This is exactly how I feel about our squad, I think only City have a completely better set of players than us and even at that still convincingly got beat by Pool. Every other team has a bunch of very good plus average players all being made proper use of by their managers. They have better players than us in some positions and vice versa. This whole shitting on the whole squad just comes up to defend any struggling manager by his fanboys. Moyes,LVG now Jose.
The Mourinho Thread: Should he stay or go? | Sacked
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This is exactly how I feel about our squad, I think only City have a completely better set of players than us and even at that still convincingly got beat by Pool. Every other team has a bunch of very good plus average players all being made proper use of by their managers. They have better players than us in some positions and vice versa. This whole shitting on the whole squad just comes up to defend any struggling manager by his fanboys. Moyes,LVG now Jose.
When they play for their countries they seem different players. So it is down to the Manager to sort it out. I really cannot believe the players themselves are deliberately refusing to carry out the orders of the Manager. We do not seem to have any plan to move the ball between players. It is just hoof it up. No movement off the ball at all. Whose faults are those? The Manager. He has got to go now.
Investors may have overheard him, but I still believe it was to placate those fans(and lets be honest there were millions))who thought post SAF that the world was going to end.
Great job on Fellani By the way.
I know right, hadn't seen him in like 8 years
Ed didn’t buy the players he asked for. It’s not a secret, ed himself said it. Perhaps know what your talking about before injecting yourself into a conversation that’s about something else.
Ed couldn’t give a flying feck about fans. That’s been pretty clear from day one.
That’s defeats my point. We was referring to scouting. Both of our scouts identified the same player. We also watched Bernardo Silva and Laporte. What the manager requires from players will shorten his list of actually options. For instance SAF scouting teams report on Isco highlighted him as not a worth while purchase as he lacked pace and didn’t have to ability to be a match winner.
I don’t see why our scouting approach would be any different now with regards to how can ‘x’ player improve our first team.
We have revamped our scouting team and network. This has been public since Moyes. Just because all Mourinho’s signings fail doesn’t mean it’s not working. When we give managers full control it’s kinda of hard to purchase the new Kante for £2.3m when the manager recommends he wants a CM.
It may be pretty clear to those who can't forgive him for his part in the Glazer's leveraged buy-out of the club, but some of us give the guy the benefit of doubt
I'm still talking about scouting. The problem is you make it like scouts follow 1 or 2 players. The fact is scouts follow hundreds of players around the world whether they're good or not, and not everyone of them get signed or deemed good enough. Yes, City scouts followed Fred as they have followed loads of players. City backed out from his transfer after following him for some time, way long before we made our actual offer so him being followed by them doesn't prove or negate anything. He's just one out of hundreds of player they scout like any club to see if he's good enough for them or not.
Why are you making it all about a certain manager transfers failure ? Even under LVG who is well known for his good record with youngsters and deal with them better than how he deals with big names, we only signed one good and proper youngster in Martial. The fact is for years now we have been terrible in scouting proper good quality young prospects for the first team even since Fergie was here and under Moyes, LVG and Mourinho too. Maybe 1 or 2 of them were bad with dealing with youngsters but not all of them and still, our record in making good deals with these prospects isn't good at all. I'm not sure a new manager gonna change that, considering that no manager scout and follow all the leagues and all games and go to every country to identify young prospects good enough for the team. This is scouts job. You see a club like BVB who keep spotting and signing great prospects irrelevant of the manager present, it wasn't only happening under a certain manager.
So nah I honestly disagree. Our whole transfer network need to be changed as it's clearly not working. I agree that the manager shouldn't have full control on transfers but at the same time our lack of DOF and bad scouting need to be looked at.
It does when they inquire about a price and believe he was too expensive. That's a financial decision like Sanchez and like Jorginho. We aren't going to say they deemed them not good enough now are we. Things make a lot more sense if we add 'real' context.
