The Mourinho Thread: Should he stay or go? | Sacked

[Canagel]

Saying he wouldn't have been a massive upgrade implicitly admits he is an upgrade, just not massive i.e. better than what we currently had. Same with Maguire and Boateng. Even Mina would be better than Jones cos at least he is more likely to be available.

Those that are massive upgrades were considered unattainable. So our club's solution is to do nothing and keep with our mediocre group but its Mourinho's fault that we are leaking goals.

We either cough up the money for top quality or live with what mediocrity brings.

Apart from Jones they're not mediocre. Not world class but not shit either.
You don't need 11 world class players every single position to be good team.
They're all solid international defenders and better than what they're showing. Why do we have worse defensive record than 10 or 11 other mid table teams?
If there's not clear world class target attainable then it's not worth adding a "decent" defender on top of 3/4 other "decent" defenders. You just end up with bloated squad and will need to replace in short term as we see already with Matic. That risk is there.
It's been exagerrated further by playing mctominay and herrera at CB to prove a point.

 

[Mcking]

The club continues to employ him, yet they’re unwilling to purchase the players he says he needs to succeed.
Like I said they need to either buy the players or sack the manager. Doing neither isn’t going to bring any positive outcomes.
Everyone is blaming certain players or Jose and it’s all just getting silly. People need to step back and see the bigger picture. If the owners have no vision on how they want the club ran, then we’ll just rotate managers and have huge ongoing transfer windows. It’ll be a never ending war in here!

Mourinho has been well and truly backed. Only two potential transfers have failed to materialize so far. 11 players have been signed for him and most have been utter failures. The manager have to milk and get the best from his first group of signings before wanting more. One player wouldn't change anything if eleven couldn't. Even the two players that were signed for him in the summer are nowhere to be seen. The three signed the year before are grossly underperforming. The manager have to make the board trust him and he seems to be losing that initial trust they had in him.

 

[Mcking]

Apart from Jones they're not mediocre. Not world class but not shit either. You don't need 11 world class players every single position to be good team.
They're all solid international defenders and better than what they're showing. Why do we have worse defensive record than 10 or 11 other mid table teams?

And we have spent over £60m on center backs since Mourinho joined. More than at least ten teams. Yet we are leaking goals left, right, center. We have spent £180m on midfielders, yet we can't dominate the teams that have spent far less than us. We have spent over £100m on forwards, yet tens of teams are outscoring us. The money spent excuse is a ludicrous excuse. One or two more players wouldn't make any difference in the midst of these shit show.

 

[Canagel]

And we have spent over £60m on center backs since Mourinho joined. More than at least ten teams. Yet we are leaking goals left, right, center. We have spent £180m on midfielders, yet we can't dominate the teams that have spent far less than us. We have spent over £100m on forwards, yet tens of teams are outscoring us. The money spent excuse is a ludicrous excuse. One or two more players wouldn't make any difference in the midst of these shit show.

Without a question. this Mourinho led United is not good at any aspect of the game after 400 million pound investment yet we're supposed to believe another centre back is what separating us from challenging for the top positions?
There's no area which we can pinpoint clearly and say this is working but we're missing this final step and 1/2 players will solve it.

 

[Reddy Rederson]

I’m sure Woody decided all by himself to fork out a fortune on the likes of Lindelof, Bailly, Matic and Fred.

He’s the money man, so yeah. Duh.

 

[slir32]

Bring in a starting RB, a holding midfielder, a quality Cb and a manager who actually plays football to the strengths of his team rather than trying to stop the other team and we will have a title challenge.

 

[Reddy Rederson]

I've heard this attitude a few times now, what on earth is this?

Mourinho obviously asked for those players. You think that Woodward was drooling over the proposition of buying the likes of Bailly, Fred, Matic and Lindelöf? Most likely he had absolutely no clue who they were at the time we signed them.

