesman flagging does not rule out a goal. Only the ref can decide that and he ruled it a goal before the flag and after the flag.
So there was no overturning of a decision. That would have only happend if the ref had disallowed the goal.

 

[AVARiCE]

Yes, in hindsight it was stupid of Gomez, but given the reactions of every United player as well I think his reaction was understandable.

Why didnt any other player barring Nani go for the goal. he wasnt the only one in the area at the time. I think it was Berbatov, was actually closer to the ball when Gomez put it on the floor, and he made no effort either to play it.

if you want to be truthful, every player on that pitch barring Nani made the fundamental mistake of not playing to the refs whistle. So picking on Gomez does seem a bit harsh.

*Sigh*

Berbs wasn't on the pitch. Hernandez was on the opposite side of the box. Nani was the closest United player to the ball.

I've never known someone so staunchly United be so staunchly ABU. Quit clutching at straws and admit you've made a mistake Fred.

 

[AVARiCE]

No he wasnt. The ball was on the floor in open play.

Not ONE United player barring Nani made any effort to play it, and as I say, one player at least, was even closer to the ball than Nani.

Barring Nani, there wasnt another United player who thought the ball wasnt dead. You even see Fletcher talking the ref as he's tracking backwards.

Nani deserves credit for being hte only player on the pitch smart enough to realise what had gone on, and even then he took the time to check.

Scholesy and Carrick weren't playing for us today?? Carrick had both arms out screaming for Nani to score and Scholes even went to the trouble of sprinting through the middle in case Nani needed support.

 

[championo]

The linesman started running towards the centre of the field AFTER the goal went in and didn't raise his flag then. Him running towards the middle is the same as signalling a goal. What made him change his mind all of a sudden?

I don't think he starting running after the goal, he immediately raised his flag as soon as Nani hit the ball into the net

 

[fredthered]

And, free kick aside, it was a goal for us.



If the lino had done his job, a penalty would have been given.



To clarify here, when a linesman screws up and we benefit (despite having been wronged mere seconds earlier!) it's not right?

There's a phrase, "If a husband says an opinion miles away from his wife, is he still wrong?" which comes to mind. For some reason United can't be right in this situation.

Final question to you Fred, if the free kick was for the handball, why did Gomes put the ball about 6 yards ahead of the handball for his free kick? Or can Spurs truly do no wrong in this situation?

Gomez assumed ( as did many United players ) that a free kick had been given. He then puts the ball on the floor to take a free kick.

Naturally, as any player does, he tries to steal a few yards hoping to get away with it.

Gomez should have played to the whistle, fair comment, but that doesnt negate the fact Nani handled the ball.

The ref didnt give a penalty, so therefore the ball is still active. Nani handled it. THAT IS A FREE KICK. Irrespective of the injustice of the non penatly award.

 

[fredthered]

I don't think he starting running after the goal, he immediately raised his flag as soon as Nani hit the ball into the net

No he didnt.

he didnt raise the flag until Gomez had run across the pitch banging his hands signalling that there was a handball.

 

[M160RA]

No he wasnt. The ball was on the floor in open play.

Not ONE United player barring Nani made any effort to play it, and as I say, one player at least, was even closer to the ball than Nani.

Barring Nani, there wasnt another United player who thought the ball wasnt dead. You even see Fletcher talking the ref as he's tracking backwards.

Nani deserves credit for being hte only player on the pitch smart enough to realise what had gone on, and even then he took the time to check.

I'd have to see a replay, but I don't recall any player being closer to the ball than Nani was. In fact, when Nani looked back towards the referee I seem to recall another player (possibly Fletcher) urging Nani to take the shot.

 

[fredthered]

*Sigh*

Berbs wasn't on the pitch. Hernandez was on the opposite side of the box. Nani was the closest United player to the ball.

I've never known someone so staunchly United be so staunchly ABU. Quit clutching at straws and admit you've made a mistake Fred.

What are you on about you dickhead.

I am saying the ref what right to give the goal.

How is that being ABU you fecking muppet.

 

[fishfingers15]

I don't think he starting running after the goal, he immediately raised his flag as soon as Nani hit the ball into the net

No. He raised after a number of Spurs players ran to him for protesting.

 

[RedPhil1957]

Gomez assumed ( as did many United players ) that a free kick had been given. He then puts the ball on the floor to take a free kick.

