The Mourinho Thread: Should he stay or go? | Sacked

[Treble]

City's bench players on Sunday cost 120m, ours - 230m.

When the likes of Lukaku, Fred, Bailly, Sanchez don't start, there isnt a team with more expensive bench players in England. Bad return for huge investments in the team. I wonder who is respondsible for the fact that most Jose signings do not look good enough.

 

[Treble]

Woodward accepted but entirely on the manager? Do these players (the best paid in the PL no less) have no responsibility at all for working hard and having the ability to string together 3-4 passes?

Running has little to do with passing. Besides, its on Jose to choose players who can actually pass and run.

The team has a poor work rate because it doesn't press enough and it doesn't press enough because of tactics. It's on the manager, especially if the problem persists for two years now.

 

[Siorac]

City's bench players on Sunday cost 120m, ours - 230m.

When the likes of Lukaku, Fred, Bailly, Sanchez don't start, there isnt a team with more expensive bench players in England. Bad return for huge investments in the team. I wonder who is respondsible for the fact that most Jose signings do not look good enough.

Apparently, it's the scouts now.

 

[Treble]

Apparently, it's the scouts now.

I can't imagine that Guardiola would buy players he didn't watch and approve. Same with Jose, he must be irresponsible to accept players he hasn't watched. It's a daft point anyway.

 

[The holy trinity 68]

Yes because he fell out with Pepe. Abit like how we see Bailly not playing now. Like that.

He also fell out with Ramos when he criticised his tactics. He also got dropped, now we like to say Ramos is a top class defender. I’m sure if he was at Madrid for longer Ramos would have been exciled.

The difference is it doesn’t matter if Bailly is out if favour with Mourinho because Bailly is garbage.

However Mourinho apparently had problem’s with Shaw and Martial and look how that turned out. Believing what the papers say about United is silly because United are used to get clicks. Mourinho “fell out” with both Shaw and Martial apparently, yet they are both playing great and starting most weeks.

 

[JPRouve]

I can't imagine that Guardiola would buy players he didn't watch and approve. Same with Jose, he must be irresponsible to accept players he hasn't watched. It's a daft point anyway.

As far as I know, managers watch players but not as much as people think. They rely a lot on scouting reports since scouts watch players numerous times and have the time to investigate and dissect players. But it doesn't really justify much because United have top employees in every departments, scouting included.

 

[VP89]

City's bench players on Sunday cost 120m, ours - 230m.

When the likes of Lukaku, Fred, Bailly, Sanchez don't start, there isnt a team with more expensive bench players in England. Bad return for huge investments in the team. I wonder who is respondsible for the fact that most Jose signings do not look good enough.

Most our signings haven't been good enough since before Jose.

 

[Treble]

As far as I know, managers watch players but not as much as people think. They rely a lot on scouting reports since scouts watch players numerous times and have the time to investigate and dissect players. But it doesn't really justify much because United have top employees in every departments, scouting included.

Besides, the likes of Lukaku, Sanchez and Matic do not need scouting, Jose knows their qualities. It's entirely on him that they do not seem good enough now.

 

[Treble]

Most our signings haven't been good enough since before Jose.

Jose pretends to be one of the very best managers though. Knowing that it's difficult to compete with City, he doesn't have much room for expensive mistakes. Scouts cannot be blamed that Lukaku, Matic and Sanchez stuggle right now.

 

[Siorac]

Most our signings haven't been good enough since before Jose.

And the managers who had made those signings lost their jobs.

 

[JPRouve]

Jose pretends to be one of the very best managers though. Knowing that it's difficult to compete with City, he doesn't have much room for expensive mistakes. Scouts cannot be blamed that Lukaku, Matic and Sanchez stuggle right now.

For me that's the key, unless people genuinely think that our players are mid to bottom table players then there is a huge problem with the coaching staff. You can't pay a manager like the best or second best manager in the world and not expect him to have an exceptional impact, if he can't make a huge difference then there is no point wasting money on him.

