The West Ham game was clear as day for me.
The Mourinho Thread: Should he stay or go? | Sacked
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The West Ham game was clear as day for me.
We just need to pick a philosophy, a direction and stick to that and buy players based on that. I wouldn't like it to be Mourinho's though. We might as well just keep him then and that looks like an increasingly terrible idea.
Starting Herrera at CB, starting McTominay at CB... petty points scoring with the board at the expense of the team.
Because even if he does turn it around what is the end result? He won't utilise the youth unless they're 6ft tall, the football is not going to be progressive and theres one thing that's an even bigger gurantee than success with Mourinho and that's drama.
If there's one thing that has been constant throughout Jose's tenure here,is that we get really terrible as the season goes on. Anyone who really watched us last season would have known our football was getting us nowhere this season. Is there anyone who really believes signing more defenders in January is going to change much?
@Dante I get your point and agree with the idea that there is probably a lack of blueprint within the board. But I disagree a tiny bit with a couple of things.
The managers that we brought have in common experience, I believe that it was the only criteria outside of recognizability. It might be harsh and maybe I'm totally wrong but I genuinely believe the they are absolute mugs. If in 2014 you offered them the choice between Cappelo and Pochettino, they would have picked the former because his name was familiar to them, you could even argue that it is what they did with LVG.
LVG isn't as much of an idealist, that's why he had no issue turning his possession based Netherlands team into an ultra defensive outfit during the World Cup, he lost key players and moved to a more adapted system, he also used more direct tactics with AZ, he does believe in possession and technical domination but he isn't blinded by it. He is just wank at signing players and always have been which means that under his management we never brought the attacking players that we needed.
The managers that we brought have in common experience, I believe that it was the only criteria outside of recognizability. It might be harsh and maybe I'm totally wrong but I genuinely believe the they are absolute mugs. If in 2014 you offered them the choice between Cappelo and Pochettino, they would have picked the former because his name was familiar to them, you could even argue that it is what they did with LVG.
LVG isn't as much of an idealist, that's why he had no issue turning his possession based Netherlands team into an ultra defensive outfit during the World Cup, he lost key players and moved to a more adapted system, he also used more direct tactics with AZ, he does believe in possession and technical domination but he isn't blinded by it. He is just wank at signing players and always have been which means that under his management we never brought the attacking players that we needed.
Could you elaborate please?
He might not, or he might. Hes already shown he can make an effort to adapt. So if we cant get better at the moment, and hes showing that he can get the team playing well, why not give him time to turn it around? I know that we could right off the season and get someone else in right now and they could use the time to prepare for next season, but it comes back to who? And then theres all the rest of the stuff that still wont be sorted.
I dont see him getting the sack before he cant make top 4 as that seems to be the bar Ed has set. Top 4 = safety from eviction. So why not get behind him and the team until that goal is gone? No amount of moaning is going to make Ed move one way or the other.
I have no idea why Jose is failing at United. He was so successful at Porto, Chelsea and Inter. He should be much better at getting this lot to play better football. His first year we played much better football and created a lot more chances. Yes we failed to convert a lot more too. So something has gone wrong somewhere now.
He could turn it around slightly, but that at most probably means mounting a top four challenge: we've left ourselves with too much work to do to have a realistic tilt at the title. So, as it is, the best we'll likely manage (and this is optimistic) is 3rd or 4th. Three years in, that's probably not good enough for a man whose entire managerial remit revolves around the fact he wins trophies.
The defences being mounted for him here are fairly weak, too. He may have defended the players against City but that's made moot by the fact we were comfortably swept aside in the very same game. Mild improvement from a side who really should be in the top four shouldn't be viewed as anything remarkable.
Football has changed around Mourinho to an extent and I'm not sure he's adapted effectively. His more pragmatic, defensive style tends not to be successful: most of the recent CL winners since his last one in 2010 (with the exception of Chelsea in 2012) have tended to play attacking football in one form or another, winning not through a necessarily pragmatic approach but by using their attacking firepower to outplay and dominate the opponent. Domestically as well managers like Guardiola, Klopp and Pochettino are doing better than Jose at the moment, and all three generally have a more positive approach tactically than he does.
Managers tend to decline, in the last 20 years I think that only SAF and Heynckes ended their careers at a very high level. The others progressively declined in their 50s and it continued until the end.
Should this side be in the top 4 though? a lot of them havent played well under LVG or Jose, and some even moyes. I just cant get on board laying it all at joses feet. Some of it, yes, definitely. But I think some players just arnet good enough. I think it was the chelsea game, Jose said his assistant came to him after pre match warm up and told him the players were ready to go. The game plan being hit the ground running, but it ended up being another slow start. So if we are coaching them to play a certain way, and they arent doing it. At what point do we start to look at the players? It might just be one. It might just be one bad egg thats breaking down the play and throwing everyone else off. It might be two. You can say its the coaching and you might be right, but I struggle to believe that basic passing is something that needs to be coached into 20something professional footballers. How can they be so bad at the basics and not share some responsibility?