Naturally, as any player does, he tries to steal a few yards hoping to get away with it.

Gomez should have played to the whistle, fair comment, but that doesnt negate the fact Nani handled the ball.

The ref didnt give a penalty, so therefore the ball is still active. Nani handled it. THAT IS A FREE KICK. Irrespective of the injustice of the non penatly award.

Its only a free kick if the ref gives it and he didn't; his decision is final. Playing to the whistle is a basic lesson in playing the game.

 

[fredthered]

I'd have to see a replay, but I don't recall any player being closer to the ball than Nani was. In fact, when Nani looked back towards the referee I seem to recall another player (possibly Fletcher) urging Nani to take the shot.

Fletcher was tracking back beside the ref. I would assume complaining about the non award of the penalty.

Why if he believed the ball was in play would he be walking backwards talking to the referee ?

 

[redhoop]

No he wasnt. The ball was on the floor in open play.

Not ONE United player barring Nani made any effort to play it, and as I say, one player at least, was even closer to the ball than Nani.

Barring Nani, there wasnt another United player who thought the ball wasnt dead. You even see Fletcher talking the ref as he's tracking backwards.

Nani deserves credit for being hte only player on the pitch smart enough to realise what had gone on, and even then he took the time to check.

As someone else pointed out, Scholes certainly noticed. I just had another look and he is clearly shouting at Nani to take it (having looked to the ref to ensure the ball is still in play) and has already started pelting for the box when the goal is scored - hence him being the first to congratulate the goal-scorer. If it's good enough for him, then it's good enough for me

 

[Lester Freamon]

I don't think he starting running after the goal, he immediately raised his flag as soon as Nani hit the ball into the net

I KNOW he started running because I just saw the replay and it was even highlighted on TV.

 

[AVARiCE]

Naturally, as any player does, he tries to steal a few yards hoping to get away with it.

That's very immoral of him.

The ref didnt give a penalty, so therefore the ball is still active. Nani handled it. THAT IS A FREE KICK. Irrespective of the injustice of the non penatly award.

You're impossible, you know that? The referee didn't give the penalty, therefore the ball is still active. The referee didn't give the free kick for handball but that IS a free kick? You're not even playing by the rules here Fred.

 

[fredthered]

Its only a free kick if the ref gives it and he didn't; his decision is final. Playing to the whistle is a basic lesson in playing the game.

Which I agree with.

But Gomez wasnt the only person on the pitch who made that mistake. The only person who didn't was Nani.

Yes Gomez fecked up, but its kind of understandable why he fecked up. You can understand why he would believe a free kick had been awarded. I can't say the whole debacle is his fault when others ( including United players ) came to the same conclusion.

My point is that the person who SHOULD get all the blame is the linesman. He clearly saw the handball and made no effort to tell the referee what he'd seen.

When he realised what the mistake was he tried to correct it by then raising his flag and telling the ref about the handball, but by that time the ref had allowed the goal and he couldnt retrospectively award the free kick.

 

[Roger]

I don't think he starting running after the goal, he immediately raised his flag as soon as Nani hit the ball into the net

No he raised the flag after being surrounded by Spurs players.

 

[fredthered]

That's very immoral of him.



You're impossible, you know that? The referee didn't give the penalty, therefore the ball is still active. The referee didn't give the free kick for handball but that IS a free kick? You're not even playing by the rules here Fred.

So you dont see a difference between a penalty decision that was hardly stonewalled and a player laying on the floor and deliberatley pulling the ball back to him with his hands ?

The penalty was one of those things that could go either way. Reaching out and grabbing hold of the ball with your hands and pulling back to you is most definitely not.

 

[AVARiCE]

What are you on about you dickhead.

I am saying the ref what right to give the goal.

How is that being ABU you fecking muppet.

No need to swear or call names dear.

You're playing devil's advocate but the weird thing is that I don't even think you're doing it hypothetically. You genuinely think Spurs have done no wrong and that scoring the goal was somehow immoral of us.

It's being ABU in the sense that you've seen all the angles from which we look bad but not the entire picture. Which, surprisingly to you and the ABU media, is that an eye was taken for an eye in the build up and Nani capitalised.

 

[M160RA]

Fletcher was tracking back beside the ref. I would assume complaining about the non award of the penalty.