 

[VP89]

Jose pretends to be one of the very best managers though. Knowing that it's difficult to compete with City, he doesn't have much room for expensive mistakes. Scouts cannot be blamed that Lukaku, Matic and Sanchez stuggle right now.

I get that he's having a shit season so far. But you can do better than spouting out things like the bold bit. Even his staunchest of critics in the press don't suggest hes a pretender.

Lukaku is in a bad spell, he had a fine season last year. Matic had a fine season last year. This is less to do with how "good" your example players are and more to do with the terrible form they're in.

 

[Treble]

I get that he's having a shit season so far. But you can do better than spouting out things like the bold bit. Even his staunchest of critics in the press don't suggest hes a pretender.

Lukaku is in a bad spell, he had a fine season last year. Matic had a fine season last year. This is less to do with how "good" your example players are and more to do with the terrible form they're in.

He was one of the best in the past, nothing indicates that he is still one of the best. That's a simple point many Jose acolytes stuggle to come to terms with.

And what if the players are in poor form because of the manager? Lukaku scored 26 league goals at Everton and only 16 league goals last season. Matic was good only in the first months and even then he was nothing special.

 

[VP89]

He was one of the best in the past, nothing indicates that he is still one of the best. That's a simple point many Jose acolytes stuggle to come to terms with.

And what if the players are in poor form because of the manager? Lukaku scored 26 league goals at Everton and only 16 league goals last season. Matic was good only in the first months and even then he was nothing special.

I don't think a pretend manager can finish 2nd last season on 81 points whilst reaching a cup final they were unfortunate to lose in.

Lukaku was overall a fine producer last season. He ended on what, 27 goals in all competitions? You'd be overly critical to argue against a decent debut season for a big club based on this. I thought Matic was fine last year but he clearly suits certain games more than others, and one qualm about Jose is that he insists on deploying Matic in all situations. I agree this is proving costly this year.

 

[Robbie Boy]

I don't think a pretend manager can finish 2nd last season on 81 points whilst reaching a cup final they were unfortunate to lose in.

Lukaku was overall a fine producer last season. He ended on what, 27 goals in all competitions? You'd be overly critical to argue against a decent debut season for a big club based on this. I thought Matic was fine last year but he clearly suits certain games more than others, and one qualm about Jose is that he insists on deploying Matic in all situations. I agree this is proving costly this year.

What final did you watch? We were atrocious.

 

[JPRouve]

I get that he's having a shit season so far. But you can do better than spouting out things like the bold bit. Even his staunchest of critics in the press don't suggest hes a pretender.

Lukaku is in a bad spell, he had a fine season last year. Matic had a fine season last year. This is less to do with how "good" your example players are and more to do with the terrible form they're in.

I would never call him a pretender but he does benefit from his pre-2010 achievements. Real Madrid weren't special with him even during the season where they registered +100 points, they were matched and surpassed by other European teams like United, Barcelona or Bayern while benefiting from an all time great at his peak.

I am an admirer of Mourinho pre-2010 and I also like his personality when he isn't in a manager capacity, he is extremely likeable in interviews and seems to be intelligent and funny. But since 2013 Mourinho isn't special at all.

 

[rotherham_red]

I don't think a pretend manager can finish 2nd last season on 81 points whilst reaching a cup final they were unfortunate to lose in.

Lukaku was overall a fine producer last season. He ended on what, 27 goals in all competitions? You'd be overly critical to argue against a decent debut season for a big club based on this. I thought Matic was fine last year but he clearly suits certain games more than others, and one qualm about Jose is that he insists on deploying Matic in all situations. I agree this is proving costly this year.

We were unfortunate to lose the FA Cup final? We barely laid a glove on them, FFS!

 

[VP89]

What final did you watch? We were atrocious.

The same one you did? Where we had 67% possession, 18 shots to their 6 and where the difference was a Hazard penalty.

 

[Robbie Boy]

The same one you did? Where we had 67% possession, 18 shots to their 6 and where the difference was a Hazard penalty.

So we gave away the peno, they scored it, we were atrocious and created nothing of note but we were unfortunate to lose? Ok.

