The levels of delusion are off the charts.The Mourinho Thread: Should he stay or go? | Sacked
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The levels of delusion are off the charts.That's not my point though.
My point is that Zlatan still wouldn't get United where they want to be, and thus still reflects badly on Mourinho. Like I said, compare Zlatan's supporting cast from 2017 to 2019 season. Our CB situation was better than and our defense overall was better in 2017. Matic is pretty much useless this season so it's not like the midfield this year is better than the midfield of 2017. Actually, the one way you can argue the team is better is through Pogba and Martial. Both of which have nothing to do with Mourinho.
el3mel, come on man. You've said in the past you want Mourinho gone, so I have no idea why you're saying things like this. It's like you're accepting he should go, but at the same time are reluctant to truly believe in that opinion. Saying nobody has said that is just not being honest.
Someone has at least spotted your tactful Martial deflection. Ok why did he bench our second best player for almost a year? Or you'll reply with 'DDG is our second best player,nice try though'. You keep leaving out Bailly and Lindelöf and just keep listing everyone else and calling them shit. A defense that was solid under LVG plus $80m is now supposed to be 8th? You notice how the whole Manchester United is now having a DIP IN FORM? Even DDG is having a DIP now, maybe he's just as shit as Valencia,Smalling and Young and needs to be sold too. It's also hilarious how you're focused on calling our defenders shit as if our attack and midfield are any good. You've cited Valencia and Young severally as if that's our whole defense when both play the same position. You of course keep leaving leave out Shaw and the two CB's he bought who still gets benched by all the shit players you mentioned like Smalling etc. By all accounts it's still more CB's he wants, not Valencia and Young replacements which you keep harping on about. All the so called shit players he inherited are all looking like they are replacing the new ones he bought in every position to replace them except Pogba. Now we need new players to replace the CB's he bought,not Young and Valencia,Rojo or Jones, it's Bailly and Lindelöf that need replacement. Sanchez who was Mkhi's replacement has already been replaced by Martial, Lukaku and Fred are now bench players, he's still persisting with Matic to the detriment of the team like he did with Sanchez, and when he comes to his senses will finally bench him for Herrera or Perreira. Looks like all the so called shit players he inherited are doing better than most of his replacements,disgraceful
If that's the case, that should be on Woodward not Mourinho. There's so much a manager can do with such a limited team even with Zlatan in the team.
The reason why I was confused is because the two are linked. If a player performs well, the player is worth what we paid for him. If the player is awful, then Woodward overpaid.
There are ways to judge the value separate of this, but that must be done on a case by case basis as the leverage of each deal is different from one another.
Not really. As I said, Mourinho has nothing to do with Martial for example. He wanted Martial gone and he's someone that was brought to United before Mou was here. Martial is in fine form which has nothing to do with Mourinho. In other words, if not for Woodward in the case of Martial, Mourinho would be left with an even worse team and results.
I don't like pushing narratives. That's my problem.
It alwas goes this way :
A: I think Ed fecked up last summer.
B: So you think that he wasn't backed because he didn't get a CB ?
A: Toby would have been a great addition to our defense though. We needed a leader.
B: So you think that a CB would have solved all our problems ? Mourinho cult, get out.
I think Mourinho time is up by end of season, and we will need to move on, but barely anyone says he's blameless. Most of us just criticze other things in the club beside him. That's it.
@cheeky_backheel already has that covered in advance, if they're shit they'll all be Jose's 4th choice on his list of prefered targets
Why ignore part where we established Morata was clearly a second choice target for both teams? If Lukaku would have chose Chelsea they would have paid the same amount as United, and united would have paid the same amount for Morata. The delta in price between Lukaku and Morata is an extremely weak argument.
This has nothing to do with our individual opinions. I'm talking about the consensus at the time. Responding with "Well I thought he wasn't very good" isn't an answer to the question I asked. Let's try this again.
In the summer of 17/18, was the consensus Lukaku was a bad signing and/or United paid too much? <--- this is the question
(Andy Carroll is a prime example of a player most people thought was overpriced immediately when he signed)
Straw man argument. The point was to outline how their situations were different and why they were purchased for less. All my reasons weren't about the positions they played. Also I posted the link so I obviously included those players for reference.
Look at the poll. Is it not reasonable to conclude that most were happy with Lukaku?
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/rom...subject-to-medical-and-personal-terms.412308/
Is this a serious question? It's a Mourinho signing b/c he wanted him (which is common knowledge). Mourinho obviously disagreed with you and thought Lukaku was good enough.
Whaaaaaaaaaaaat?
Come on. Now you are just flat out denying easily provable facts. Yet you take offense at being labelled a cultist. With five minutes of searching in this thread only I could easily find examples of people saying exactly that, as far back as in August and as recently as in the last week.
