The Mourinho Thread: Should he stay or go? | Sacked

[C'est Moi Cantona]

Imagine the fallout if the lot from down the East Lancs won it?

Of Course, that's going to be a big stick to beat Jose with all season if they keep this up, especially if we see ourselves disappearing into the wilderness behind them.

People can accept the sole-less City doing us over (for now), but Liverpool doing it, well that'll be a totally different set of emotions..

 

[Suedesi]

Is it a coincidence that every player we bought or had before Mourinho's arrival went down in form under JM, except one player, De Gea that technically JM does not coach?!

Is that true though?

 

[Minimalist]

Let's see what happens when he plays Klopp and Guardiola... I blame the players for underperforming more than I blame Jose. He adds Matic, Pogba, Fred to the midfield... adds Alexis to the attack... he shores up the defense last season and allows the second least amount of goals... tries to sign Boateng... brings Shaw back to form... I don't know what more he can do? I still think Lukaku is the weak link, as I felt Rooney was towards the end of his career... brilliant scorers who don't have the technical ability of the rest of the side, so they constantly kill the momentum of the attack with untimely heavy touches. I still think Rafa is a good manager, btw... think of how Pep would look working for Mike Ashley.

Of course you don't know. You seem to think (from this post) all a manager does is sign players.

It's pretty evident a huge issue with this team is how poorly it's coached, particularly our attacking play and that's been clear since day one of Mourinho's reign. Feel free to go and search for all the historical comments on how Mourinho doesn't care for this in his day to day training.

 

[Cloud7]

Will be interesting to read the excuse laden gymnastics if Utd contrive to finish outside of the top 4. City were a wonderful shield for any criticism directed towards Mourinho last year, couldn't be expected to match them, wonder how hard it would be to sell the idea that Arsenal have a better squad than Utd if we somehow finish below or even trail them for long periods this season.

Oh don’t worry, if there’s one thing the cult of Mourinho are world class at its tearing down any and everyone to defend their lord and master.

We’ll be hearing that Xhaka is more consistent than Pogba, how José has to work with Sanchez will arsenal have Mkhitaryan, Martial isn’t fit to lace Welbeck’s boots etc etc

 

[FootyGirl88]

There was a lot of problems regards transfers - a lot of differing opinions. He was unahppy at losing Gundogan, Hummels and Mkhi in one summer, even though he was ok with losing 2 of the 3, he seemed assured that Mkhi would be allowed to run down his contract with us, but of course, when Utd offered a good fee for him, he was allowed to leave. So he was unhappy with that. And then Tuchel wanted money invested on players already at their prime and ready for the first team. But Dortmund wanted to go down the route of buying young players to develop. So there was a lot of discontent and unrest over that. In the end there was a compromise - he got some more experienced players and the team also bought young players. It sort of ended up really causing a big inbalance in the squad.

He had big problems with our the head scout Sven Mislintant (now at Arsenal) to the extent he banished him from the training ground. There was the big fallout over the bus thing too, where our CEO Aki Watzke basically accused him of lying to the press, saying that he'd not been communicated with regards the postponement and rescheduling of the game, when indeed he had been spoken with. Just in the end there was so much distrust amongst him, Zorc and Watzke and those within the club, that his position became untenable. Few fallouts with senior player too didn't help.

How he'd do with United squad? He is a perfectionist and very controlling, which means he wants full control of every movement the team makes. When it works it's great, when it doesn't, it's not. He is very demanding, and wants to be at the very top, and to work with the best players. He'd get plenty out of your players I am sure - especially the forwards - his problem for me is longevity at clubs, be interesting to see how long he lasts at PSG.

Omg at the bolded did he really??
I don't know why but i find that so funny, imagine doing that.

Yeah I can't imagine he was happy at loosing Mhiki, gundogan and hummels. He was probably right at wanting more experienced players considering you had just lost 3 highly experienced players.

I think he would do well with our forwards too although I'm not sure what he'd make of Lukaku. But Martial and Rashford I can see him whipping them into shape, our team serverly lacks any form of synchronisation especially in the final third. Whereas with his team this is something I found pleasing whenever I watched Dortmund play.