 

[Treble]

I don't think a pretend manager can finish 2nd last season on 81 points whilst reaching a cup final they were unfortunate to lose in.

Lukaku was overall a fine producer last season. He ended on what, 27 goals in all competitions? You'd be overly critical to argue against a decent debut season for a big club based on this. I thought Matic was fine last year but he clearly suits certain games more than others, and one qualm about Jose is that he insists on deploying Matic in all situations. I agree this is proving costly this year.

I didn't mean that Jose is a fraud, maybe "pretending" wasn't the right expression. My point is that he himself has decided to sign Lukaku, Sanchez and Matic and scouts cannot be blamed for their performances (this season). Basically, none of his signings (worth taken together nearly 400m) is great. Pogba is a great talent but very inconsistent. He is responsible for his signings and their performances even if others are responsible too.

 

[cheeky_backheel]

Why did he drop Pepe? Because he fell out with him he was his go to go before that.

Pepe fell in the pecking order cos age and persistent injuries were robbing him of his athleticism (which was his primary strength) while Varane style of plays was more suited to complementing Ramos. I think Pepe felt his past loyalty to Mourinho should have helped him keep his starting spot.

Yes that exactly what happened with Ramos but it was also built up frustration which caused him to go against the manager.

Its was less about Mourinho but a persistent problem of Madrid's locker room
- You have a lot of players with influence due to their closeness to Perez e.g. Zidane reportedly got Camacho fired just after 6 games cos he asked Zidane to simplify his game.
- you often had the spanish vs non-spanish groups. The issue is simply spanish NT team mate vs non-spanish club team mate. e.g. when marcelo made the rash tackle on Cesc, the likes of Ramos and Casillas seem more interested in appeasing the barca player than protecting their Madrid team mates while the likes of Ozil and Pipita werent so polite
- you have iker's GF who is a journalist that he regularly fed inside stories, and probably some other players with journalist friends and Madrid mouth piece Marca etc

Maybe Mourinho could have managed things better but I dont think quiet conflict resolution is in his DNA. These issues are a major part of why Madrid has a high turnover of managers, with the root problem being Perez himself.

 

[VP89]

I would never call him a pretender but he does benefit from his pre-2010 achievements. Real Madrid weren't special with him even during the season where they registered +100 points, they were matched and surpassed by other European teams like United, Barcelona or Bayern while benefiting from an all time great at his peak.

I am an admirer of Mourinho pre-2010 and I also like his personality when he isn't in a manager capacity, he is extremely likeable in interviews and seems to be intelligent and funny. But since 2013 Mourinho isn't special at all.

I can't disagree with your views to be fair. I agree with most of what you said and he is definately different in his persona. You didn't like him in the successful Chelsea season upon his return too though?

We were unfortunate to lose the FA Cup final? We barely laid a glove on them, FFS!

So we gave away the peno, they scored it, we were atrocious and created nothing of note but we were unfortunate to lose? Ok.

There were a couple of very good chances. A clear Lukaku header was one if I remember correctly? We were rubbish in the first half but a lot better in the second. We dominated most periods and a draw would have been a better reflection of how the game panned out as I remember. Feel free to post the respective XG and prove me wrong that they weren't dissimilar? Or focus on the wider point I made, that Jose still got us to a cup final for the 3rd in 2 years whilst taking us to 81 points in the league, so the argument that he's just a "Pretend manager" is quite harsh.

 

[Robbie Boy]

The same one you did? Where we had 67% possession, 18 shots to their 6 and where the difference was a Hazard penalty.

Here's the post match thread from here. Looks like you just made stuff up https://www.redcafe.net/threads/post-match-vs-chelsea.438756/.

 

[VP89]

I didn't mean that Jose is a fraud, maybe "pretending" wasn't the right expression. My point is that he himself has decided to sign Lukaku, Sanchez and Matic and scouts cannot be blamed for their performances (this season). Basically, none of his signings (worth taken together nearly 400m) is great. Pogba is a great talent but very inconsistent. He is responsible for his signings and their performances even if others are responsible too.

Yes. He is definately failing to get the best out of some of his signings. I 100%agree.

