The Mourinho Thread: Should he stay or go? | Sacked

Is Mourinho’s time as United manager up?

  • Yes

    Votes: 2,296 77.1%
  • No

    Votes: 293 9.8%
  • Not yet - needs more time to see if he can turn it around

    Votes: 388 13.0%

  • Total voters
    2,977
Status
Not open for further replies.
Even if I accepted this (which I don't), I'd love to even see a comparison of "highlights" given the tripe on show these days... You're genuinely comparing Jose "400 Mn - we have not invested enough" Mourinho to a man that managed to win while:
- Playing 7 FBs in a team against Arsenal
- Playing with Cleverley and O'Shea as CMs
- Playing with Mikel Silvestre as a regular starter

FFS! The levels to while Jose backers will go will never cease to astound me. I await your judgment that Cleverley, Silvestre, O'Shea and co. were far superior to the players we have today. Go on. You know you want to...
Why are you trying to compare squad players from the past to our current first XI. The likes of O'Shea could easily slot in to a team with the likes of Giggs, Scholes, Rio, Rooney, Ronaldo who were making the real difference, who are the equivalent of those players now. And yes I will say that Silvestre is better than Lindelof.

I'll repeat I'm not a 'Jose backer' I'm not really that bothered if he leaves. I just don't think things will be as great as 'Jose haters' seem to think when he goes, I hope I'm wrong.
 
Yes bout no one else in that team would :lol:

A veyy one dimensional player that suits a one dimensional manager.
Pretty sure a 'system' that fits Lukaku won't win a CL anytime soon. And I put the system in quotes because we all know spamming crosses in 2018 isn't a system
 
I'd advise you to just watch a single Real Betis game. Tell me after that how many of those players you'd have wanted signed for us, how many internationals, WC winners etc. they have. Just watch them. That's what a good coach / manager achieves.
I will keep an eye out. If the club puts a structure in place and hires a coach to play a certain style I'm all for it.
 
Are we just judging teams on where they are in the table after 12 gaames? I've watched a fair bit of Spurs and Arsenal and in my opinion neither have been anything special and been getting points they could easily have lost with a bit less luck. Where are Burnley this season after finishing 7th, why don't they look like maintaining it? Where did Leicester go after winning the league?

City, Liverpool, Chelsea and Spurs all have a better first XI than us in my opinion so I expect to finish behind them. You might see it differently that's fine.

Do we know how much of the coaching Mourinho does? SAF didn't used to coach much he left it to the likes of Meulensteen, Queiroz and Phelan. I agree we need to be more cohesive in attack but we've looked like this for years under multiple managers and coaches now.

I'm so tired of reading this crap. It's only really true for City.

Let's take Liverpool for example. The reason it seems like they have a better first XI than us is because the players they have are much better coached, drilled and they actually have an attacking system that's properly implemented each match.

If I took you back in time 2 years, you would pick Martial over Mane (people didn't even want Mane when LVG was linked to him, said he wasn't United quality), Sanchez over Salah, Lukaku over Firmino. Shaw would certainly be picked over Andy Robertson who was bought for almost nothing from Hull and Alexander-Arnold is from their academy. De Gea is certainly better than Alisson. Pogba is better than every single midfielder at Liverpool, and guys like Mata, Fred and Herrera are at least similar to or better than the likes of Wijnaldum, Henderson, etc.

Really the only area that if you went back 2 years and saw the squads now you would say Liverpool is stronger is with VVD, who is better than every CB we have. That's it.

The problem is Mourinho sucks. He doesn't get the best out of his players, he freezes guys out of the team, he plays favourites, we have no semblance of a plan or attacking system from match to match.

Give Sarri or Klopp or Guardiola this team and it would look significantly better. Arsenal doesn't even really have a particularly good squad other than a few guys like Lacazette, Auba and Ozil for Pete's sake and they look miles better than us.
 
1. We were a better team. Individually, not too many (don't know about you) would say that Sanchez, Martial and Pogba (to name but 3) are not "exciting", but my word, as a team, it was brilliant - and exciting to watch!
That team (07/08 vintage) had a very "exciting" front 3 individually. Nobody would call our midfielders / defenders etc. of that era "exciting".
2. We won a hat-trick of PL titles, won the CL, won the double and obliterated domestic opponents; we made the CL final with regularity too - I'd call that fairly dominant
3. This isn't about being "dominant"; it's about not being dominated like we are. We're rubbish.

I'd advise you to just watch a single Real Betis game. Tell me after that how many of those players you'd have wanted signed for us, how many internationals, WC winners etc. they have. Just watch them. That's what a good coach / manager achieves.
I don't disagree with your general point but Patrice Evra was a fecking exciting defender. I loved watching him play.