If this side isn't of top four quality then that's Mourinho's fault. We have the second biggest budget in the league, generally speaking, and I believe we also have the second biggest wage bill. If there are players who haven't been good enough since the Moyes era, why are they still here? Mourinho's spent plenty: he forked out lots on Lukaku; if Lukaku isn't of genuine world class quality, then that comes down to Mourinho. If Pogba isn't good enough, that's on Mourinho for spending so much on him. All managers occasionally sign duds, but Mourinho's been given more than enough to at least have this side competing for the title and comfortably reaching the top four. Anything less should be deemed as a disappointment, and it's not as if it's early in his reign. As a manager his forte is delivering instant success over a short-period of time. He's failed in the former and it's difficult to envisage him staying much longer, irrespective of whether or not we want to keep him.
But are the team playing well? One clean sheet this season - 19th in the league, only Fulham are worse. One shot on target against City,
7 Matches since this 'turn around' 12 goals scored, 12 conceded.
I've said earlier in this thread that he may aswell stay until the end of the season now. With the club hiring a DOF and making a long term plan that begins in the summer.
The thing to remember, Mourinhos teams tend to grind out results more in the second half of the season. So if things are bad now, chances are results will get much worse come Jan onwards.
The sooner it's over the better. Chelsea won a CL and a double with an inferior interim coach. Our board are just incompetent with these things. This notion that no one can do better than Jose in the short run is wrong. Can't believe we're flushing another full season on another inevitable sack wait. These board twats are comfortable because profits are stable either way
I can't see us improve under Mourinho. Think he has taken this squad of players as far as he can. He hasn't moved on with the game and found ways to win matches. 3 years at the club and we don't have identity to our play. Players don't look like there coached in a way to win games. He isn't playing the players he spent money on. Doesn't have a idea who his best starting 11 is. We're not even exciting to watch. The board don't care anyways as once we get top 4 that's where the money is. He won't get sacked until we mathematically can't get top 4, we just have to accept that's the way its going to be under Mourinho.
What can we do about it?Sack him and let Carrick run the team for 7 months?Or panic and appoint somebody who happens to be available right now,instead of waiting to see who are the top managers who may be interested in taking over next summer?
Excellent post. These players are good enough, Mourinho just sucks as a coach.
If we had the Liverpool squad people would be making the same excuses. "He's got an academy player at right back!" "We've only got one good CB!" "Robertson cost basically nothing from Hull, he's not good enough!" "Salah's a Chelsea reject!" "Mane's mid-table quality, can't do it for the big clubs!"
I guarantee you that's the type of crap we'd be hearing if we had Liverpool's squad under Jose. I could easily make the argument we have a better squad than Liverpool, yet somehow Klopp is getting way more out of his team than Jose gets out of United.
Jose did not spend x amount on any player thats down to Woodward, who negotiates contracts and fees.
The issues are that the whole backline needs replacing, including Shaw, excluding De Gea.
The midfield, is unable to find a semblance of balance as you do not not have the triplet working together as a unit.
One sitting and two in front pressing and creating opportunities, or two sitting and three in front behind a striker.
The ball is not released quickly enough, so the opposition can easily get back into shape. Players are unable to do the basics and pass the ball to 5 yards to each other.
The team lacks a right forward or right winger.[Rashford, Mata and Linguard, are not the answer in this position]
The team comes across bone idle, lack endevour and application, it's not rocket science that the end result is to get the ball in the back at the net. The team should be confident with and without the ball, there is little commnication between the players, 'hey Jesse drop deep or stay wide to exploit the oppostions weakness, which shows a lack of unity and the club is littered with mercernaies rather than players with a winning mentality.
Mourinho has given up on the Man Utd project, he is not a manager who is happy just qualifying for the top four and is just waitng to be sacked.
If we lack a right forward or right winger (which I disagree with completely, considering that Andreas Pereira played the entire season at Valencia in that position and Lingard played there most of last year), then play a system that doesn't require us to use one.
Mourinho used a 4-3-1-2 to extreme effect at both Inter and Porto. Why not deploy that here? He could play 2 of Martial/Sanchez and Rashford/Lukaku up front, Mata or Lingard as the #10, Pogba on the left of a midfield three with Matic/Herrera in the middle and deep and Fred or Pereira on the right.
Adapt, maximize what you have and get results. There is no freaking excuse for us to be in 8th place right now with a negative goal difference. I'm so tired of people making all these lame excuses for Mourinho's failings. We have a squad that is at least of similar caliber to Spurs, Liverpool and Chelsea and certainly better than Arsenal's, yet we play like a Championship side. It's only because we have such good players that we're even as high as 8th right now, because with Mourinho's setup and a weaker squad we'd be in the bottom quarter of the table.
He's going to get sacked alright, for being a failure at Manchester United after 3 seasons and $400m
So what is Jose for responsible for?
Ed has been blamed for the negotiation and fees.
Players have been blamed for lack of winning mentality.
How can you spend 400 million and not be held accountable for anything? Jose knows the money is there otherwise he would not come to a rich club like this. Even if you believe we need restructuring at board level it doesn't not excuse a failing manager.