But my point is also that our general scouting is shite because most of our signings have been underwhelming.

 

[cheeky_backheel]

Still haven't answered my question,who was our first choice for Pogba,Ibra and Lukaku? I don't buy your crap because it completely contradicts what Jose himself said. Jose himself said he had 4 targets and confirmed he had gotten them.You a random bloke on the Internet keep saying it's now a 'list of possible targets' basing your evidence on the fact. that we enquired about some dreamworld signings and specifically single out all his crap signings as 4th choices. Do you realise how stupid you make Jose sound telling us Varane was his first choice, who the feck is going to sell him to us? What about Bale?We've enquired about him before he must have been first choice for...Sanchez??He should go for Ramos, Kompany and Pique as well then. Next you'll be telling us Kane was first choice to Lukaku because we made enquiries. What sort of bollock logic is that? You've gone from defending Jose to painting him as an idiot who doesn't know what kind of players to target who are attainable

You sure are one hell of a somniloquist

 

[Robbie Boy]

You sure are one hell of a somniloquist

Fab word, never heard anyone in real life actually say this, bravo

 

[JPRouve]

I can't disagree with your views to be fair. I agree with most of what you said and he is definately different in his persona. You didn't like him in the successful Chelsea season upon his return too though?

I liked the first 4 months of the title season but Chelsea were awful outside of it. They reminded me Real Madrid coached by Capello in 2006, no one wants to see that and it's not reliably successful.

 

[Handré1990]

For me that's the key, unless people genuinely think that our players are mid to bottom table players then there is a huge problem with the coaching staff. You can't pay a manager like the best or second best manager in the world and not expect him to have an exceptional impact, if he can't make a huge difference then there is no point wasting money on him.

This is the core issue, and now we seem to be regressing, which should be of the utmost concern for the people in charge. Unfortunately, those same people seem incapable of understanding such a simple point. It does seem like we are indeed without leadership with regards to what should be the single most important focus of a football club, the sporting side itself.

@VP89 I disagree about Lukaku. Last season was barely passable for our second most expensive signing of all time (I might be wrong, but the price could rise to match Pogba’s, no?). I saw it as a slow, get started in a new club season.

Zlatan’s first season was much more dominant, and he stood out as one of our best players, would you say the same for Lukaku? Nothing against the man, but like Zlatan said about Carew back in the day, he can do what Lukaku can do with a football, using an orange. He will prove one of our most expensive mistakes I’m afraid.

 

[Handré1990]

Fab word, never heard anyone in real life actually say this, bravo

Think the word he’s trying for is soliloquist, unless of course he is actually trying to say he’s talking in his sleep. I would think he means a monologist, though.
Sorry, couldn’t help myself!

 

[Reddy Rederson]

Getting rid of Woodward has nothing to do with the man responsible for coaching this team. What you said is true, we have more problems than Jose, doesn't mean we shouldn't sack him. It's not like any external factors are stopping him from coaching his team to play as a team.

Again you mention managers name when the players they played were different, yeah I mean core players, not squad players.

When you have good coach who makes team play as a team, then no one talks about structure and all that BS. These are the excuses when coach is doing a poor job. Liverpool had one good season under Rodgers before going shit, they didn't change much, just hired Klopp. Now everything looks perfect at Liverpool, when before Klopp, Liverpool fans were blaming their owners.

Everything at City remained same, except they signed Pep and they are looking like they will never get beat.

Chelsea also didn't change their structure. They hired Sarri who wanted Rugani, Higuain and ended up with Kovacic on loan, they are playing their best football in years or maybe forever in PL.

Arsenal more or less have same players and have added Emery, they are playing with lot of intensity and there is a clear pattern in their game.


People talk about structure and so many other things, I will never understand how that is related to what happens on the training pitch. Hiring proper DoF won't change how we play. It will only change whom we sign, before turning shit at ManUtd.

Finally, sacking Jose won't fix everything magically but it will be a step in right direction.

I’ll never understand how an expression like “can’t see the Forest for the trees” can be so well known, yet still some people see nothing but trees.