I'd call Scholes and Giggs exciting players, too. Back then even Anderson was one. But now I'm sad.
 
You're missing an element in transfers which is the scouts job. Not each transfer comes with the manager scouting them themselves. It makes far more logical sense that the likes of Bailly, Lindelof and Fred were scouted and chosen by scouts and Mourinho said "Ok, go for it". Matic was his signings I agree, but it's not as simple as "manager or CEO" in choosing the targets.

But it's the managers responsibility to set the criterias for who/what to look for, the scouts will only recommend players based on the managers requirements. Unless the scouts and Woodward are buying players from over Mourinhos head then what's the issue?
 
Jose is a very good manager. The problem is United is a club where performance is just as important as anything else. I think the idea was the next manager after Sir Alex couldn't win ...the impossible job. I think the job IS still impossible. Last season baring our exit in Europe and the cup final, we can say we did well but we were well short in the league. I think that's about as far as we can go with this team.

For me we have a few choices. Our identity can be you score 5? We score 6 or we can look to win games 1-0 and be efficient. I think the issue is the core and the width of the team. I was never Carricks biggest fan and Matic is even slower and don't have the pass Michael did. He needs to step up. I think midfield, we're waiting for Herrera or Fred etc to make their mark. Herrera looked great at one point but now seems so so.

It's the impossible job for Jose, because City have spent so much money, they have destroyed the market but also our mentality is shot. You would think after winning a few trophies under Jose they would kick on but I think the club didn't back Jose enough. Jose has been unlucky, in that many people would have expected Sanchez to be a star here and maybe he can still be - but we're still waiting. Centrally he could be a great option.

So I don't think Jose can win. The club needs an injection of excitement. That will not happen under Jose. For Jose to succeed I think the club would have to be sold tbh. It's such a difficult situationand we have yet to see maybe the influence of his assistants.
 
We've always paid a United tax going back to the days of Sir Matt Busby so nothing new there, and have you ever stopped to think maybe, just maybe Ed with his war-chest boast was more to reassure the United fans that money(and lots of it)was available and would be spent(and by jove it was spent, and is still being spent) after 4 or 5 years of us spending sod all, rather than him just opening his mouth before he'd engaged his brain.

It was never about reassuring fans. Come on, its about reassuring stock markets.
 
What are you even on about. My post was about you lot talking about Jose should be allowed to 'replace' most of his transfers because you keep claiming Pep has replaced a bunch of people which is a fat lie. Whoever is responsible for the spending in the end we have very expensive team playing soul destroying football, again should I blame the Glazers?

ffs. :rolleyes:
 
What deals have we bent over backwards for? If anything Woodward has been criticized of not spending ENOUGH.

José probably has asked for 'Santa' though, several times in fact, which is why there's a rift at all. Santa being the likes of Alderweireld and Maguire for example who their clubs wouldn't part with for anything other than the exorbitant.

Don't you think Mourinho understands the way the market works at the moment, you think he's so fecking naive he asks for Matic not fully well understanding Chelsea are going to ask for a premium whilst dealing with a direct rival?

You don't think Woodward and José communicate at all during the transfer process, that at no point Woodward notifies the manager of the progress with the list handed down?
If the manager actually was that fecking nonchalant then he'd hardly have the right to be aggrieved come the end of the window now would he?

The contract situation clearly has become an issue for the club. But even there, you'd think Mourinho would take an interest in contract issues, (besides deciding who gets one of course) knowing what ripple effects they can have on the team.
But then, high salaries is a double-edged sword and one of the few advantages we can still pull in contract negotiations when the actual football project isn't enough.

So now hes not spent enough? I really which you people would make up your mind on what your criticizing Jose for. Is it spending too much or too little? Pick one.
 
He should stay till the end of this season...Lets support him until the end of the season,we can take a call after that...
 
He should stay till the end of this season...Lets support him until the end of the season,we can take a call after that...
What's going to be different at the end of the season? What's with this obsession in football with waiting for the inevitable to happen before doing anything about it?
 
The right answers to lots of the questions being posed here are actually quite simple, but to really get to them is in many ways complex.

To start with, you don't need to be an expert in medicine to hire a good surgeon for your hospital. Just like you don't need to be the world's brightest mathematician to hire a good mathematics professor for your univerity. A basic knowledge in both fields helps, of course, but a little is sufficient.