We only signed one good proper youngster. But by chance or bad luck (Injures) he made the fan base believe (Varane, Borthwich-Jackson, Rashford, Martial, McNeir, Lingard, TMF) certain youngsters had a future at the club. So maybe if we had signed a couple more younger talents he would have improved them too, but we also required balance and that balance was experienced players to challenge for a title. He had the money why would he not recommend ready made. Name me a time where he had a budget in his career and brought youth for developement?
Again on my point you mention SAF but i've said we have updated our scouting network since then. It is not the same. What you are asking for is for development of youth with a pathway to the first team; we are behind in that manner but improving as mentioned form updating our network. However there is nothing wrong with our pathway to the first team, we always have and will continue to promote youth better than any club in the league which is proven, and is also why most of your youth team are scattered around so many clubs in the UK. At the minute it will naturally stagnate because we don't have a manager who will use the youth team (this is not a dig at Jose just the truth). To answer your point on become BVB that is pretty much impossible unless we want to become a lower level club, there's is a very good model but also benefits them financially, they can develop a Pulisic and know his stock will go up and make 100 plus % whilst not have to worry about winning the league every year. We cannot; which is why we will not sign 3 Justin Kliuverts, we don't have time and never will.
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Don’t care about the buy out, I’m judging him purely on his work with the three managers he’s hired. He’s all about image and brand. And even if you don’t buy into that, even if you don’t see or don’t believe my opinion of him to be true. There’s one thing you can’t deny, we are three managers deep under his supervison and we are no better. People say the Joses excuses are ridiculous, but how can we be three managers deep and still be such a shambles and it’s all on Jose? Even if everything about said about Jose was true, how can he be the third man in the job appointed by woody and it still not drop that woody is at least part of the problem? Moyes couldn’t get these players to play for him. Lvg couldn’t get them to play for him. And now Jose can’t get them to play for him, and yet they are still here. At what point do we stop blaming the manager and start looking at the players who can’t/won’t up their game? Or the back room staff that can’t find good players and make good deals? Sacking moyes solved nothing. Sacking lvg solved nothing. Sacking Jose will solve nothing.
We look for changes beyond the face of the squad, or we are doomed to continue on this path until stories of us as a club to feared are told as jokes on the school play grounds of our grand kids.
How many managers deep is Perez or Ambramovich? It's only 2 by the way.
No these are 2 different things, and beside, Jorginho problem wasn't money. They had a complete agreement with him and he changed his opinion, as for Sanchez, all parties, Pep included, agreed to veto the deal.
Again, my point is that just because he's followed by City it doesn't mean that the player is good enough. They followed him to see if he's good or not, then backed out from the deal and decided to not make a move for him. That actually speaks negatively about Fred not positively if you ask me.
The targets of scouts following loads of players for good time is to see if they're good enough for the club to make a move or not. The financial aspect is an advanced thing after the club agrees he's good enough for them. In Fred's case, City didn't even make an official offer to start with.
You know that the players you mentioned were all from our academies while I'm talking about singing young prospects from outside, right ?
LVG was always better at dealing with youngsters in his career than with real superstars who usually don't like his strict instructions. It speaks bad about our transfer network if, even under a manager supposedly good enough with youngsters, end up only signing one good prospect while needing to look at the academy for farther additions.
I don't see any good results for our supposed "revamped" scouting system. We're still terrible in the market, target not good enough players (under different managers) and not buying in the positions we actually need to strengthen. We need to re-look at it again.
Regarding our youth academy, since the class of 92, most of top youngsters who ended up as a success here were brought from outside, the likes of Ronaldo, Rooney, Nani, Chicarito..etc and currently Martial. Since that 92 class, I remember only Fletcher as a complete success from the academy, the rest like Welbeck..etc had good spells before ending up finally as flops, so it's important to look at buying real top young prospects with world class potential from outside. All big clubs do.