Whatever Woodward payed for them is irrelevant, most of those players wouldn't have lived up to a fee of 15-20 million the way they've played under José. We clearly have a set budget anyway of what we can and cannot pay, don't you people think that Mourinho would be involved in planning for which positions/signings would take priority over others?

Asking for players, doesn’t mean you bend over to get them. Woodward made the deals. Woodward agreed the deals. If Jose said “I want Santa!” Does that mean woody breaks the bank to get him, or does he stay within the market value? What about agreeeing new deals with players already here and paying them so much money we can’t get rid of them because no one else is dumb enough to give Jesse lingard and the like 100 grand a week. That’s all on woody. Jose is the coach. Nothing more, nothing less. He doesn’t have anything at all to do with the money.

 

[Foxbatt]

The players are playing as if they have never been coached and making basic mistakes not expected of International players. Either Jose is not training them well or the players are not simply being arsed about it. I see that we do not have a leader at all on the pitch or even in the coaching staff. How I wish someone like Roy Keane would be employed as a coach just to pick a fight with the players and give them a bollocking.

 

[Reddy Rederson]

Who said I was angry at any deal, I'm angry our football is trash and worse than Bournemouth though, should I direct that to the Glazers?

You did, when you used money to have a go at Jose. If it’s about the football, make it about the football.

 

[Seven Seas Sardines]

It's so depressing. Each day gets worse as a United supporter, and if Mourinho is still here in January it'll get even worse. It can't be impossible to find someone who plays like Guardiola/Klopp/Sarri and gives our best players a chance for once? I'm dying to see this lineup in an attacking system with high pressure.

De Gea
Dalot Bailly Lindelöf Shaw
Pereira
Fred Pogba
Sanchez Rashford Martial​

If Fernandinho can defend with the Silva bros, surely Pereira can do so with Pogba and Fred in front of him.

 

[Canagel]

It's so depressing. Each day gets worse as a United supporter, and if Mourinho is still here in January it'll get even worse. It can't be impossible to find someone who plays like Guardiola/Klopp/Sarri and gives our best players a chance for once? I'm dying to see this lineup in an attacking system with high pressure.

De Gea
Dalot Bailly Lindelöf Shaw
Pereira
Fred Pogba
Sanchez Rashford Martial​

If Fernandinho can defend with the Silva bros, surely Pereira can do so with Pogba and Fred in front of him.

I'd like us to appoint Jardim next. Think he'll get this team playing with high intensity and won't hesitate to use the young players from the academy.

 

[Borden]

He’s the money man, so yeah. Duh.

Yes he is. But he bought the targets set by Mourinho. Nobody would give a feck that we overpaid by a few million quid if the transfers had worked out. And if they had worked out nobody would say we had overpaid in the first place. But they haven’t worked out, and that’s on Mourinho.

Also the notion that Mourinho bears no responsibility for the money spent is ridiculous, because he’s not an idiot, and he knows (or should know) quite a bit about the going rates in the market. And he knows that United generally have to pay more than most other clubs. And he also knows that he doesn’t have an endless amount of money to spend so he has to prioritize.

 

[cheeky_backheel]

Apart from Jones they're not mediocre. Not world class but not shit either.
You don't need 11 world class players every single position to be good team.
They're all solid international defenders and better than what they're showing. Why do we have worse defensive record than 10 or 11 other mid table teams?
If there's not clear world class target attainable then it's not worth adding a "decent" defender on top of 3/4 other "decent" defenders. You just end up with bloated squad and will need to replace in short term as we see already with Matic. That risk is there.
It's been exagerrated further by playing McTominay and Herrera at CB to prove a point.

They may be decent if playing for a lesser club, but for a club with title ambitions, none of them currently qualifies as a starter. Only Lindelof and Bailly are worth keeping giving their age and potential.

world class CBs are extremely rare and no club is going to sell one cheaply if at all. In the current market, you would probably need north of 150m to get Varane from Madrid, over 100m for Koulibaly, and even young talents like Skrinair will come close to such numbers. The most expensive defender we ever bought was Rio and that was 16yrs ago and given the crazy market prices since, that says a lot.