He only signed a 2 year deal at PSG so anything longer would be based on how well he does in CL I assume.

 

[Sentient Meat]

Of course you don't know. You seem to think (from this post) all a manager does is sign players.

It's pretty evident a huge issue with this team is how poorly it's coached, particularly our attacking play and that's been clear since day one of Mourinho's reign. Feel free to go and search for all the historical comments on how Mourinho doesn't care for this in his day to day training.

He cobbled a decent defense last season using makeshift parts like Valencia and Young, got us to second... he fixed the problem with the center backs this season by placing Fellaini in front of them. He's constantly rotated the players up front to give the opposing teams different looks and overall the team has created a decent amount of shots and chances. My only criticism might be that by rotating players so much, that they don't get a chance to build a stable working relationship and chemistry, but I suppose this is a problem with a team full of stars, where you want to keep individuals happy and motivated while also looking after the interest of the club. As I said I'd like to see how we do against City, Liverpool, Chelsea, Arsenal before I write him off... if he takes 9 points off those four then all of a sudden he becomes the Special One again.

 

[fellaini's barber]

What will end up happening is that Mourinho will leave for another club and end up winning the league. We will get a new manager who will replace half the team like LVG and Mou have done, we won’t win the PL for another 3 seasons and everyone will be calling for that manager to be replaced. Rinse and repeat.

This is just pure nonsense

 

[Giggsyking]

I think Liverpool winning the league will be the worst thing that will happen to the club after the plane crash and SAF retirement.

 

[Dante]

Aren't options 2 and 3 effectively the same?

In that light, the split is much closer to 50-50.

 

[Amir]

As I said I'd like to see how we do against City, Liverpool, Chelsea, Arsenal before I write him off... if he takes 9 points off those four then all of a sudden he becomes the Special One again.

Not if by the time it happens we are so far behind it doesn't mean anything for any possible title battle.

 

[fellaini's barber]

I like the 3 pm kickoff, because they mean a nice 10 am game for me. But..........I went looking for the game on tv yesterday, and it wasn't there!
For a while I assumed the games were on stream because the sources wanted all the Man Utd fans to buy in, now I think we're just has-beens. Watching a bit of Arsenal today, where they had wing players zipping up and down the field...kind of wish we'd bought one of those. (or 2)

Dude we have players who can zip up and down anywhere if our attack was set up for zipping up and down. Watch us man, its sickening, you never see our wingers running into space to receive a through ball, our wingers ALWAYS receive the ball from the left/right back while backing the opposition goal with all the defenders behind them, so they either have to do a Neymar turn around and skip past 3 defenders or do what we always do, cut inside and square pass backwards or sideways. Or worse still deliver our vintage shit crosses. Look how many times the Wolves winger has the ball released to him on the fly, gave Luke Shaw all sorts of problems, we NEVER do that. Our wingers never get the ball on the run in front of them, it's constantly getting the ball while backing the opposition. To make things worse, the left and right backs won't make runs forward to create space for the wingers, they just stand there till the winger eventually gives the ball back to them.

Our woeful wingplay is the main reason I want Jose gone because in his 3 years here I haven't seen anything to suggest that we even do anything training in this aspect. With Liverpool the plan is to release Mane or Salah as soon as they get the ball. As soon as a defender or midfielder has the ball, the wingers are sprinting and the ball is sent to them on the fly, the whole team is in on it. With City you see the wingers working brilliantly with the wingbacks and midfielders, working the defense till they create enough space to release to release someone who then delivers a simple cut back or cross, or pretty much walk into the opposition box time and time again, whole team involved. But us? We just fecking pass the ball round and round, you can see how clueless we get when the ball finally gets to Sanchez or Valencia in the final third, at that point its pretty much make something up on your own. Sanchez of course either runs into traffic, delivers a hopeful cross, or pass backwards or sideways. Valencia, oh lord, does his shimmy thing, passes it backwards or sideways, or delivers an even worse cross.