Well done @Siorac, those 3 mentalists need to have their bullshit called out.
Now the excuse is "Woodward makes the deals, so it's his fault if the signing is a flop b/c he signed off on it". This is the excuse of all excuses b/c it complete absolves Mourinho from any bad signing he makes, while allowing his supporters to argue he wasn't backed. This circular argument allows his defenders to ignore any reasons why he may be at fault, while giving the false impression they are making good points. If it wasn't so annoying, I might find it clever lol.
The word is the plan is for the manager to stay until the end of his contract (which is 2020 if I'm not mistaken?)
Lets hope the board have realised their mistake and will now back the manager in all senses.
We can look for potential new managers in the next 18 months, it would be negligent not to do so. But we must allow the manager the time and resources to have a succesul end to 18/19 and a good 19/20 season where we can start laying foundations.
Lets hope the board have realised their mistake and will now back the manager in all senses.
We can look for potential new managers in the next 18 months, it would be negligent not to do so. But we must allow the manager the time and resources to have a succesul end to 18/19 and a good 19/20 season where we can start laying foundations.
Because it was obvious and clear from day 1 that Martial has no long term role in a traditional Jose team.
Whether that be due to his attacking ability or defensive ability is not important - it's the fact that from day one martial was meant to be replaced by Perisic.
Historically Jose has played with one traditional winger like perisic & one inverted fprward or winger - during this time we were consistently linked to bale the RW with the inverted attack on his left foot.
What happened when we got Sanchez? Martial was replaced for a like for like inverted right footed inverted forward with much more tenacity & defensive ability. To add to this - perisic would play no such role in such a team & what A traditional Jose team would then need is a right winger who kept his width. What happened? Jose at that point doesn't want any other RW but willian - a RW that gives width on the other side to the inverted forward in Sanchez.
We go back & Sanchez is instantly used as a way of dropping Martial in good goal scoring form. Whilst we didn't have a single RW in form for 5 years - Sanchez is bought in as a direct like for like replacement of Martial & this was shown in the tactics. What does Jose do to martial during this time - brings him on as a RW which is arguably his weakest position & then uses that performance as a utilisation of reasons to drop him.
Martial is only really bought back because it is clear that Sanchez the LW Jose was looking for to overtake Martial is clearly not going to show up & if Jose continues to show clear favouritism of players like Lukaku, Matic & Sanchez - then the guy is going to lose his job.
What does Woodward do?
Woodward notices this & forces Jose to continue to use the likes of Martial & Rashford as fundamental aspects of the first team - forcing Jose to use the likes of Sanchez, Martial, Rashford & Lukaku in a cohesive attacking team - something that is easy to organise for any fan or manager with attacking intent but absolutely impossible for a Jose team, a Jose fan and for Jose himself.
Sanchez the LW is a Jose signing for this reason. If Sanchez was a RW for us consistently more than his damn 2 games there - we could argue about how he was an Woodward signing but he is clearly a LW with favouritism of Jose. Unluckily for both Sanchez & Jose - the media were magnificent in targeting Sanchez from the off so every performance was scrutinised.
This wasnt the case for Lukaku - so he gave him a free time in the first team irrespective of performances & form until the media & the fans started questioning Lukaku a bit more.
Then Jose drops him.
Matic has yet to be questioned to the extent that Lukaku & Sanchez have - so he continues to be a fundamental part of our tactics.
The best thing the fans of United can do now is raise their concern over the use of Matic as a way of getting time for players like pereira or Herrera or Fred. Not going to happen until then.
And @cheeky_backheel & the other Jose cohort - the favouritism of players like Sanchez, Lukaku, Matic in being a part of a team of United irrespective of form or performance is a direct representation that these players are Jose players & not Woodward or anyone else.
Players like martial, Shaw, Rashford, pereira, Herrera, mata etc etc - have all had to 'prove' themselves to Jose & no one has admitted that more openly than Jose himself. Pure favourites in the squad vs players that start on the backdoor of development.
Ie players of Jose vs players of United.
If you continue to believe that Woodward is the problem around the players - Woodward players are better than Jose's & 70% of the fans would want to see the likes of martial & Rashford alongside players like pereira in the team than Lukaku upfront by himself with Matic doing sh*te all.
Literally proof cannot get any stronger that these players are Jose players & these are the ones that continue to let us down.
You really are having a nightmare on there Cheeky
Morata was indeed the alternative, but he was the 1st choice quite clearly for Jose. If folks care to rewind and look at the timeline of events. Jose spoke of his admiration of Morata publicly on the US Tour, Real refused to do business with us after a certain fax machine "incident" previously
When quite clearly we couldn't get Morata and Chelsea swooped in, Lukaku was announced within days, remember the videos of Pogba and himself in LA and he announced it to him?
