So in short, any pale imitation of success - or more than pale - we achieve right now is all down to Jose while every failure is the fault of Fergie, Woodward, no DOF, poor scouting, broken structure, shit squad/poor quality of personnel, lack of spending, City/Pep/Mansour/klopp etc. Good to know that nothing has changed in that regard.
The Mourinho Thread: Should he stay or go? | Sacked
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Yeah, that means we have to ignore previous 2 seasons.
Football is business and Manchester United is business. Ed is not buying players for fun, he is a businessman, he wants to be convinced. Jose could not. So Ed bought no CB.
Its up to Jose to find the right investment, which convinces Ed.
Its up to Jose to find the right investment, which convinces Ed.
I don't understand the point you are trying to make. Morata was sold for less b/c Lukaku was the first choice player by both teams (United and Chelsea).
Auba - 4 years older and publicly wanted out
Lacazette - 2 years older, publicly wanted out, not considered as good as Lukaku
Salah - a year old, not considered as good as Lukaku, Roma forced to sell
Mahrez - 2 years older and publicly wanted out
If the players aren't directly comparable why list them? Confusing.
You are isolating one of his attributes and again that's intellectually dishonest. Lukaku was the top target for 2 of the largest clubs in the PL. The Heskey comparisons never surfaced until he played under Mourinho. Or do you mean to tell the consensus was Lukaku was a bad signing? or United paid too much? We can pull up the old threads if we need to.
Well Mourinho thought so too haha. It's quite funny how hard it is for you to admit Lukaku was a Mourinho signing
Ah, don't you know, with the holy trinity of Mourinho mentalists in here, you can only state facts that suit their agenda. If something doesn't suit their pro-Mourinho stance, they will simply ignore it.
I just saw your post but I realized we had virtually the same reply. It's clear that he just doesn't want to be wrong. Of all the excuses for Mourinho, blaming Woodward for Lukaku is the most egregious. It defies logic.
If Jose gets the CB he wants and performances/results fail to improve would that be enough to convince his hardest supporters that he won’t work?
Or will more excuses be made for him?
Someone needs to explain how a new CB will help Lukaku control a ball and finish his chances and how a CB will enable Matic to be able to pass with urgency and be more mobile.
Or will more excuses be made for him?
Someone needs to explain how a new CB will help Lukaku control a ball and finish his chances and how a CB will enable Matic to be able to pass with urgency and be more mobile.
If reports are anything to go by you've missed Perisic and Wilian.
Oh poor Jose got only 7 out of 8 players he wanted and then got Sanchez for huge wages in Jan, what a shame. By all reports you have missed Inter director saying only way Perisic would have left is for player plus cash deal, which means Martial moving in other direction. So yeah, Jose was well backed.
Some of the mental gymnastics on display here is amazing.
There are a lot of people on here with a lot of different opinions, I doubt there are many that are as flippant as you suggest and it’s just at times the people that were never impressed or didn’t want said signing pipe up when he isn’t doing too well and on the opposite people who wanted said signing will be out to support them and be vocal about it when they are doing well.Who is this Dips and why isn't Jose playing him? Another victim of his vindictiveness?
Seriously though, it's so hard to keep up these days with the fluidity of how people define a shit signing. Last season Lukaku was a good signing and so was Matic while few wanted Lindelöf sold by the end of August last year as he was a flop. Now it's the other way around, Lukaku is a shit signing, should have gotten Morata instead. Pogba is on a whole other level though, he can change from being a shit signing to a good one twice during match. And these people want me to believe they'd be willing to give a "young and attack-minded" manager a "a few years"
I’m sure there is a middle ground where people have come around to certain players or turned but surely it can’t just be as bipolar as many suggest.
No.
Even if the board somehow bought Koulibaly and Varane in January, if we continued to struggle, Jose's cult would still back him and blame the board for not bringing in those two in the summer. They wouldn't have had enough time to "blood in" and "adapt", so it wouldn't be Jose's fault according to them.
You really underestimate the level of excuses this lot are willing to make for their dear leader.
Sorry but you do not understand the inner working of the football business, the manager is either given a budget which is made up of the fee for the player and the wages.
So for instance if Jose was given 100 mill budget each season, the fee and wages are offset within the 100 mill, so if jose signs Dalot fo 20 mill and Dalot picks up a wage of £20,000 per week, on a 5 year contract, this equates to just over 1 mill a year and just over 5 mill in 5 years, leaving Jose with 74 mill left to spend in the current window.
Woodward is not qualified to veto Jose's deals, he can however fail to make purchase due to the selling clubs, hiking up the prices. What should normally happen is Jose see's a player or a player is brought to his attention by the club scouts, a decison is made by the manager or the manager and DOF, then Woodward enter into the fray to negotiate.
In normal practice, there would be 3 to 5 options, if option 1 is not acheiveable, then Woodward attempts to purchase option 2 or 3.
Man Utd is not Southampton, who acts as a feeder club. It's not Jose job to convince Woodward of investments, but to provide him or with a shortlist, and Woodwards job to provide the manager with the tools to do the job.