While we have some players who are clearly not United standard in this team, coaching, or lack of it, is the biggest problem we have right now. Especially in attack.

 

[Stubble]

Dude we have players who can zip up and down anywhere if our attack was set up for zipping up and down. Watch us man, its sickening, you never see our wingers running into space to receive a through ball, our wingers ALWAYS receive the ball from the left/right back while backing the opposition goal with all the defenders behind them, so they either have to do a Neymar turn around and skip past 3 defenders or do what we always do, cut inside and square pass backwards or sideways. Or worse still deliver our vintage shit crosses. Look how many times the Wolves winger has the ball released to him on the fly, gave Luke Shaw all sorts of problems, we NEVER do that. Our wingers never get the ball on the run in front of them, it's constantly getting the ball while backing the opposition. To make things worse, the left and right backs won't make runs forward to create space for the wingers, they just stand there till the winger eventually gives the ball back to them.

Our woeful wingplay is the main reason I want Jose gone because in his 3 years here I haven't seen anything to suggest that we even do anything training in this aspect. With Liverpool the plan is to release Mane or Salah as soon as they get the ball. As soon as a defender or midfielder has the ball, the wingers are sprinting and the ball is sent to them on the fly, the whole team is in on it. With City you see the wingers working brilliantly with the wingbacks and midfielders, working the defense till they create enough space to release to release someone who then delivers a simple cut back or cross, or pretty much walk into the opposition box time and time again, whole team involved. But us? We just fecking pass the ball round and round, you can see how clueless we get when the ball finally gets to Sanchez or Valencia in the final third, at that point its pretty much make something up on your own. Sanchez of course either runs into traffic, delivers a hopeful cross, or pass backwards or sideways. Valencia, oh lord, does his shimmy thing, passes it backwards or sideways, or delivers an even worse cross.

While we have some players who are clearly not United standard in this team, coaching, or lack of it, is the biggest problem we have right now. Especially in attack.

Spot on post !
This is exactly why players like Lukaku, Sanchez, Martial and Rashford look poor half the time in this team and would be tearing it up elsewhere. I don't buy the Sanchez is suddenly past it and crap either he was devastating on the break at Arsenal but we just don't play like that so he's expected to make something from nothing when teams have regained their defensive shape and inevitably runs into traffic all the time (much like Martial ). Lukaku was great on the break for Everton running onto balls with his speed and power this was his main attribute - we never see that for us - was potty to buy him if we won't play to his strengths. When we do break the support is usually not there as it is so unusual. Players don't make runs either negating some of Pogba's and Fred's main attributes as great passers of the ball.
Valencia has to be replaced our right side is non-existent, young Dalot showed what we should be expecting on that side but as Jose prioritises defensive attributes i can't see him taking over anytime soon .
I don't buy this we can't attack because the defense is crap either. Thats a myth Jose would love us to believe to justify his tactics. I don't think Liverpool etc have a better defense but as they are always on the front foot it isn't tested to the extent we are. Attack is always the best form of defence.
All this is coaching/tactics and will only change when Jose is gone and our main emphasis isn't thinking about our defensive shape all the time. This team could be 100% better (and 1000% better to watch)!

 

[LolYo]

Spot on post !
This is exactly why players like Lukaku, Sanchez, Martial and Rashford look poor half the time in this team and would be tearing it up elsewhere. I don't buy the Sanchez is suddenly past it and crap either he was devastating on the break at Arsenal but we just don't play like that so he's expected to make something from nothing when teams have regained their defensive shape and inevitably runs into traffic all the time (much like Martial ). Lukaku was great on the break for Everton running onto balls with his speed and power this was his main attribute - we never see that for us. When we do break the support is usually not there as it is so unusual. Players don't make runs either negating some of Pogba's and Fred's main attributes as great passers of the ball.
Valencia has to be replaced our right side is non-existent, young Dalot showed what we should be expecting on that side but as Jose prioritises defensive attributes i can't see him taking over anytime soon .
I don't buy this we can't attack because the defense is crap either. Thats a myth Jose would love us to believe to justify his tactics. I don't think Liverpool etc have a better defense but as they are always on the front foot it isn't tested to the extent we are.
All this is coaching/tactics and will only change when Jose is gone and our main emphasis isn't defensive shape all the time. This team could be 100% better (and 1000% better to watch)!