What you do need to have is the right criteria when selecting for the best candidates. Things like general intelligence, a good ability to explain their work in the field, a good ability to explain their values and why they work the way they work and why that is the best way to operate within that field. Additionally, things like a generally pleasant attitude is important. Especially important in roles where that person is some sort of team leader, since their attitude will have a great impact on the team they are leading.

Our hiring process has been lacking any of those things, as far as I can tell. Since Sir Alex we first had a Scottish guy who seems like a decent fellow overall, but whom it doesn't take more than 10 minutes of listening to, to figure out that he does not posses the intelligence or leadership qualities needed to lead a top football club, no offense to him, it's just the harsh truth.

Then we hired a man whose insistence on a specific football "philosophy" was extremely rigid, outdated, and overall uninspiring to the team and limiting to our progress in the long run. These things should have also been painfully obvious if anyone at the club spent some time seriously discussing football with LVG.

Finally we hired Mourinho. Not a lot of description needed for him but, it suffices to say, it should have also only taken a short conversation, or a short youtube search, to figure out he was never going to be a good fit, in the long run, to manage our club. Anything further than letting him take over some training sessions during the summer for variety's sake was him being in the job for too long.

What I'm trying to say is - there has been a lot of conversation about what types of things bring success. Is it being a 'real man'? Is it praying to the football gods? Is it playing a certain style of football? Is it playing Fellaini up top? Is it being bald (like recent history suggests)? Is it being charismatic? Is it being likable? Is it being a legend in the sport?

There is an answer to this question here which is, and has been, there for anyone who has seriously tried to figure it out. And the answer goes something like this: While it is not easy to predict what the best attributes that lead to success are, there is one that stands out and is possessed by the vast majority of successful people, particularly when it comes to management and leadership positions: intelligence.

Jose certainly believes that he is extremely intelligent but watching him contradict himself every other week should be proof that he is in fact supremely confused. Going even further, his renowned reputation as a manager who understands psychology to a high degree is completely laughable. He doesn't even seem to understand his own emotions most of the time, with plenty of examples to point to since the beginning of this season.

I obviously don't know Jose in his personal life but in his managerial career, especially since his second sacking from Chelsea, he has too often behaved like a textbook narcissist. And they all think that they are much smarter than they actually are, and they all refuse to change their stubborn ways, and they all point to anything and everything around them to justify it when they begin failing at whatever it is they are supposed to be doing. They will especially do this with things that are true.

That's the tough part for people to understand - a cunning narcissist, when failing, will not just begin blaming the weather or the fact that he woke up in the wrong side of the bed that morning. He will instead blame things that are actually kind of true, but blow them out of proportion just the right amount so that you feel like you are losing your mind. This is also called gaslighting. The desired reaction is - well he can't be wrong because what he is saying kind of makes sense - our players do kind of suck, the board does seem to have been doing a bad job at managing the club since SAF retired, City do seem to have spent a lot of money, Pogba does seem to post a lot on Instagram, Martial does seem to always have a resting b*tch face on.

Anyone can point to problems. The best leaders and managers, and more specifically the most intelligent people and the most successful people at most things, have never, as a general rule, been ones to blame others. Imagine Mourinho being in charge of Spurs, for example, this season with all that has been happening there. It would be a total catastrophe. Poch, in contrast, has for the most part continued on being professional, with the understanding that he can only play his part and blaming others will serve as no help to anyone or to the club. This is not to say that he would never be critical. It is simply the case that it takes a deeper understanding of when to be critical and when not to be in order to make a great leader or manager. That understanding comes from being intelligent. Mourinho lacks this understanding and he has always lacked it.

I have said all of this, and I haven't even gotten on to perhaps one of the most essential aspects of Mourinho - his general outlook on football. Yes, he has won a lot, but like it has been said a thousand times, football has changed. It was always going to change. Just like the narcissistic traits in his personality, his outlook on football mirrors his outlook on life - it's negative, reactive, and regressive. He believes that the best way to win a game is to make less mistakes than the other team. That in itself is such a terrible line of thinking that I don't even know where to begin with it.

So I will conclude with this: we should all try to get past what is necessarily true and what isn't about Manchester United. I don't mean forget it or ignore it, I don't mean not to talk about whether Smalling is good enough or not, by all means we should keep talking about that. But we should primarily attempt to look beyond it for a second. There are a million things wrong with our club at the moment, and it is easy to send ourselves into a frenzy not knowing which thing to start with, or which thing contradicts another and needs no addressing. It is never any help to panic. We have, since SAF retired, panicked like crazy. It has led to many bad decisions and now we find ourselves where we are - with a million bad decisions and an inability to decide what to do next. The truth is - it doesn't matter where we start, we just have to start from somewhere. Sacking Mourinho seems like a good place.