We got Sanchez instead of Perisic (for whom we would have to sacrifice Martial, a no-goer). Sanchez was very much a Jose signing, before anyone puts it on Ed.
Willian averages five goals a season, so he isn't really a big miss. Mata can do most of what Willian does minus the pace. We need an actual productive RW and Willian was definitely not worth the 50-60 million Chelsea would ask.
I think the reason why Man Utd have not fired Mourinho, or did not bring in a defender in the Summer is because they may breach Premier League's £7m wage bill cap this season. This does not in of itself trigger a breach of the Premier League rules because Utd can sell a player (which they did in the Summer) but it means they have to be very careful about future spending in this financial year. The comments to the press that the Utd board did not rate Mourinho's targets were in my opinion a smokescreen. Perhaps if the player was an outstanding target they would have gone for it, but if they did they would have to sell later in the January window, and that entails risk.
If you want to check any of this, there's a pdf of Utd's 2018 1st qtr results on their web-site and you can also find the rules on short term cost control in the Premier League handbook.
If you want to check any of this, there's a pdf of Utd's 2018 1st qtr results on their web-site and you can also find the rules on short term cost control in the Premier League handbook.
I think Mou never wanted Lukaku. He didn't rate him enough to keep him at Chelsea so why would he take him back for almost 100m? In my view, Mourinho want a striker who can hold up the ball and dominant in the air which is why I think he really wanted Morata. Morata's hold up play and knack of scoring headers beats Lukaku on all count and that's the kind of striker Jose want. Drogba, Millto, Benzema, Ibra and Diego Costa all fit the profile so again why Jose want a striker who fills none of the criteria?
So if Lukaku fail, the blame should not be on Mourinho as he is not the type he wanted in the first place.
So if Lukaku fail, the blame should not be on Mourinho as he is not the type he wanted in the first place.
There was some article in which it was mentioned that SAF had a 75/25 approach - 75% focus on our preparation and tactics and 25% on stopping opponents. I think the problem with Mou is that it is possible for this to be now 25/75 as Mou has a "don't lose" approach rather than a "let's win" approach.
This is also why I think he's no longer able to adapt to new tactics and why we look ancient. All modern managers are more of coaches who are focusing on improving the players they have and creating a style for the team (Pep, Klopp, Sarri, etc.). And this is also why I think Mou wants to be more active in the transfer market to switch the style of play by getting new players instead of coaching/building something.
But to be fair to him, there is so much scrutiny which might be making him feel insecure and focus on the short-term instead of taking a risk to focus on the long-term solution.
This is also why I think he's no longer able to adapt to new tactics and why we look ancient. All modern managers are more of coaches who are focusing on improving the players they have and creating a style for the team (Pep, Klopp, Sarri, etc.). And this is also why I think Mou wants to be more active in the transfer market to switch the style of play by getting new players instead of coaching/building something.
But to be fair to him, there is so much scrutiny which might be making him feel insecure and focus on the short-term instead of taking a risk to focus on the long-term solution.
Yeah because the overrated and inconsistent Willian would have been the answer to all of our problems
We were crap with Zlatan too though. What would really change if Zlatan was here? In 2017 season, we still had Pogba. This year Matic is crap so we can't even use him as evidence that it would somehow make a United team with Zlatan (striker Mou likes) better than this year's team. Our CB situation was actually better in 2017 as Bailly was in fine form. What's the difference? Martial wasn't that good compared to this season (which has nothing to do with Mou's management)?
We would still suck even with Zlatan from 2017.
Even if Mourinho thought that Lukaku was worth 1 billion, it is Ed's responsibility to make that decision. This is part of Ed's job and he makes that judgement call on every transfer - some yes and some no.
He might take inputs from Mourinho, scouts, other transactions, marketing or even his horologist, but at the end of the day, it is his decision and thus he is responsible for the good/bad outcome (in terms of quality of player we got for money paid) -
How is Sanchez a 100% mourinho signing and nothing to do with Woodward? What exactly is this based on?
Also Wilian would have been an incredible value add to our right wing.
I'm trying to understand this viewpoint.
So transfers are Ed's responsibility? The performance of said player is Ed's responsibility in that if the player proves to be of bad quality, it's Ed's fault and if the player proves to be of good quality, it's to Ed's praise? And you guys want Woodward to back Mourinho further than he did this summer right? Meaning that Mourinho's coaching is irrelevant?
I'm curious so that I can respond with a better quality answer as I'm not currently understanding as well as I should I think.
and there it is
Honestly, that's the truth. Lukaku has fooled everyone into thinking he is the new Drogba despite having nothing in common in playing style. Watch him at Everton and you will know why he is ill suited to Mourinho's tactics. He run in behind defences latching on to through balls. Mourinho doesn't play that way as he play a more direct style which exposes Lukaku's limitations. His touch is poor to be an effective hold up striker and lack aerial ability to knock it down to teammates making runs.