Couldnt agree more.
We have amazing players but a horrible manager.

 

[L1nk]

Unai Emery has kicked on at Arsenal, Sarri has started well at Chelsea, all without having a squad of their own players and you already see the effects the likes of Sarri is having on Chelsea. 2 years on, it's Mourinho's squad, we got Arsenal's best player and yet somehow we are worse off at this early stage in the season than we were in the last and the team has no clue how to play. If this doesn't convince people Mourinho needs to go I don't know what will.

 

[steffyr2]

I am all for giving him time, but his persistence of playing the focal point approach with Lukaku is wearing thin.

Right now, its either:
Persist with Lukaku - Out
Drop him (Not Fellaini as replacement) - give him more time

Couldnt agree more.
We have amazing players but a horrible manager.

Where are the amazing players? Those must be some really detailed instructions from Mourinho to make them look so useless. He must be cleverly trying to lose!

 

[MU_Sid]

Where are the amazing players? Those must be some really detailed instructions from Mourinho to make them look so useless. He must be cleverly trying to lose!

Realistically, which managers do you think are better than JM? Pep, Klopp, Zidane? Leave these 3 out and tell me who has is out there who can take us to the next level? The simple fact is that both City and Liverpool have invested HEAVILY in their squads, maybe more than we have. Part of the problem is that our investments although significant haven't been successful and that's why we are suffering. I have every confidence in our manager than in the next couple of windows we will reach where we want to be but patience is required. Yes, we're below City and Pool at the moment but we can't just throw our toys out of the pram and start sacking managers. Klopp and Pep have been significantly well supported by their clubs, in that they have had better scouting and recruitment than us. Yes, their managers will take some of the credit but it's not all on JM that some of the purchases during his time have not settled in well. You also have to remember that it's far more difficult to settle in a struggling team where every new player is looked upon as the deliverer rather than a settled team like City or Pool. Just look at Mahrez, he's been so sparingly used, kept fresh and unleashed against oppositions that suit him. Plus he has to up his game to even get into the team. That's how integration works. At United, Sanchez came in and was straight into the team.

Also, I thought the team played really well during the Wolves game but our goal scoring opportunities just didn't click.

My 2 cents.

 

[FootyGirl88]

Where are the amazing players? Those must be some really detailed instructions from Mourinho to make them look so useless. He must be cleverly trying to lose!

Pogba, Martial, Shaw, Pereira, Bailly, Matic are very good players.

Don't be fooled into thinking because we have been playing poorly that we have bad players.

 

[wolvored]

But they actually have less money, their net worth is inferior. Also Gazprom owns Zenit, Exor owns Juventus, QTA owns PSG and the list goes on, they all not only have bigger assets but also far bigger net worth.

Im only quoting the paper perhaps they got it wrong or perhaps they referred to owners in this country. I didnt go into much depth with it.

 

[Cassidy]

Where are the amazing players? Those must be some really detailed instructions from Mourinho to make them look so useless. He must be cleverly trying to lose!

Or lack of instructions

 

[wolvored]

He hasn’t managed in France or Germany yet so probably a club in Bundesliga or Ligue 1. Who knows.




I am not defending him, my post is more aimed at the running of this club.

Because Moyes was a complete failure I think the mindset of the owners and/or Woody has changed and they think the best way forward is the Real Madrid model.They think the name of the club, the big wages offered and the top manager we can get in world football will attract the best players, 'galacticos' and we will rule the world. Trouble is none of it is working. The 2 managers since are dinosaurs in regards how the game has moved on and this is showing on the pitch and with most of the players bought in. Hopefully they learn their lesson when they look at the next manager and change tack, but i wont hold my breath.