Why if he believed the ball was in play would he be walking backwards talking to the referee ?

Like I said, I'm not sure who it was. But on one of the replays you can see an out-of-focus United player urging Nani to shoot.

 

[redhoop]

Which I agree with.

But Gomez wasnt the only person on the pitch who made that mistake. The only person who didn't was Nani.

Yes Gomez fecked up, but its kind of understandable why he fecked up. You can understand why he would believe a free kick had been awarded. I can't say the whole debacle is his fault when others ( including United players ) came to the same conclusion.

My point is that the person who SHOULD get all the blame is the linesman. He clearly saw the handball and made no effort to tell the referee what he'd seen.

When he realised what the mistake was he tried to correct it by then raising his flag and telling the ref about the handball, but by that time the ref had allowed the goal and he couldnt retrospectively award the free kick.

But just because a mistake is understandable, it is still a mistake. In this case a costly one. As many others have said, if it had been VDS, I'd have been extremely pissed off with him - especially given the fundamental nature of playing to the whistle.

Certainly the linesman is partially culpaple, as could be argued is the ref for not seeing the handball (or indeed the penalty preceding it) but it seems very odd indeed to try and completely absolve the keeper. If Gomez had done his job properly it would all have been a moot point. I presume he still tries to save goals even if he thinks the striker if off-side so he should be alive to situations like this even if they are a lot rarer.

And besides all this, we were already winning. Winning. Spurs didn't score before and they didn't score afterwards, so meh - it's interesting but academic.

 

[Olly Gunnar Solskjær]

Like I said, I'm not sure who it was. But on one of the replays you can see an out-of-focus United player urging Nani to shoot.

It was Fletcher.

EDIT: Scholes and Park did too.

 

[RedPhil1957]

Which I agree with.

But Gomez wasnt the only person on the pitch who made that mistake. The only person who didn't was Nani.

Yes Gomez fecked up, but its kind of understandable why he fecked up. You can understand why he would believe a free kick had been awarded. I can't say the whole debacle is his fault when others ( including United players ) came to the same conclusion.

My point is that the person who SHOULD get all the blame is the linesman. He clearly saw the handball and made no effort to tell the referee what he'd seen.

When he realised what the mistake was he tried to correct it by then raising his flag and telling the ref about the handball, but by that time the ref had allowed the goal and he couldnt retrospectively award the free kick.

You are assuming the ref did not see the handball when it is perfectly feasible that he did see it and as Gomez had the ball in his hands running forward with it just allowed play to continue trying to give an advantage to spurs by speeding up play.

 

[Tumbling-Dice]

Hard to make out the biggest muppet here .. Gomez, the linesman or fredthered ?

 

[Shimo]

Rio's take from Twitter:

Handball but the Ref didn't blow so how can it be a free kick?? If its a free kick why did Gomez put the ball 10yards away from incident??

When I started reading this thread I was wondering why no one pointed this out.

If Gomes was taking it as a freekick then why did he push it 10-15 yards out. He carried on the advantage then when he saw his blunder allowing Nani to come on to the ball, decided to play it as though it was a free kick. The fault here lies with Gomes. He's tried to cover up his blunder.

Clattenburg did the right thing by letting them have the advantage of getting the ball so they could launch an attack even though he daftly didn't award a peno.

I'd probably be livid with the ref if this happened to us but, more so at the player that did it.

 

[AVARiCE]

So you dont see a difference between a penalty decision that was hardly stonewalled and a player laying on the floor and deliberatley pulling the ball back to him with his hands ?

The penalty was one of those things that could go either way. Reaching out and grabbing hold of the ball with your hands and pulling back to you is most definitely not.

I do see that. I also see that neither were given. I also see the rationale for both reasons. The penalty wasn't a stonewall penalty (but still was, in my eyes) and the handball did nothing because Gomes had the ball in his hands. It's not like he handballed it out of the keepers gloves and went on to stab it home. Gomes had the situation under control, the players had started to retreat because our attacking phase was clearly over. Some might call this an "advantage being played". Gomes then walked forward a few yards, had a brainfart and placed the ball down.