 

[roonster09]

I’ll never understand how an expression like “can’t see the Forest for the trees” can be so well known, yet still some people see nothing but trees.

Well I feel, problem is so obvious and yet people are blind not to see it.

 

[Mainoldo]

Ignored what ?

You asked for a source, I brought it. If you don't want to believe him or try to look into thinga inbetween lines, it's up to you. Basing my point on an actual quote is better than basing it on my complete assumption.



It's definitely the ideal considering the ripped some of the best success ever thanks to it. The season they won the league and CL double they had 2 teams not just one, and they were playing second string in the league to secure it while keeping their main players rested for CL, that level of squad depth is something not many clubs can dream of.

What's the strategy in refusing to pay for anyone bar Varane for 100m ? Do you believe whay you have just written ? This quote was no different than Wenger saying he wanted to get this and this but couldn't, just to save face because we couldn't get anyone

If we had had a strategy we wouldn't have been 6 years in post SAF under 3 managers and still enter each summer needing at least 4-5 players in positions with glaring weakness while City and Liverpool needed 2 good summers to transform their team completely wih focused signings in certain areas.



It's really weird you accused me previously of not reading while you're clearly not. I was talking about a certain issue regarding our scouting that has been persisting here for years and way before Mourinho arrived but you're again trying to make it revolve around the last 3 summers and about all kind of transfers. That's not the point I made earlier. I was talking about our ability to scout young prospects with world class potential and securing them for gold value, something we have been failure in for years and it's clearly due to scouting problem. What is Mata and Torres related with this ? I said big signings are on manager and CEO, while young prospects are on the scouts.

At this point I think it's fair to stop this discussion as I can't see it going any farther tbh with you.

Your factual quotes clearly said Jorginho failed similar to Sanchez. Why did Sanchez not go to City? Do we need an actual quote to figure that out. Or do I have to explain what I meant when I said read between the lines. I’m all for people defend Mourinho but it’s like all his fanboys are thick or ignorant.

So Mardid is a good model now? One that has been failing for years but only picked up once they signed the worlds greatest ever footballer (arguably). I wonder if it’s sheer genius or a common dinominator.

But your still clearly not reading what I said. Who in world football gets no stop world class potential young talents and see’s Them progress to world elites. Our history actually shows we do this better than most so why are you having a dig at our structure which has worked for years until SAF left. Which is starting to fail in correlation with our poor selection of managers. Or principles as pointed out remain the same. From Zaha to Depay to Martial to Dalot and I’m sure if we had a manger who wanted youth to improve we would have moved hell on water to get Mbappe and Dembele’s of this world.

 

[BULB]

You see Jose thinks he's a coaching genius and in his mind he thinks the results back it up.

If Pogba hadn't have hit the post vs Juve, we would've pinched a draw when we should've lost 4-0.

We stole the return leg 2-1 which we should have lost 4-1.

vs City up until the 86th minute we were a goal away from pinching a draw, a game we should have lost 5-0.

This is the problem, Jose thinks he's doing the greatest coaching of his career.

The sad thing is I think Jose is trying to change. I bet he said to Woodward and the board, give me my new contract and then I will play attacking football, I'm guessing he'd prefer to play 4-2-3-1 every game.. IRC after he got his new contract, he rolled out a 4-3-3 against Newcastle and they gave us a spanking.

Fast forward a year
there's no green shoots
there's no progress
there's no game we have dominated the midfield and put 25 shots on target
there's absolutely no vision of how we could be playing in 12 months

He either won't play attacking football, or he as absolutely no idea how to implement it (I suspect it's the latter) - either are totally unacceptable.

Not to mention his non stop moaning and whinging and the complete embarrassment it is in the "big games" where we park a bus and let the opposition walk all over us with the huge tv audience that would be watching those games.

One thing is for certain, no half decent forward or attacking midfielder will be signing for us while he is around.