 

[Greek9]

When he leaves and the next manager tries attacking football with this bunch or even a few more signings and fails miserably, the chaos in here haha, the squad needs complete overhaul, there is no way some savior will come and challenge City,Pool at their own game without spending a fortune and even then it will need many years and even then it will be a big risk and it's not even possible since this club and its fans don't like to give their coach much time as it seems.

Recent history proves otherwise, the last 2 coaches failed, and according to the fans the current one is failing too, therefore it's the set of players that's at fault, Zidane or whoever comes won't magically fix everything like some delusional fans think in here, even if he spends big there is a high chance he will do way worse than jose since the chances of backfiring when playing attacking football are higher than when playing it 'safe'.

In other words this club is doomed for the next few years either way unless Jose does his thing this season which i believe he can, one major trophy it is.

 

[Judas]

Certain parts of the squad need an overhaul, but i don't buy the complete overhaul bollocks at all. I decent manager should be getting better out of our current players, it's as simple as that.

 

[FootyGirl88]

Certain parts of the squad need an overhaul, but i don't buy the complete overhaul bollocks at all. I decent manager should be getting better out of our current players, it's as simple as that.

Only defense needs real investment

 

[SteveW]

I find it hilarious that some people have now decided all the players simultaneously have turned crap. Martial, Rashford, Sanchez are all crap now. What's the common denominator?

I long for the day Jose is moved on. He won't be missed.

 

[Greek9]

Certain parts of the squad need an overhaul, but i don't buy the complete overhaul bollocks at all. I decent manager should be getting better out of our current players, it's as simple as that.

It is not, it is the only club Jose hasn't won a major trophy at yet, in all his previous clubs be it money giants or smaller clubs like Porto he did it, if he can't do it only here and if the previous two coaches failed too, then its quite clear that this set of players is simply put BAD, Only few cut it, the rest either are upcoming young talents or aging players or just plain bad, all that in combination with the fact that the manager doesn't get everything he wants, which again says that the next one won't either which proves furthermore the possibility of him failing.

 

[Greek9]

I find it hilarious that some people have now decided all the players simultaneously have turned crap. Martial, Rashford, Sanchez are all crap now. What's the common denominator?

I long for the day Jose is moved on. He won't be missed.

Were the common denominators Lvg and Moyes too? I find it quite hilarious that some people have now decided that Zidane will come in and magically play entertaining football and win things with this bunch, if not flat out stupid.

 

[Dr. StrangeHate]

Thing is that this is what Mourinho is doing, and people can't stop complaining. It's possible to win with the academy players if you have Paul Scholes, Roy Keane and Ryan Giggs as the basis of your team -- oh and can spend world record amounts on Rio and Rooney and Ronaldo besides. (Still it took a few years to win the league with that restart. )

Well Utd let the tank run down and then they went out and spent lots of money for names. Now we have a team of a few standout veterans and a bunch of inexperience. You see that in every game.

Mourinho asked for some experienced players and didn't get them. Would have been nice to have them today.

I am sorry, did you just say that Jose is playing attractive attacking football?

Can you please tell me what you are on, I really need it.

 

[Judas]

It is not, it is the only club Jose hasn't won a major trophy at yet, in all his previous clubs be it money giants or smaller clubs like Porto he did it, if he can't do it only here and if the previous two coaches failed too, then its quite clear that this set of players is simply put BAD, Only few cut it, the rest either are upcoming young talents or aging players or just plain bad, all that in combination with the fact that the manager doesn't get everything he wants, which again says that the next one won't either which proves furthermore the possibility of him failing.

Utter nonsense. One of the funniest Jose apologist posts I've seen in awhile.

 

[gica_7]

Our game never seems to evolve. I could have watched any random game over the last 2 years and it would be exactly the same script of the Wolves game. Couldn't tell any difference. Our attackers seem out of ideas. Especially in the last 10 minutes it is so easy to defend because all that we do is to get into positions to cross. It is so predictable and easy to defend.

It must be tiring for the players too.