Superbly written mate.

Ive been saying this for years, I honestly give up on when people are going to realise that Jose's constant jibberish, which is only made worse when he totally contradicts himself days/weeks/months later, is not some sort of 'next level mind games' but just the last ramblings of a narcissistic football dinosaur on the verge of a breakdown.

If the average person on the street contradicted themselves as much as he did then surely their mental state would be questioned.
 
The right answers to lots of the questions being posed here are actually quite simple, but to really get to them is in many ways complex.

To start with, you don't need to be an expert in medicine to hire a good surgeon for your hospital. Just like you don't need to be the world's brightest mathematician to hire a good mathematics professor for your univerity. A basic knowledge in both fields helps, of course, but a little is sufficient.

What you do need to have is the right criteria when selecting for the best candidates. Things like general intelligence, a good ability to explain their work in the field, a good ability to explain their values and why they work the way they work and why that is the best way to operate within that field. Additionally, things like a generally pleasant attitude is important. Especially important in roles where that person is some sort of team leader, since their attitude will have a great impact on the team they are leading.

Our hiring process has been lacking any of those things, as far as I can tell. Since Sir Alex we first had a Scottish guy who seems like a decent fellow overall, but whom it doesn't take more than 10 minutes of listening to, to figure out that he does not posses the intelligence or leadership qualities needed to lead a top football club, no offense to him, it's just the harsh truth.

Then we hired a man whose insistence on a specific football "philosophy" was extremely rigid, outdated, and overall uninspiring to the team and limiting to our progress in the long run. These things should have also been painfully obvious if anyone at the club spent some time seriously discussing football with LVG.

Finally we hired Mourinho. Not a lot of description needed for him but, it suffices to say, it should have also only taken a short conversation, or a short youtube search, to figure out he was never going to be a good fit, in the long run, to manage our club. Anything further than letting him take over some training sessions during the summer for variety's sake was him being in the job for too long.

What I'm trying to say is - there has been a lot of conversation about what types of things bring success. Is it being a 'real man'? Is it praying to the football gods? Is it playing a certain style of football? Is it playing Fellaini up top? Is it being bald (like recent history suggests)? Is it being charismatic? Is it being likable? Is it being a legend in the sport?

There is an answer to this question here which is, and has been, there for anyone who has seriously tried to figure it out. And the answer goes something like this: While it is not easy to predict what the best attributes that lead to success are, there is one that stands out and is possessed by the vast majority of successful people, particularly when it comes to management and leadership positions: intelligence.

Jose certainly believes that he is extremely intelligent but watching him contradict himself every other week should be proof that he is in fact supremely confused. Going even further, his renowned reputation as a manager who understands psychology to a high degree is completely laughable. He doesn't even seem to understand his own emotions most of the time, with plenty of examples to point to since the beginning of this season.

I obviously don't know Jose in his personal life but in his managerial career, especially since his second sacking from Chelsea, he has too often behaved like a textbook narcissist. And they all think that they are much smarter than they actually are, and they all refuse to change their stubborn ways, and they all point to anything and everything around them to justify it when they begin failing at whatever it is they are supposed to be doing. They will especially do this with things that are true.

That's the tough part for people to understand - a cunning narcissist, when failing, will not just begin blaming the weather or the fact that he woke up in the wrong side of the bed that morning. He will instead blame things that are actually kind of true, but blow them out of proportion just the right amount so that you feel like you are losing your mind. This is also called gaslighting. The desired reaction is - well he can't be wrong because what he is saying kind of makes sense - our players do kind of suck, the board does seem to have been doing a bad job at managing the club since SAF retired, City do seem to have spent a lot of money, Pogba does seem to post a lot on Instagram, Martial does seem to always have a resting b*tch face on.

Anyone can point to problems. The best leaders and managers, and more specifically the most intelligent people and the most successful people at most things, have never, as a general rule, been ones to blame others. Imagine Mourinho being in charge of Spurs, for example, this season with all that has been happening there. It would be a total catastrophe. Poch, in contrast, has for the most part continued on being professional, with the understanding that he can only play his part and blaming others will serve as no help to anyone or to the club. This is not to say that he would never be critical. It is simply the case that it takes a deeper understanding of when to be critical and when not to be in order to make a great leader or manager. That understanding comes from being intelligent. Mourinho lacks this understanding and he has always lacked it.