All those things you mention are his responsibility and he's done a rubbish job at fixing it.
If the team makes progress would you then give all credit for Ed and the players? No you wouldn't. The manager has a role as well.
Likewise the opposite is true. If you fail you deserve a part of the blame.
Been interesting to observe the evolution of excuses. His transfers are now the fault of the scouts for not being competent and Woodward for not negotiating well enough. All bases covered to pass accountability for 400m spent
Either it's a cult or people are incredibly stubborn.
Damn I’ve been sussed... time for a new account.
Which has nothing to do with Jose. I know thats an uncomfortable truth, but its true none the less. Ed was pissing money away long before Jose ever got here. He over paid for and then over paid in wages. Thats why we cant off load anyone. No one else will pay the wages we do. And when its average players, its even harder. We had to give most of our players away. Rooney being the poster boy.
Jose has had the time, but did he get the players he wanted? Hes been moaning like feck that he hasnt. If he has, then your 100% correct and hes been dreadful. If hes not, then he cant really be blamed can he? It wasnt moyes fault that Ed couldnt get the job done and had as over paying for Felliani was it? I know he gets the blame, but its Eds job to get the players and make the best deals. So once again the arguments against the managers falls at the feet of Ed. Jose said he didnt get what he wanted, and Ed said he didnt get them because he didnt think it was worth spending 300 million to move up one place. IMO its that attitude that is the problem at the club. And for all of Joses faults, a desire to win at any cost isnt one of them.
It's a bit of both. Interacting with Mourinho supporters is very similar to interacting with Trump supporters. Neither group will accept any facts that paint their leader in a negative light, and love to blame every problem on someone or something other than the dear leader. Also both have a similar attitude towards the press where everything they say is a lie and they have agendas against Mourinho/Trump.
The problem you'll have with that(and this maybe bullshit so dont take it as gospel) is that Jose is not only being consulted on the DOF, but that he will have final say. As I said, it might be bullshit, it probably is, but if it is true that means theres a chance that not only is Jose staying for the long term, but that his way of playing is our future regardless of whether hes here or not. Im quite happy to grind out results and ride the negative football in the short term so we can bring back a winning mentality to the club that was lost during moyes era, but Joses style for the next 10 or 20 years? I sure hope not.
Oh and no the team are not playing well, at least not consistently. But thats been the same for three managers so I just cant believe that its all on one man yet again.
Or maybe all three haven't been good enough?
What have Moyes and LVG done since they left us?
Then I guess that goes back to who is picking them then, huh?
No-one could've predicted how bad Moyes would be. And LVG and Mourinho in particular both arrived with good reputations. LVG had just led the Dutch team to an impressive semi final run of 2014 world cup.
But none of them played attacking football at United. We scored less goals at home in the last 5 years than Everton. This despite being the top scores of the league in 2012/13 and there or thereabouts most seasons under SAF.
It's not much about their reputation but the direction he wanted the team to go through by appointing a manager with certain and known philosophy. LVG was sacked from his last Bayern team after Bayern board saying clearly the team was boring and had no fun, he had a team playing similar to us but with better persons, 100% depending on Robben in creativity while restricting everyone else in possession to supply him, and his Netherlands team was extremely boring and tedious to watch despite the good results, with again the same plan revolving around giving freedom to Robben while restricting everyone else, something he did here with Martial, and Mourinho is well known for his ugly football and tendency to grind results while not playing well. He's not an unknown quantity to anyone.
It's illogical to hire LVG and Mourinho after their last stints and feel weird about the team not playing great football. They're both not known for that. It speaks more about how hired them if you ask me.
You think? Moyes came in and gutted the back room staff of winners, and replaced them with his Everton staff. That should have been a massive warning sign.
LVG came with a reputation of at the very least divisive and at most an utter prick to any and all. Jose had just came from a Chelsea squad that won the league to completely losing the dressing room and guiding them into a relegation spot. Not to mention all that stuff with doctor Eva. That’s one manager who was nothing but an mid table manager, and two that have previous for causing sever drama wherever they go. That’s off the top of my head, imagine if I actually vetted them for a high profile high pressure job.
Not moyes, not lvg, not Jose. None of them were right for us, and I for one wanted none of them here.
What concerns me is that our youth policy is going to have to be pretty strong of we're to topple City or at least match them. That wont happen under this manager. We've got quite a number of talented youngsters at the club. We need someone that will guide them and help them develop. Who has Jose developed again?
Guess everyone should be prepared for a fourth then
Get your point but no thanks. One bus-Parker for another.
What the board and a section of our fans need to see and embrace is that this clubs DNA is fast exciting adventurous football!
If that means rebuilding the football side from the youth teams up for the next 10 years so be it. If it means no trophies so be it as long as the groundwork for an exciting new group of young players, hungry for success at Manchester United, is laid
This is just being naive
Why?
Would you want to follow Mourinho with another safety first manager?
Isn’t it time to look to our past in order to embrace the future?
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