 

[Wednesday at Stoke]

I think its fair to say we've stagnated now. Time to move on.

 

[FootyGirl88]

Were the common denominators Lvg and Moyes too? I find it quite hilarious that some people have now decided that Zidane will come in and magically play entertaining football and win things with this bunch, if not flat out stupid.

Well yes - Moyes and LVG were not known for having a good brand of football

 

[OnlyTwoDaSilvas]

Unai Emery has kicked on at Arsenal, Sarri has started well at Chelsea, all without having a squad of their own players and you already see the effects the likes of Sarri is having on Chelsea. 2 years on, it's Mourinho's squad, we got Arsenal's best player and yet somehow we are worse off at this early stage in the season than we were in the last and the team has no clue how to play. If this doesn't convince people Mourinho needs to go I don't know what will.

It's something Chelsea always seem annoyingly good at. Ancelotti won the league in his first season. Conte won the league in his first season after cleaning up the mess left behind by Jose. I don't think Chelsea will win the league, but they've started a lot better than many expected, considering they were quite poor last season, and they're playing with some sort of identity. They seem capable of drawing a line under poor seasons, and kicking on.

For some reason, we have it in our heads that a transitional period will take United few seasons, and a new manager will need much more time than managers at other clubs do, whilst buying his own squad of 22, and only then can he be evaluated. Moyes called for more time despite having a title winning team. Van Gaal said it would take several months to get the team playing possession football, which never really happened in an effective way over 2 seasons, and he seemed to abandon it half way into season 2. Mourinho said it would have been easier to buy a whole new squad than to reverse Van Gaal's methods.

I'm not quite 100% anti-Mourinho, but it's a whole lot of excuses from 3 managers post-Fergie. Excuses which I don't remember hearing from Sarri or Emery when they took over recently. 3 seasons and several transfer windows in and there has not been enough of an improvement. It's better than under Van Gaal, and I was very positive after season 1 with a league cup and a Europa League, but overall it's not good enough considering the investment made and the improvement of our rivals.

I'd be massively shocked if United pulled the plug on a manager at this stage of a season though. I can't see it.

 

[Janson]

Martial should not be leading the line by himself playing a target man role like we try with Lukaku - forget the simplicity of actually playing him as the LF next to a RF - I see the guy has the potential to play as a False 9 who technically play away from the CB's with the ability to take them on or initiate little passes. You see the little flick he did for Lukaku's chance?

You remember the flick & pass he did for that Lingard goal vs arsenal

I think he can do that - helping him be in the centre and helping Rashford & Lukaku play as strikers at angles just wide off him; not wingers. Even Sanchez looks like he needs any one of these roles.

Martial is better at getting out of tight Central paces with quick instinctive play than actually having all the time in the world to get the best out of one fullback already at his shooting angle blocked & then told to cross. He also likes to take the man if if he has adequately positioned him self first & gives the ball of shortly before making a run rather than making a run willy nilly as a striker like Rashford does.


Defensively whilst for some reason he has improved the last 2 games - he also would be better at applying high pressure with his face towards goal rather than asking him to drop back & catch up with the RW he just let go past him.

He can be tbe furthest person forward when we don't have the ball, be the deepest forward we have when we do have the ball.

All of this makes sense, the only problem is that Martial isn't on that level to be even starting for us, regardless of position.

 

[Janson]

Hey guys we found someone who thinks Lindelöf has good games when he doesn't know where the ball is coming from

Don't really care what you say - to sell Daley blind when

A) we need a better ball playing defender
B) we need a better left sided CB
C) he was our best centre defender in partnership with Smalling
D) Jose now uses Fellaini as a third CB that goes up in to midfield - the position blind should have been used

Is just damn stupid & was done to get rid of the Lvg factor from the squad. The same way perisic was wanted to get rid of Martial & Sanchez is now used to do just that.

Yes of course - Pep would have got it right - when he wanted stones he would have at least utilised Blind as a back up not God damn ditching him for Lindelöf & a still stagnant Jones

God damn.