I have said all of this, and I haven't even gotten on to perhaps one of the most essential aspects of Mourinho - his general outlook on football. Yes, he has won a lot, but like it has been said a thousand times, football has changed. It was always going to change. Just like the narcissistic traits in his personality, his outlook on football mirrors his outlook on life - it's negative, reactive, and regressive. He believes that the best way to win a game is to make less mistakes than the other team. That in itself is such a terrible line of thinking that I don't even know where to begin with it.

So I will conclude with this: we should all try to get past what is necessarily true and what isn't about Manchester United. I don't mean forget it or ignore it, I don't mean not to talk about whether Smalling is good enough or not, by all means we should keep talking about that. But we should primarily attempt to look beyond it for a second. There are a million things wrong with our club at the moment, and it is easy to send ourselves into a frenzy not knowing which thing to start with, or which thing contradicts another and needs no addressing. It is never any help to panic. We have, since SAF retired, panicked like crazy. It has led to many bad decisions and now we find ourselves where we are - with a million bad decisions and an inability to decide what to do next. The truth is - it doesn't matter where we start, we just have to start from somewhere. Sacking Mourinho seems like a good place.

Promote this guy. Well conversed and talks sense.
 
So now hes not spent enough? I really which you people would make up your mind on what your criticizing Jose for. Is it spending too much or too little? Pick one.

The main critique that Mourinhos apologists level at Woodward is that he didn't back him enough?
 
The main critique that Mourinhos apologists level at Woodward is that he didn't back him enough?

No, its that he didnt back him in the summer. Not that he didnt back him enough. Theres a difference. And in any case, the original point I was replying to was that we had spend more on worse players than city. And Jose getting the blame for it. Which just isnt true. He can pick the players, but he doesnt make the deals. He doesnt set the wage structure. Thats all woodward. Point at our style of play, formation, tactics, player positioning etc etc and Ill agree. Point at shit deals being made, sorry, thats not his job.
 
... Sacking Mourinho seems like a good place.

You wrote a lot and made many points.
But what happens after Jose is gone. What then?
Surely what happens next is the most important thing, regarding this club.
Any idiot can sack people, but it's what happens after the sacking is what separates an idiot from someone who knows what they are doing.

I simply do not trust the board to make any changes after Jose is gone. They'll hire another manager, who will also fail and get fired in 2-3 years.
 
(people didn't even want Mane when LVG was linked to him, said he wasn't United quality),

Who were these people? I was terribly annoyed when Liverpool snapped him. I was truly surprised to see mourinho not wanting him for his work rate engine and technical qualities.
 
You wrote a lot and made many points.
But what happens after Jose is gone. What then?
Surely what happens next is the most important thing, regarding this club.
Any idiot can sack people, but it's what happens after the sacking is what separates an idiot from someone who knows what they are doing.

I simply do not trust the board to make any changes after Jose is gone. They'll hire another manager, who will also fail and get fired in 2-3 years.

He talks about what a lot of fans agree on - that Woodward does possibly need to improve ASAP or be sacked him self - however that does not allow Jose to continue managing this team the way he has been doing. There is just too many mistakes at the club, woodward being one and then Jose being another, players being another one on top.

Can we get rid of all the players in one transfer window? Is it easier and quicker to jump on to a different game plan by sacking woodward or by sacking Jose?

Ultimately alot of the Jose fans right now are going through the same thing that LVG fans went through such as myself and others - we back then would have rather seen it continue due to belief in the manager more so than the manager that we were attempting to bring in and the other problems on top such as woodward, the board, the scouts etc.

However, getting LVG out at that point seemed like a better idea to start on a new blank slate almost instantly by bringing Jose in.

If it was a good option for many who wanted LVG out back then- Jose is ultimately in no different position now. It's better we just restart the plan again rather than continue something which was marginally only good enough in the first place if at all.
 
You wrote a lot and made many points.
But what happens after Jose is gone. What then?
Surely what happens next is the most important thing, regarding this club.
Any idiot can sack people, but it's what happens after the sacking is what separates an idiot from someone who knows what they are doing.

I simply do not trust the board to make any changes after Jose is gone. They'll hire another manager, who will also fail and get fired in 2-3 years.
Then we, in the good case scenario, take a much more serious approach to hiring with a much better understanding of what a good candidate looks like.

I guess you're asking, more specifically, who? To be honest I'm not sure mate. Personally, I don't think experience is as important as competence, because experience is much easier to get. What that means is I'm not too bothered if our next manager comes from the Championship, as long as he can think and speak sense on so many of the topics we are discussing on this forum, along with the other qualities that make a good manager that I touched upon.

So yeah, I don't particularly trust our board either, but given that they are a collection of people, as opposed to just one, I hope they have collectively learned enough from the past 5 years to make a better appointment than the previous 3. We all learn by trial and error in some sense.
 