I'm not saying that we should be taking the BVB model per se. It won't work here at the same degree at them, but we, as much as we need to buy top names with loads of money, we need to also identify good prospects with world class potential and sign them for good value because if you're good at this, you may save yourself loads of money later on when your top players start to decline any you have that hot prospect you bought for cheap waiting to take over from him. It's what SAF used to do. We're simply not good at this anymore like before.
You can't criticize Woodward for doing bad deals and then when he starts to get smart about it bash him for not making another one.
Did you see the list?
Boateng
Maguire
Alderweireld
Mina
Godin
Two weren't interested and three were only available at exorbitant fees, one of which not even that good.
Scouting Alderweireld tonight.
Great to see his focus on the job in hand- strengthening the squad. Taking matters into his own hands and not letting our shit scouts pick out the crap they have been doing.
Great to see his focus on the job in hand- strengthening the squad. Taking matters into his own hands and not letting our shit scouts pick out the crap they have been doing.
I'm saying it isn't good. You say his record at Madrid was good. It wasn't. He finished 4th on 70 points with that 55% record. Del Bosque wasn't there for 4 seasons, he joined in November when it was too late to turn that season around. He won his 1st and 3rd season and had a bad season in between and was then let go despite having won twice because he wasn't though of having done a good enough job. Real at the time had the best squad in the world so it's unsurprising to be unhappy with a 55% win record and losing the league twice to Valencia.
With 55% you weren't close, you were about 10 points off. That's about 5% difference which is big in competitive sports and with Real Madrid it's definitely not good, especially when they were outspending every team in the world at that time. I don't know how your memory is but Madrid at the beginning of the century was a laughing stock at times because of how incapable they were at dominating despite the money they spent on the world's best players.
You really need to look back at the start of this conversation. The deals were criticised by another poster, who laid the blame of those deals at the feet of Jose. Jose didn’t make those deals. End of conversation. If you want a new conversation, that’s fine. Buts that’s the conversation I was having.
Again I don't see what you are doing here, you mentioned his career record which is a good one at 55% and I commented on that. You are now talking about the one season he managed Real Madrid where he had a 57% win record(in all competitions) which is a good record even if that season it wasn't enough, he still ended the season at 2 points of second place and 7 of the champions, there last month was terrible though.
Also you keep considering that 55% wins means 45% losses, it's wrong. In general you will be around the mid 70s because in general you have around 10 draws.
You responded to my post by saying that the win record was good. I disagree. That's what I'm doing here, disagreeing.
No, I don't keep considering that. 55% is 21 wins in a 38 game season.
They backed out of the deal because they felt he was too expensive. it's really that simple nothing else. They obviously thought he was good enough otherwise why inquire to buy him? The others are yes another story used to back that deals can fall through for reasons other than not believing a player is good enough. If that's the case then City felt Jorginho wasn't good enough because i'm sure if they offered him more money than Chelsea, they would have got him. Someone at City pulled the plug on taking things further, yes probably out of principle.
You'll have to remind me what your actually point is then? You want us to have a good scouting system to identify youth ready to play for United? Mbappe? Or you saying this for when our manager identifies 28 year old we can come back and provide him with Skrinier for £20m? We've tried that, it didn't work, twice. Are our scouts bad? Maybe, but thus players look pretty good for their country. Back to my Dortmund point even Pulisic needs developing, that's why he's so cheap or we can buy ready made youngsters for this level but they cost £50m plus like Lukaku or Mbappe's case £100 plus.
We can't buy 5 Martial's, it doens't work like that, otherwise we would have brought 5 Ronaldo's and Rooney's. Yes you don't see the fruits of our labour because redevelopment of a whole process takes time. City preped for Pep 2 years before he came then a further 2 before he actually won anything with them. So Chong (Example) might not look like excellent scouting business until 2021. But then again you need a manger to integrate him, the club can't do that. Your other points are too long to go into, there are plenty of player who have had good careers, I didn't just mean playing for United and meant promote by United and now have football careers i.e Danny Simpson's even Welbeck's of this world. We have a first team coach which came from a new revamp. Just give it time, it's working we just need to make sure the figure head matches suit.
and atletico have been running the same scheme since simeone took over. Playing out from the back vs kicking long is how you build your attack and not part of your defensive scheme.