What are you on about? When did I say Lindelöf was good?

Blind was not our best CB at any point, in fact he was garbage at defending. Ball playing but what's the point when he can't defend? Let me guess, you are one of the guys constantly harping on about how good we would be with Blind in midfield. Yeah sure, the LVG favtor.

You have like a hundred posts in here repeating the same thing, trying to find a way how Martial should be played. Perisic was wanted to improve the team. Is it possible that he just might be better than Martial?

Yeah, everything Jose does is a conspiracy against Martial.

 

[hungrywing]

It's something Chelsea always seem annoyingly good at. Ancelotti won the league in his first season. Conte won the league in his first season after cleaning up the mess left behind by Jose. I don't think Chelsea will win the league, but they've started a lot better than many expected, considering they were quite poor last season, and they're playing with some sort of identity. They seem capable of drawing a line under poor seasons, and kicking on.

For some reason, we have it in our heads that a transitional period will take United few seasons, and a new manager will need much more time than managers at other clubs do, whilst buying his own squad of 22, and only then can he be evaluated. Moyes called for more time despite having a title winning team. Van Gaal said it would take several months to get the team playing possession football, which never really happened in an effective way over 2 seasons, and he seemed to abandon it half way into season 2. Mourinho said it would have been easier to buy a whole new squad than to reverse Van Gaal's methods.

I'm not quite 100% anti-Mourinho, but it's a whole lot of excuses from 3 managers post-Fergie. Excuses which I don't remember hearing from Sarri or Emery when they took over recently. 3 seasons and several transfer windows in and there has not been enough of an improvement. It's better than under Van Gaal, and I was very positive after season 1 with a league cup and a Europa League, but overall it's not good enough considering the investment made and the improvement of our rivals.

I'd be massively shocked if United pulled the plug on a manager at this stage of a season though. I can't see it.

The Scholes retirement, plus Nani, Chicharito, Rio, Vidic, Evra, RvP, Rafael (and you could maybe even throw Kagawa in there) all departing within eighteen(?) months made it impossible to ever know if we'd have been able to add a piece at a time to transition in a more stable fashion. Thinking about it even now makes the blood boil.

Facking Moyes/LvG.

 

[Kapardin]

It's something Chelsea always seem annoyingly good at. Ancelotti won the league in his first season. Conte won the league in his first season after cleaning up the mess left behind by Jose. I don't think Chelsea will win the league, but they've started a lot better than many expected, considering they were quite poor last season, and they're playing with some sort of identity. They seem capable of drawing a line under poor seasons, and kicking on.

For some reason, we have it in our heads that a transitional period will take United few seasons, and a new manager will need much more time than managers at other clubs do, whilst buying his own squad of 22, and only then can he be evaluated. Moyes called for more time despite having a title winning team. Van Gaal said it would take several months to get the team playing possession football, which never really happened in an effective way over 2 seasons, and he seemed to abandon it half way into season 2. Mourinho said it would have been easier to buy a whole new squad than to reverse Van Gaal's methods.

I'm not quite 100% anti-Mourinho, but it's a whole lot of excuses from 3 managers post-Fergie. Excuses which I don't remember hearing from Sarri or Emery when they took over recently. 3 seasons and several transfer windows in and there has not been enough of an improvement. It's better than under Van Gaal, and I was very positive after season 1 with a league cup and a Europa League, but overall it's not good enough considering the investment made and the improvement of our rivals.

I'd be massively shocked if United pulled the plug on a manager at this stage of a season though. I can't see it.

Sarri is a master at making excuses, wait till the chips are down for Chelsea.

But you are right on the whole. The reason is because all 3 - Moyes, LvG and Jose - arrived with puffed up egos thinking they would be a success. And all 3 of them are incapable of surviving in such a situation - rebuilding a club while not getting support from a coherent transfer structure (not money, that's there -- support in the form of DoF). Moyes might not be on the same level as the other two, but he was deluded enough to buy into the Chosen One thing and consider himself an elite manager.