Who were these people? I was terribly annoyed when Liverpool snapped him. I was truly surprised to see Mourinho not wanting him for his work rate engine and technical qualities.
We were first seriously linked Summer 15 before most even knew who Martial was. I thought he would be a good signing for the right wing (which we still don't have) but many laughed at the idea because he was from a lower club.
 
None of these players apart from Pogba has won the CL or the WC. So it does not matter if a Manager has not won much. The players are in the same boat. A good young manager who has a good plan and can get us to play good football is what is needed now. I have a feeling that we sacked LVG a bit early. For some odd reason the players he got was either not buying into his philosophy or they could not do it.
I also felt that by forcing Giggs onto him, he was hamstrung in the way he wanted to play or to operate.
I just saw the Rooney goals and it is unacceptable the way we play and the players we buy. Lukaku is not fit to even lace Rooney's boots. I do not think any of the players we have bar Pogba could get into any of the previous United teams. Even Smith and Kleberson were better than what we have today. Even Djemba x 2.
 
But it's the managers responsibility to set the criterias for who/what to look for, the scouts will only recommend players based on the managers requirements. Unless the scouts and Woodward are buying players from over Mourinhos head then what's the issue?

It's not "over Mourinho head". Scouts simply scout loads and loads of players all over the world and suggest some good names that they feel they will be good additions to the club, then it's up to manager and CEO to agree on getting the player or not, ao it's still up to us but you can't be believing that all players any club in the world sign is 100% scouted and chosen by the manager and CEO themselves. Things are more complicated and there's a big circuit whem it comes to transfers. You find certain clubs that are better than others in getting unknown young talents whoever their manage/CEO. They have better scouting network.

You ask why will Ed know the likes of Bailly or Fred but it's the same for Mourinho who was surely not following Villarreal or Ukrainian league. Scouts do though.
 
It's not "over Mourinho head". Scouts simply scout loads and loads of players all over the world and suggest some good names that they feel they will be good additions to the club, then it's up to manager and CEO to agree on getting the player or not, ao it's still up to us but you can't be believing that all players any club in the world sign is 100% scouted and chosen by the manager and CEO themselves. Things are more complicated and there's a big circuit whem it comes to transfers. You find certain clubs that are better than others in getting unknown young talents whoever their manage/CEO. They have better scouting network.

You ask why will Ed know the likes of Bailly or Fred but it's the same for Mourinho who was surely not following Villarreal or Ukrainian league. Scouts do though.

So alternative we should have copied who’s model? Seeing as Fred was on Man City’s radar and Bailly was considered an amazing COO until the injuries?

Assuming you feel our scouts aren’t doing their job right.
 
The manager is going nowhere and rightly so.

Lets park this until we don't get in the top 4/end of the season.

Get behind him and the players.
 
So alternative we should have copied who’s model? Seeing as Fred was on Man City’s radar and Bailly was considered an amazing COO until the injuries?

Assuming you feel our scouts aren’t doing their job right.

I'm not sure why this keep getting mentioned, while ignoring the point that City backed out from this transfer way long time before we made our official move to him. Just one of hundreds of players they scout per year, like any other club really, doesn't mean they're going to sign him. I'm not saying he'll end up being poor or good, but there's nothing to look at here.

Well they're doing their job but I don't see an adequate one. The last 2 young talents we have signed in the last 9 years or though were De Gea and Martial, the former was already well known. Otherwise, the rest ended up being absolute failure. That includes the era of 4 managers, one of them was one of the best when it comes to developing young talents (SAF).

So yeah I think we need to revamp our transfer policy and network. We don't need to copy anyone's model. We need to put our own and work better.
 
The manager is going nowhere and rightly so.

Lets park this until we don't get in the top 4/end of the season.

Get behind him and the players.
A bit rich coming from someone who constantly calls the players shit.
 
You ask why will Ed know the likes of Bailly or Fred but it's the same for Mourinho who was surely not following Villarreal or Ukrainian league. Scouts do though.
I remember Bailly said Mourinho called him personally to persuade him to join us over City.
And With Lindelof he obviously knows the Portuguese league well and I think he even went to some Sweden games before the deal was announced.
Fred is a strange one and was probably recommend seeing mourinho has no intention of playing him but the rest are his choices without a doubt.
 
I remember Bailly said Mourinho called him personally to persuade him to join us over City.
And With Lindelof he obviously knows the Portuguese league well and I think he even went to some Sweden games before the deal was announced.
Fred is a strange one and was probably recommend seeing Mourinho has no intention of playing him but the rest are his choices without a doubt.