You seem more concerned about a defender's ability to play from the back than his ability to defend in of itself
Exceptions are only that - exceptions. Empirical evidence supports that matured domestic transfers are more likely to succeed than young foreign ones.
Also Matic integration was a success last season. The issue has been his decline.
Luckily for me I dont rely on the opinion of others on a forum to judge my sensibility.
Your argument is only worth considering if you can show how keeping Mikhi, who was also in decline and had been consigned to the doldrums, would have made us a better squad. Sanchez provided another goal scoring threat that we needed.
But most here are revisionist who seem to have forgotten how we struggled offensively in the December prior and many were glad at the signing of Sanchez while i was one of the few to object to it.
what he would have cost us then and potentially costing us now can be debated.
- A year from now, he would be a year older.
- We might not make CL and he becomes less interested in joining us.
- Other clubs might also be interested at the lowered price point.
- A better negotiator might have gotten him for less than 70 and/or included one of our unwanted CB in the package.
- With him we might have had a better defence and be higher up in the table.
But all those are speculations. The facts though are that we needed, and the manager wanted, a better CB. Ed deemed Toby, and all the other candidates identified by the manager, as not worth their asking price. Yet we failed to sign anyone that was 'worth it'. The outcome is that our defence is as poor as it has always been, if not poorer.
So we will keep waitiwa for the stupid club owner that will sell us a quality CB at the price that we think is 'worth it'. All the while we keep firing managers cos its the managers' fault!
The scout nonsense is actually gaining momentum, you guys are good got to hand it to you
, you guys are good got to hand it to youThat wasn't his point but whatever.. And Mourinho clearly made those deals, he got his targets, pretty much by the going rates and as I said in the initial response the money wasn't the issue anyway.
I should've taken the guys advice and never bothered..
The scout nonsense is actually gaining momentum
Is this th Donald trump method of arguing?
Ffs. No he didn’t, it’s not his job. His job is to coach the team. He has no say what so ever in making deals. He asks for players, and it’s then Woodward job to make those deals happen. Yes you should have never bothered, because like him you’re talking out your chocolate starfish. You lot need to stop making shit up to have a go at Jose. Stick to what’s actually his fault, there’s plenty there to choose from. This need to make everything his fault is fecking stupid.
I would rather take that risk than continue with guaranteed failure. Next managerial hiring will say a lot more about Woodward. If Woodward does not go after an attack minded manager and instead opts for the flashier/more experienced manager, then we can move forward and really single out Woodward. He either needs to show the fans that he's learned from his past, or show the fans that he can't do the job and thus hires a proper DOF.
Regardless, there is no reason to stick with Mourinho simply because we're afraid of the unknown.
Is this th Donald trump method of arguing?
Oh I'm definitely never having any more idiotic discussions with you on this thread, I did ask one of the scouting theory inventors a question yesterday which was conveniently ignored
I guess it’s hard to have your bullshit called, but whatever. You take care.
I'm going to ask again @cheeky_backheel and @el3mel pushing the whole scout blaming crap, when Jose said in his first summer that he wanted 4 players and had given Ed his infamous list of these 4 players, and later said, on video with his own mouth, that he was happy we had gotten 3 and were working on the 4th(Pogba)... are you guys actually trying to insinuate that it's our bloody scouts writing Jose's lists now? Like he's not even responsible for the lists he has said he gives the club too?
if Mourinho gives a list with multiple candidates for a position, it is safe to assume that there is a preference among those candidates. If at the end of the day, we sign the player of least preference or none at all, how is it the fault of the list and not the person who failed in signing?