Likes of Emery and Sarri are used to merely being head coaches and consulting with the clubs on transfers. So for them, rebuilding is not a major job as they can work with what's given to them, and if the given players aren't up to scratch, they have lots of experience in accommodating players' deficiencies and adapting their systems. Its' the result of working with modest budgets (or lack of authority in the case of Emery's PSG stint) throughout their careers.

Our managers we hired were incompetent for different reasons. Moyes was used to working in similar conditions as Sarri and Emery, but he was a shite manager anyway and it was exposed when we hired him.

With LvG, he had a system, but it was inflexible and he required precisely the right type of player with the right type of mentality each time - an impossible task.

With Jose, despite his experience with Porto, fact is, he is a manager who is used to delivering with ready made signings. And he doesn't really have a system to accommodate poor players and get more out of them; its' all about waiting for the opposition to make mistakes. So, he struggles in this type of job where he has to deal with average players. And it may be due to time or other factors, but his ability to scout and sign quality players that fit his vision perfectly (like Costa and Fabregas signed for Chelsea) has waned, leading him to make errors in the transfer market, or go after his old guard like Matic (and Willian who he wanted).

That is why our next appointment should be smart. I think Jardim would tick all the boxes, but Ed is sure to go for Zidane, who I am happy to see hired, but would still be cautious about.

 

[Janson]

We had better chances in 16/17. We literally missed more big chances than any other team in the league that season. In 17/18 we managed less chances overall and less big chances. Don't hate the facts just because they contradict your personal opinion. Speaking of facts Herrera was literally our player of the year in 16/17, Matic wasn't the following season. None of this is marginalising our 2nd place finish, just explaining why it happened. Attributing it to Matic (when he statistically contributed a loss less than Herrera) is dumb when the evidence clearly shows it was mostly because our attacking players dramatically improved their chance conversation rates.

Re: Blind. No manager would turn Blind into a 'world beater', that wasn't my point and sarcastically pretending it was isn't going to help your argument. The issue is that the CB pairing Mourinho inherited of Blind and Smalling was better than the starting CB partnership we have now despite us spending £60m on CBs. There's no way to spin that that doesn't make Mourinho's team building look extremely questionable especially when it's part of a pattern of him buying new players that perform worse than the players we already had.

I've never heard of "conversation rates" but you're saying that's the only difference between the two seasons? You don't realise how simplistic this view is? You're disregarding every other aspect in which we might have been different.

You're basing your argument about Herrera being better because he had more tackles, I don't know what more to say to that.

Blind being better than anything we have now is your opinion, doesn't make it fact. Imo, we wouldn't be any better or worse of with him.

 

[Janson]

Making tackles is actually an important thing for a defensive midfielder to do. Herrera making a lot of them is one of the reasons why he was our player of the year in 16/17, the only player not called De Gea to have won that award in the post-Ferguson era.

Most important thing for a DM is positional awareness, and Herrera is the definition of a headless chicken. Why do you think he was instanly replaced if he was poty? Have you ever heard of any manager replacing his best player like this?

Player of the year voted by the fans, I rest my case.

 

[JoaquinJoaquin]

I think its fair to say we've stagnated now. Time to move on.

This. I like Mourinho and really wanted him to be a success here, but it is safe to say now we will never win the league while he is in charge. Problem for me is that I don't think Zidane is the right guy either.

 

[OldTrevil]

Three seasons in, we should either be seeing a clear vision of the football Jose is looking to instill or have some significant trophies in the cabinet. We have neither. Instead the football is disorganized and when we have to chase a game we lump hopeless long balls to Fellaini with a success rate reminiscent that of Moyes against Fulham. I like to give managers time and I gave Jose the benefit of doubt for so long even though they were signs of things not going well and his terrible man management rearing its head. In reality the Sevilla game was the turning point for me but the second place finish somewhat papered over the cracks and gave slight hope that he could turn things around come this season. There is no way that most of our outfield players are terrible to need cowardly negative and route one football. I hope Ed doesn't make the same mistake of waiting too long until the season is unsalvageable to act.