Again, I didn't say things go over the manager head. Scouts simply scout players and suggest some names, then the manager agrees on them and say "go for it". Mourinho calling Bailly to complete the transfer doesn't negate that. It's simply more complicated than "either manager chose this player or it was forced on him". It's a circuit in which everyone does their job.

Yeah Lindelof was mostly Mourinho signing, as well the likes of Matic, Lukaku, Zlatan and Pogba. The point that some transfers weren't his choice isn't a negative one either imo. It's the problem of us not scouting good players that's all.
 
No, its that he didnt back him in the summer. Not that he didnt back him enough. Theres a difference. And in any case, the original point I was replying to was that we had spend more on worse players than city. And Jose getting the blame for it. Which just isnt true. He can pick the players, but he doesnt make the deals. He doesnt set the wage structure. Thats all woodward. Point at our style of play, formation, tactics, player positioning etc etc and Ill agree. Point at shit deals being made, sorry, thats not his job.

How did we not back him?

Did we not go out and sign two players for him in the summer, about 70 millions worth? Just because Mourinho asks for a CB doesn't mean that they can be delivered. City were definitely in for Alexis and Jorginho, maybe Fred too but you don't see Guardiola throwing fits do you?

Guardiola on Sanchez:

“In my period at Barcelona, in my period at Bayern Munich and now here, I never put pressure on the club to say I want those players when the club believes and says it is too much,” said the City boss.

“I respect that decision and I move forward and look for another solution because the stability of the club is the most important thing."

The deals were mostly fine, it's Mourinhos blatant inability to identify the right areas for inprovement or manage the squad properly that's made them look idiotic.
 
It's not "over Mourinho head". Scouts simply scout loads and loads of players all over the world and suggest some good names that they feel they will be good additions to the club, then it's up to manager and CEO to agree on getting the player or not, ao it's still up to us but you can't be believing that all players any club in the world sign is 100% scouted and chosen by the manager and CEO themselves. Things are more complicated and there's a big circuit whem it comes to transfers. You find certain clubs that are better than others in getting unknown young talents whoever their manage/CEO. They have better scouting network.

You ask why will Ed know the likes of Bailly or Fred but it's the same for Mourinho who was surely not following Villarreal or Ukrainian league. Scouts do though.

Ultimately it's all decided by Mourinho though, we don't have a DoF or any other entity in the club deciding on signings. Mourinho asks for a certain type of player, unless there's an obvious target he collects reports of the most recommended players based on his criterias and then (hopefully) studies them and selects the most suitable targets. Mourinho clearly doesn't want to be a 'head coach', he wants to be a manager, but then he should realize that it's his fecking responsibility that the club is recruiting well and developing.
 
Again, our defence is nothing like Atletico's. In fact very few defenses are e.g. there is no ball playing CB, they play as 4-4 defensive unit (back line tied to defense not lone DM), level of aggression in tackling, less aerial threat in la liga etc So stop using it as a measure against Toby. Also the quality of Atletico's backline is much higher and difficult to break into. The Spurs system is actually more similar to ours: one physical+ one ball playing CB, +lone DM.

While there is no absolute certainty that Toby would make us better, but its almost as certain as you can get with a transfer e.g. matured player, played in PL and CL,for one of the top 6 clubs, no language barrier etc. Anybody else that is younger, coming from outside the PL, doesnt speak english, and/or from a lesser club would have more uncertainty about succeeding.
We swapped Sanchez for Mkhi and had a better squad after the transfer. The failure to reap full benefit were due to it being a mid-season transfer and mainly how Mourinho handled his integration (i.e. would things have been different if he was introduced on the right and Martial kept his place). While we dont have full details into what influenced Mourinho's decision, but there is a legitimate question to be asked but that does not change that Sanchez made us better. Was he worth the astronomical wages and contract - absolutely no imo
The longevity and value of the player is a different argument, which is why i am usually against signing older players unless for free (Zlatan) or on the cheap.

But in getting an experienced CB, I dont see how we can avoid it and Alderweireld would seem the best value. If the rumored numbers are true, then I agree with waiting till the summer to get him, but that should not have barred us from then getting another young CB, LB/RB or DM to stregthen the defence. The drop in quality of Matic is a significant contributor to our defensive woes.
It is not an assumption that Toby is currently the better player. i dont think it should even be a question.

That he is the better player is the premise of the transfer (otherwise why buy him) and his success after transfer would not have been any more uncertain than any other target. We can spend 200m on a player and there would still be uncertainty about his succeeding at the club, and maybe more so with the pressure of a very high transfer fee. But we cannot use that uncertainty as an excuse cos then we wont sign anyone of worth.