But to address your constant posts about Ed dictating the price. Whilst there is an air of truth about that sentiment, there are mitigating factors of course. I mean it was Jose who demanded Pogba as an example, again he spoke openly about having to have Pogba as he was the best midfielder of his kind and would prove to be the worlds best player in the years ahead. In that instance, Woody is left with 2 options... pay and pay over the odds after a manager speaks so forthright about having to have Pogba, the ball is in Juve's court in that instance and they dictate play. Or, simply don't do the transfer... and then we get folks saying Jose isn't being backed.
Whilst I agree, Lukaku was never worth the 75m we coughed up when we are looking to sign one of the Premier Leagues more consistent forwards from a rival club you can expect to pay over the odds. Morata, like most of the other names you drop above all came from overseas and generally speaking when you are buying from overseas you won't have to spend as much to get your man.
Reading over your sentiments, any negative you can attach to the argument is solely Woodwards fault. If the transfer works out you heap praise on Jose and ignore the board room who got the transfer done.
All these pretty much talk about last summer alone. Still at my point. You didn't prove any wrong. They are saying he wasn't backed in this summer.
No one has said he wasn't backed in general, or since he arrived, which get forced as a replay when we say last summer was failure.
Mourinho is pulling that Kevin Durant Twitter crap on Caf i see.
You are bringing back LVG?!
Why are you quoting me?
Because you said he wasn't backed. el3mel denied anyone having said that, even though the exact phrase was and is everywhere on the Caf.
This summer he wasn't. I think that's obvious, isn't it?
Can't believe you're calling @el3mel a cultist too. Seems so you don't read his posts much.
You're taking a more balanced position but there's really no need to try and rationalise the logic or excuses from other mourinho supporters. They don't represent you nor you them. Some of them have had a mare the last few pages and it's better to distance one's self altogether
Jesus this is like in a kindergarten, cultists vs bashers. And people who want him gone being called cultists cause they don't go all nuts over Jose.
For all those banging on about this sentiment of last summer and not being backed, look.. it happens from time to time at clubs. There isn't a manager in world football that obtains all their targets all the time.
Fergie came into United in 86 and told Edwards he wanted 13 new players immediately. Read up on it from his Biography. Did that happen? Nope. Fergie wanted Batistuta in 97-98, didn't get him and had to settle for Yorke.... remember how that turned out? He wanted Lucas Moura, Hazard and countless other examples. He didn't always get his man.
Fact is in the summer just gone Woody made better footballing decisions than Jose did. Jose has wanted rid of Shaw and Martial for at least a year or longer now and thank the heavens he saw more sense than Jose and kept both and in the latter case its Martial now keeping Jose in a job, the irony! Course Jose is now demanded Martial be kept and given a new deal.
Now if your going to say he should of got Perisic as well and Willian, Martial has been more effective than both as he's involved in goals more consistently then either per mins. Toby whilst being a reliable CB hasn't been anything close to his best form this season for Spurs. We are also looking at an extremely short life span for both Willian & Toby, considering the fall off in performance of both Matic and Sanchez this year, I'm sure alarm bells were ringing for Woodward and thinking they aren't sensible investments. As for the nonsense surrounding Maguire and his price tag, thank Christ we didn't follow through with that as well!
We've an element within our fan base that simply want us to spend for spending's sake. I'd prefer we invest in the right player cause we're going round in circles with Jose's investments at this point. Some are sold, some are benched at best and some simply are awful and play consistently regardless cause he has his favourites and none of this is his fault it seems.
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First, let me see if I get your logic right - it is ok to pay 25%-50% more cos a player is your first choice target, even if the quality difference to the second choice is marginal?
There is no consensus on who was our first choice given we were negotiating with Madrid for Morata, and only signed Lukaku when he became available for less than what Madrid was asking for Morata. If you think United would have paid 60m for Morata when Madrid had decline same offer, then you must be living in a different time continum.
and how was this consensus reached?
Make up your mind - if you wanted them included then why ask why they were listed, and it not a straw man when they were brought into the conversation by yourself
and? cos I still dont see the relevance
At no point have I said Mourinho did not want Lukaku (only that he is not responsible for the 75-90m paid), so have no idea where you got the basis for your earlier accusation
Tbh with you I don't like the aggressive way people take this discussion on manager and Ed. There's a sense of hostility there on things that are actually not that important. I don't find any reason forbashing some one opinion. Cultiest, bashers, spoilt childern ..etc. No reason for all this if you ask me.
Wilian was in a position we needed and a consistent performer for Mourinho.
You've basically said that Jose came in, wanted to build his team his way and Woodward didn't let him, forcing him to do it another way. Then you ask why Woodward should have any blame.