More so we have seen these bad dealings with previous managers and in other areas like selling players and wages.
Its just like the 100m January budget - now selling clubs want their piece of the cake. soon our #1 target is priced out of range so we end up overpaying for #4 or get none at all. But its mourinho's fault for putting 4 names on the list?
And how do you know again ?
The point is having a good scouting system that can identify good young prospects with world class talent while still being under radar to snatch them with good value while still buying the top or experienced players the manager wants for current time. Both are 2 separate directions and should be happening together. All big clubs do that. Madrid had got the likes of Varane, Asensio and Isco while they were still hot young prospects for cheap value and kept them on the bench for years waiting for their time to take on, while still signings top players in the squad for the present. You need to be working on both present and future. We're failure in both departments at the moment and manager can take the blame for only one of these departments.
Even though I don't know who exactly looks "pretty good" for his country but you surely realize that there's a difference between playing separated games for national team and playing 2 games a week for club ? Your performance for the club while playing 2 games a week proves you're consistent or not, while national teams are all about playing a single good game now. Definitely the likes of Bailly had great individual games here, but their consistency and injuries are more exposed on club level for obvious reasons.
I honestly can't see it but if you believe it's going to take time to improve then I don't have a problem. I can wait forever but the problem is I can't see it. It all feels randomized for me when it comes to United. We're working without a plan and waiting for good luck to click.
Mourinho said he wanted 4 players and said he had given the club the list of 4 players and expressed satisfaction about getting the 4 players, FOUR!. He said it himself! It's on fecking video! Stop making bullshit up about a list of possible candidate 1-4 and it's not safe to assume bollocks you made up because the man is on record contradicting all the shit you're spewing. Bloody hell mate
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He was at the Belgium vs Iceland game tonight, I wonder who he was scouting? I can't imagine it being a defender/Alderweireld otherwise he'd have chosen a more challenging game..
this post is all all wrong. Burnley and Leicester why are they in contention with us? Stop the excuses.
It’s funny that people think Mou is there personally to «scout» a player like Alderweireld. Dude, do you really think he needs to see more of him to make up his mind!? And against bloody Iceland? This is not the 1970’s and this is not some 16 year old striker playing in the sixth divsion in Sweden. Mou knows Alderweireld and could get 1000 hours of HD-footage of all the games he’s played. Scouting has developed quite a lot recently, it’s all based on science and computers when it comes to known talent.
He’s probably there because he’s got free tickets, a dinner with a good friend or just wanted to travel to a nice city.
He’s probably there because he’s got free tickets, a dinner with a good friend or just wanted to travel to a nice city.
The same place that told you Jorginho changed his mind.
That crap scouting system you talk of seleted Phil Jones and Rafael Varane as CB for Manchester United only for Zidane to get the other deal over the line. Varane was pretty much a United player otherwise. What top defender did Mardid sign by the way after getting Varane? Out of curiosity? Which defender did they make their manager spend Ramos money on as Varane wasn't quite their yet. There was a manager who did want a CB with those players there though and was refused. Guess who that was? lol
You can't see it because your not looking for it but why should you. If things are ran properly these things are secondary.. all we need to be looking at is the first team being run properly. Manchester United, Glazers or not have a philosophy where youth will also be given a chance, we should only judge it on the quality that gets promoted. Marcus Rashford shows its working. Scott McTomminay even though not the best in quality shows the policy is being adhered to.
Our stupid scouts haven't been able to scout Alderwerld all these years,Jose is going to scout him good and proper tonight
Ffs.
If we say the terrible football is his fault, you lot say it's the players, they are not good enough.
If we say his signings are not good enough, you say that's on the scouts and Woodward.
What IS his responsibility? Because frankly, you make it sound like he literally cannot be blamed for anything.
If his job is to coach the team, then he is doing an absolutely terrible job and should be fired immediately.
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