Read better, I said "at that moment" not now, this Atletico. That Atletico wasn't always dodging the press by keeping the ball on the ground, in fact they were hoofing it long quite a bit especially with Costa up front during that time. You're arguing with yourself again, because it's quite clear I specified Atletico at that time, not at this moment.

I mean you should probably go back again and read one more time for that point you're making again, since I already made example with "matured" EPL players in Matić and Sanchez. But for example that other Sanchez, the CB, he came quite young to EPL for a far weaker league and he fit in quite nicely with Spurs...there's also Martial example as well.

The fact you're defending your stance that Sanchez has improved us is quite shocking tbh, and your stubborn persistence with that narrative only makes you look delusional in pretty much everyone's eyes. Miki was never as bad for us as Sanchez was and is, plus Sanchez has entire pre-season this time and he's still shiit. But hey don't let your thoughts to get soiled with reason.

Toby can be very good be best buy for the value in the summer or even in January, assuming Levy can be reasoned with to at least make some money on Toby, but Toby last summer was anything but good value buy. He would have cost us in the range of 70 million that's ridiculous for a player hitting 30 with 1 year left on the contract.
 
The manager is going nowhere and rightly so.

Lets park this until we don't get in the top 4/end of the season.

Get behind him and the players.

A big useless lummox.

Up there with Darmian as being one of the shittest players to ever play for us. I have no idea what our scouts were thinking.

Hmmm...
 
Lets park it till the end of the season and then we can all assess where we're at, how we can all move forward. If people still think a new coach is required and there are better options available then that will be up for discussion.
 
This CA1 fella has to be Mourinho. They seem to have the same pathologcial tendencies. With all the contradictions it's like talking to a guy with amnesia
 
Lol. This CA1 chap is being outed in the Andreas Pereira thread as well :lol:

I can't escape this posters contradictions :lol:

He just called Pereira rubbish and the Brazilian Jonjo Shelvey in that thread.

What is your agenda CA1? You don't have a clear set of principles. In thread you attack Pereira (who you praised a few weeks ago) then you tell to back the manager and players.

A lot of us have a clear idea of how we want our club to be and the direction we want it to take.
 
Ultimately it's all decided by Mourinho though, we don't have a DoF or any other entity in the club deciding on signings. Mourinho asks for a certain type of player, unless there's an obvious target he collects reports of the most recommended players based on his criterias and then (hopefully) studies them and selects the most suitable targets. Mourinho clearly doesn't want to be a 'head coach', he wants to be a manager, but then he should realize that it's his fecking responsibility that the club is recruiting well and developing.

He asks for certain types of players, but not any player who meets this criteria will be deemed good enough for us. I mean if he asks for strong and physical CB for example, not all strong and physical CBs are good enough to play for a top club. It's the scouts job to identify the players who are actually good enough while meeting this criteria before suggesting them on the manager to ask for his opinion based on what they collected. This is accompanied by other players the manager ask CEO to try and get them, which are mostly the big names like Pogba, Zlatan, Matic, Lukaku ..etc. The unknown players are usually scouts chosen, yes according to certain criteria, but this criteria is different from the fact them being good enough or not here.

The point our transfers for the unknown or talented players have been mostly underwhelming for many many years ever since last SAF years, mostly after selling Ronaldo we didn't sign any proper young talents who were deemed good enough for us other than De Gea and Martial, with the former being well known. At this point you need to start questioning our transfer policy and network.

Managers are blamed on their big signings, as it's specific to each one, but our failure in getting proper unknown or young talents have been terrible for years and you can't simply throw it on whoever is managing the club. The manager puts the criteria he likes, it's up to scouts to identify good players that meed this criteria, not just any player who meets it.

It's a circuit of everyone doing their job and you can't simply go and blame one person for the failure of circuit. Each one has his role to be blamed for. Mourinho should be blamed for getting us Lukaku for example, and if Lindelof flopped, it'll be his fault too.
 
For all the excuses of money being spent, I can't understand the logic. Yes we (City) have outspent you in the years since both managers arrived and we finished separated by goal difference, but you've still out spent most the rest of the league and there's no way you should be performing as badly as you are.

For me there are only three real possibilities. Either your players are underperforming, they're crap or Mourinho cant manage them properly. Personally I don't see how players like Pogba, Mata, Sanchez and Lukaku can all be considered crap, or how they can all underperform so drastically, simultaneously. So barring those two I'd have to assign blame to Mourinho's management. That being said, whether you get rid of him and who you bring in instead *shrugs*.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.