What do you want me to say here? Nani handled the ball but he gained no advantage from it. Gomes had the ball safely in his gloves so an advantage was played. He might have gotten even a semblance of sympathy from me if he'd placed the ball down on the spot but he took the ball to another part of his area for the free-kick, which says to me that he thought it was a free-kick for a dive. Which it wasn't. Emphasis on neither the linesman flagging or the referee blowing his whistle.

Like I said, I'm not sure who it was. But on one of the replays you can see an out-of-focus United player urging Nani to shoot.

Carrick I reckon. Carrick was near the referee and was telling Nani to shoot. Scholesy was screaming at him and even started running in support.

 

[fredthered]

But just because a mistake is understandable, it is still a mistake. In this case a costly one. As many others have said, if it had been VDS, I'd have been extremely pissed off with him - especially given the fundamental nature of playing to the whistle.

Certainly the linesman is partially culpaple, as could be argued is the ref for not seeing the handball (or indeed the penalty preceding it) but it seems very odd indeed to try and completely absolve the keeper. If Gomez had done his job properly it would all have been a moot point. I presume he still tries to save goals even if he thinks the striker if off-side so he should be alive to situations like this even if they are a lot rarer.

And besides all this, we were already winning. Winning. Spurs didn't score before and they didn't score afterwards, so meh - it's interesting but academic.

Right lets put this in timeline order.


Nani handles ball - Free kick should be awarded. Linesman sees it but doesn't flag.

Goalie thinks free kick has been given. - so puts ball on floor

Nani gets up, realises play is still going on so shoots and scores - Still no flag from the linesman.

Spurs players complain - Linesman THEN decides to flag

The actual penalty shout is irrelevant in all of it. The ref had not awarded the penalty so the first offence committed is Nani handling the ball.

The linesman has seen it but makes no effort to notify the referee. He makes the fatal assumption that the ref had seen it.

The linesman is to blame for the free kick not being given. Which then led to Gomez' mistake.

But the ultimate blame for that free kick not being given lies with the linesman.

Everything before and after is irrelevant.

 

[Roger]

Which I agree with.

But Gomez wasnt the only person on the pitch who made that mistake. The only person who didn't was Nani.

Yes Gomez fecked up, but its kind of understandable why he fecked up. You can understand why he would believe a free kick had been awarded. I can't say the whole debacle is his fault when others ( including United players ) came to the same conclusion.

My point is that the person who SHOULD get all the blame is the linesman. He clearly saw the handball and made no effort to tell the referee what he'd seen.

When he realised what the mistake was he tried to correct it by then raising his flag and telling the ref about the handball, but by that time the ref had allowed the goal and he couldnt retrospectively award the free kick.

The lineman wasn't correcting anything. Whats the point in raising the flag for handball when Gomez clearly had the ball in his possession? He raised the flag, not to correct a mistake but because he was surrounded by Spurs players protesting that the Referee had awarded a free kick, which in fact he hadn't.

So in your eyes Gomez, who awards himself a free kick, several yards from the Nani handball is blame free. You couldn't make this up.

 

[Sir A1ex]

Can't believe there are 8 pages on this. Shows how even the most deranged commentator like Champion can whip up a controversy by talking crap!

Also, how everybody always likes to see Spurs play the victim. We should have just poisened their pasta...

 

[redhoop]

Right lets put this in timeline order.


Nani handles ball - Free kick should be awarded. Linesman sees it but doesn't flag.

Goalie thinks free kick has been given. - so puts ball on floor

Nani gets up, realises play is still going on so shoots and scores - Still no flag from the linesman.

Spurs players complain - Linesman THEN decides to flag

The actual penalty shout is irrelevant in all of it. The ref had not awarded the penalty so the first offence committed is Nani handling the ball.

The linesman has seen it but makes no effort to notify the referee. He makes the fatal assumption that the ref had seen it.

The linesman is to blame for the free kick not being given. Which then led to Gomez' mistake.

But the ultimate blame for that free kick not being given lies with the linesman.

Everything before and after is irrelevant.[/QUOTE

In terms of the game, it's an offence if the referee says it's an offence. If the 'pen' is irrelevant then so is the 'handball' which he did not signal. So, play continues.

As to the linesman, you are making assumptions. You could be right; you could be wrong. Maybe he didn't think it was worth flagging for or not deliberate or didn't see it or any number of other maybes. You can' speak for him - his flag does that. The flag that he most certainly didn't raise at the time of the 'offence'.