 

[sunama]

For me there are only three real possibilities. Either your players are underperforming, they're crap or Mourinho cant manage them properly. P

Underperforming is now quite normal at MUFC.
Managers, players, coaches and other staff. All seem to underperform by their own standards (the last part was the most important part).
It if utterly bizarre that a person who was very good at their job previously, joins the club and loses some of that ability, immediately.

Some said that had Mahrez joined us, he'd instantly be performing below his own performance levels. And I wouldn't disagree with that.

 

[Robbie Boy]

For all the excuses of money being spent, I can't understand the logic. Yes we (City) have outspent you in the years since both managers arrived and we finished separated by goal difference, but you've still out spent most the rest of the league and there's no way you should be performing as badly as you are.

For me there are only three real possibilities. Either your players are underperforming, they're crap or Mourinho cant manage them properly. Personally I don't see how players like Pogba, Mata, Sanchez and Lukaku can all be considered crap, or how they can all underperform so drastically, simultaneously. So barring those two I'd have to assign blame to Mourinho's management. That being said, whether you get rid of him and who you bring in instead *shrugs*.

Hi Jack, I'm unclear who you support. Would you mind clarifying it?

 

[Reddy Rederson]

Well I feel, problem is so obvious and yet people are blind not to see it.

Yes, and you’re the one not seeing it. We sacked moyes, and lvg came in and that was supposed to right the ship. Then we sacked lvg, and Jose came in and that was supposed to right the ship. The truth is that the ship is fecked, and no captain is going to right it without severe work being done to it first.

3 managers and nothing has changed. Why would a 4th manager picked by the same guy, to work in the same situation with the same people result in any difference? Don’t you see that allowing ed to pick another manager will just have us right back here having the same stupid arguments in a couple of years? Just like it did with moyes, just like it did with lvg. Sacking the manager won’t change what’s ultimately wrong with us. And until that’s sorted, we can hire the best manager in the world, and we will still suck balls.

 

[Amir]

Yes, and you’re the one not seeing it. We sacked Moyes, and lvg came in and that was supposed to right the ship. Then we sacked lvg, and Jose came in and that was supposed to right the ship. The truth is that the ship is fecked, and no captain is going to right it without severe work being done to it first.

3 managers and nothing has changed. Why would a 4th manager picked by the same guy, to work in the same situation with the same people result in any difference? Don’t you see that allowing ed to pick another manager will just have us right back here having the same stupid arguments in a couple of years? Just like it did with Moyes, just like it did with lvg. Sacking the manager won’t change what’s ultimately wrong with us. And until that’s sorted, we can hire the best manager in the world, and we will still suck balls.

While I agree that the problems are more deeply rooted, I totally disagree about the effect of having the right manager. And I believe the right person will be able to do a whole lot.

We quite simply got it wrong in our selection. Moyes was never at that level, LVG's best was behind him and even with Mourinho you could already see question marks in his second stint with Chelsea.

The major question is - can the current regime pick the right manager?

 

[Reddy Rederson]

While I agree that the problems are more deeply rooted, I totally disagree about the effect of having the right manager. And I believe the right person will be able to do a whole lot.

We quite simply got it wrong in our selection. Moyes was never at that level, LVG's best was behind him and even with Mourinho you could already see question marks in his second stint with Chelsea.

The major question is - can the current regime pick the right manager?

and the fact they picked 3 duds in a row doesnt answer that question for you? If we arent prepared to give jose more time/another chance, why are giving it to others?

 

[Amir]

and the fact they picked 3 duds in a row doesnt answer that question for you? If we arent prepared to give jose more time/another chance, why are giving it to others?

I'm not at all sure there's this great art to selecting a manager. Heck, I would have taken Mourinho, so it's a little hard for me to blame someone who hired him.

But yes, that is indeed an issue.

 

[Foxbatt]

It is the lack of footballing that is depressing. There seems to plan. No plan to pass the ball or movements off the ball. It seems that since they are all top professional football players, they just get on the pitch and do whatever they think is best at that given moment in time.
Look at our corners and free kicks. No plan. During open play get it to Martial and let him try something. Lukaku stands there and pointing to his feet all the time. Smalling trying to pass the ball in a funny way. I can go on.