You don't bring a manager like mourinho with proven methods his way, even if it is ugly, and then tell him to do things differently. For fecksake that's wrong on so many levels.
Source?
Either way, he's gone end of the season. It will take a minor miracle for him to get Top 4 as Martial and Pogba won't keep bailing him out.
Only way he stays is if we win the CL. Considering we won LC and EL right after Liverpool crashed out of the finals in both comps the previous year, I'd say there's a chance.
Source?
Either way, he's gone end of the season. It will take a minor miracle for him to get Top 4 as Martial and Pogba won't keep bailing him out.
Only way he stays is if we win the CL. Considering we won LC and EL right after Liverpool crashed out of the finals in both comps the previous year, I'd say there's a chance.
He will stay if he salvaged top 4 and maintains a couple of good cup runs.
He is? De Gea is quite comfortably our best footballer IMO. I mean, it's not even close.
Yup. Doesn't look very likely right now but we do have a chance if we go on a run.
Jose was backed last summer, the acquisitions of Fred, Dallot and Grant is proof of that, just not to the extent of previous summers. Considering he has spent over £400 million on a long list of transfers that have either failed to adapt to his system, settle at the club, or were simply not good enough, it's hardly surprising that Ed decided to adopt a more cautious approach this time around.
Jose has spent a small fortune over the last 3 years and the club is no further progressed than the day he took over. He can whine about insufficient backing in the transfer market all he likes, but he only has himself to blame.
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You wish.
Firstly, as I said, that would be a miracle as all our wins have been due to individual brilliance by Martial or Pogba. That cant really be sustained. Secondly, even if he gets this miracle run going, his incessant moaning and digs at the board when things aren't peachy have probably made Ed reach the end of his tether. I think Ed will look at 3 years as having come full circle with Jose.
But we will see. I am not a Jose hater, if he shows signs of being the guy we knew at Inter and early Real, then I would fully get behind him. Thing is, he seems to have lost his mojo.
He was backed pretty well in his first 2 summers. His first summer was the best for us post Fergie imo.
Not sure about last summer but opinions.
Not this season, but yeah based on overall contributions, De Gea has got to take it.
It's pretty obvious that they're all Mourinho signings. That's how we've always operated. We aren't RM or Chelsea who impose "club signings" on the manager. Until we get confirmation as to the opposite the trend that has always been there will be correctly presumed to be present now as well.
If your basis for (desperately) wanting them to be club signings is really Mourinho's past record and the poor quality of the signings at United not reconciling with that, then that says more about your desire to view him in a positive light than any facts at our disposal. It's essentially the fanboi in you struggling to deal with the reality of Jose making a bit of a mess of managing United.
As for Ed, he is also culpable, especially for appointing three poor managers and I'd love to see him removed from footballing affairs too. But yeah, I'm more interested in an exciting attacking manager in charge of the team. Enough of the drab soulless football.
Yes, I was even told to do my research on these two groups before I decide which party to support because supporting both Mourinho and Pogba is impossible.
So now I want Pogba to be sold because I really can't be bothered calling for Jose's head every time we concede a throw-in.
You wish.
Firstly, as I said, that would be a miracle as all our wins have been due to individual brilliance by Martial or Pogba. That cant really be sustained. Secondly, even if he gets this miracle run going, his incessant moaning and digs at the board when things aren't peachy have probably made Ed reach the end of his tether. I think Ed will look at 3 years as having come full circle with Jose.
But we will see. I am not a Jose hater, if he shows signs of being the guy we knew at Inter and early Real, then I would fully get behind him. Thing is, he seems to have lost his mojo.
I'm not really basing it on my wishes. I'm just saying what looks to be the case historically. Champions League football looks to be a minimum requirement for Ed. He seems to be backing Jose more so than others with the new contract and public briefs (this may be to save face from not spending, who knows).
If he gets top 4 I think hel get another season.
I do not think we operate like this anymore. On paper nothing has changed and its what the manager wants. In practise I think it is different. Moyes said he was promised Bale and I think Muller was one tipped during LVG. Under Jose its literally been briefed to BBC that they have lots to spend on a defender but not on who Jose wanted at the time. More of a Varane sort of player.
To me it is apparent that Woodward is getting too involved into which player fits the team, which should really be reserved for a DoF to work in tandem with the manager.
Of all the stupid posts in recent weeks, the two suggesting Matic and Lukaku aren't Mourinho signings have to be the most bonkers.
In sometime Mourinho fanboys will argue that Mourinho was hired to do nothing but to address the press, Woodward is the CEO, DoF, Coach and tea lady at Manchester United.
Come on Ban you should know this by now. If you don't blame Mourinho for every single thing wrong with Man Utd you're a cultist. You silly fanboy
Edit - just saw a post above mine calling someone a fanboy as I posted
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