Morata got his big break under Mourinho at Real Madrid and can fit all the above. I think Mourinho want to wrap the deal with Morata but Woodward saw the opportunity to trump Chelsea for Lukaku so he can get his dick hard about what 'a wonderful negotiator' he is.
We wouldn't be struggling in attack had Mourinho got the striker he originally wanted.
The team sucked bit not Zlatan. Without him, we would have finish lower and not won the League Cup. He is the kind of striker Mourinho know and trust when he had at Inter so it made sense to sign him. Even at 35 his touch and technqiue and ability to hold up the ball is better than Lukaku at 25
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The sooner the actual football starts again the better. This thread is going around in circles. Anyone suggesting our performance might not be completely Mourinho's fault is accused of being in a cult, while the 'Mourinho out' camp seem to need to go all in on their opinion and refuse to listen to anything to the contrary.
It's pretty certain he'll be going nowhere until the end of the season at the earliest, if only for the cost of sacking him alone.
It's pretty certain he'll be going nowhere until the end of the season at the earliest, if only for the cost of sacking him alone.
He fooled everyone, including Mourinho requires much less of a leap of imagination than your silly story.
We are simply lacking in management, leadership, vision and long term planing. Mourinho and Woodward are both to blame and the result of their work is there for all to see. Woodward has done a good job on the business side but we lack any direction on the football side of things. This suggestion that´s harder for us to buy players and so on is just laughable. We are despite the fake clubs like City and PSG that are basicilly scams the club with the highest turnover in the world. We manage to pay the highest wages in the league to a group full of mediocre players at best. We have a manager that behaves like a spoiled brat and despite having spent 400 million pounds already and not much of that well demands more despite most of his singings a failiure. Mourinho has to go and we need a manager like Eddie Howe plus a director of football of the highest calibre. Creating a toxic atmophere is all Mourinho and he is just no able to lead by example and develop himself like a true leader like Ferguson did. Fergie was never full of himself and constantly looking at way´s to improve on his latest title win and not afraid of delegating in order to make the club stronger. Looking at Mourinho acting like a primadonna thinking he´s the greastest and stating his past titles is doing my head in. You are only as good as your last win and he´s just not fit to be manager of Man Utd.
Morata not just sold for less but considerably less. We agreed to pay 25-50% more for Lukaku than what Chelsea paid for Morata.
You might, for whatever reasons, think Lukaku is worth what we agreed to pay, I just disagree.
They are all forwards sold around the same time or do you think valuation should be limited to only exactly similar players?
You definitely should cos many highlighted his limitation (and even posted videos of it) and called him a flat track bully. Some felt he was worth it and I didnt think he was.
and what is the definition of a Mourinho signing?
Mourinho wasn't fooled otherwise he wouldn't sold him and bought an upgrade in Costa. Lukaku is a Woodward signing. The sooner you accept it the better.
The anti Mourinho group are pushing in a certain narrative then builds all their assumptions and posts on it and even mock everyone else for things no one ever said.
I have never seen anyone so far that suggested Mourinho is blameless, he wasn't backed because he didn't get a CB or that Toby would have solved all our problems.
The only ones who are saying this are the anti Mourinho, which is pretty funny when you think about it.
Just because you memorize somthing and wants to repeat it doesn't mean it's a fact or anyone said it.
I have never seen anyone so far that suggested Mourinho is blameless, he wasn't backed because he didn't get a CB or that Toby would have solved all our problems.
The only ones who are saying this are the anti Mourinho, which is pretty funny when you think about it.
Just because you memorize somthing and wants to repeat it doesn't mean it's a fact or anyone said it.
How can you say that with such certainty after so many players flopped here? Hell, in this very post you mention Sanchez. He looked like an incredible value add to our attack.
There's a pretty big difference between "not everything is Mourinho's fault" and to posters pretty much absolving him of any responsibility for transfers, player performance, anything.
What? There are literally hundreds of posts you can bring up with a simple search that say exactly that.
Its not rocket science and dont think I have been posting in greek, but here it is again
- how much we pay (or refuse to pay) and the value/quality of player we get in return = Ed responsibility e.g. was Lukaku worth 75-90m, matic worth 40m, Toby worth 70m, Pogba worth 90m etc
- how much we are getting out of the players on the pitch = Mourinho's responsibility e.g. are we getting the best out of Pogba, are we playing to Lukaku's strength, can the squad perform better etc.
No one has said he wasn't backed. We are just saying last summer was a failure.
No one has said Toby woud have solved all our problems. We are just saying he would have been a valuable addition to our unexperienced defense.
Jus because you are interpreting it a different way doesn't mean it's true.
Your 1st Qtr results state your wage bill has increased by £7.1m.
That implies to me no more transfer spending until a player is sold which puts the Summer Transfer window in new light don't you think?
That implies to me no more transfer spending until a player is sold which puts the Summer Transfer window in new light don't you think?
You're being silly.
I'd say in this thread if anything there is a stronger element of 'everything is Mourinho's fault' than 'nothing is Mourinho's fault'.
Well you know what they say - the truth never lies, but when it does lie, it lies somewhere in the middle.
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