Mourinho can be criticized for being uninventive in attack but he is still one of the best managers in organizing a defence. He has been playing the whole team conservatively and we also have DDG as a safety net, but yet they look so bad. Most times we cant even keep a straight back line and keep playing attackers onside. But its no problem cos they are decent!

Alderweireld is not world class but still a clear level above what we have but you keep being deluded about their quality. Put them with a manager that insists on playing a more open game and their inadequacies would be ripped open.

Club says they want a young quality CB like Varane but cant cough up the money for them. The ones we can afford, we say are too old, not good enough and simply not worth it. But no need to worry, lets keep waiting for that top quality CB that will drop into our laps for cheap cos the other club owners are stupid.

 

[Mr PG]

Biggest stick used to beat Jose is that he’s spent a lot but there are caveats.

1) He took over a squad lacking balance and has had to shop in inflated market. How much would city have had to pay for Aguero/ Silva if they were buying now
2) He’s had to buy emergency buys like Lukaku( who else was he gonna buy) to make top 4 in a season. Lukaku now doesn’t fit the new technical system he’s trying to implement

3) Inherited a completely useless back 4 and had to buy 2 cb for £60m so he went bargain shopping instead of chucking all of £60m on a proven one.

Jose is not perfect but the situation at United is completely different to the one Guardiola inherited at city or Sarri at Chelsea who have Hazard and won the league 2 yrs ago.

 

[Mr PG]

Even sir Alex would struggle with this back 4. None of them should be a United starter... not even Shaw. Bailly and Lindeloef May eventually get there.

 

[cheeky_backheel]

It's so depressing. Each day gets worse as a United supporter, and if Mourinho is still here in January it'll get even worse. It can't be impossible to find someone who plays like Guardiola/Klopp/Sarri and gives our best players a chance for once? I'm dying to see this lineup in an attacking system with high pressure.

De Gea
Dalot Bailly Lindelöf Shaw
Pereira
Fred Pogba
Sanchez Rashford Martial​

If Fernandinho can defend with the Silva bros, surely Pereira can do so with Pogba and Fred in front of him.

and we would get exposed repeatedly and still wouldn't score enough.

 

[Reddy Rederson]

Yes he is. But he bought the targets set by Mourinho. Nobody would give a feck that we overpaid by a few million quid if the transfers had worked out. And if they had worked out nobody would say we had overpaid in the first place. But they haven’t worked out, and that’s on Mourinho.

Also the notion that Mourinho bears no responsibility for the money spent is ridiculous, because he’s not an idiot, and he knows (or should know) quite a bit about the going rates in the market. And he knows that United generally have to pay more than most other clubs. And he also knows that he doesn’t have an endless amount of money to spend so he has to prioritize.

The desperation to blame everything on Mourinho is why there’s so much arguing about the guy. He has nothing to do with the money, end of sentence. There is no “but”, and they’re sure as shit ain’t no “but, but, but”. Woodward is the money. Woodward knows the money, and Woodward should be doing the best to get the best deals. He isn’t. He’s the fecking idiot that gave Rooney 300 grand a week when it was clear as day to even blind people that he was in serious decline for the few years prior.

The constant leaks about “war chests” are why we pay more. Because woody is all about the image. Bragging about how much money we have. How is anyone going to get a good deal when the other party knows your pockets are full? It’s all down to woody. He fecked moyes over before moyes fecked himself, it’s hard to know if he fecked lvg or lvg was just that clueless with his buys, and now he’s screwed Jose. So even if Jose was the problem, he sure as shit ain’t the biggest problem. That’s woody. That’s always been woody, and as long as he’s in charge of the money it always will be.

And another thing, Jose isn’t the scout. That’s the scouts job, if the scout is telling him “x” is the man he wants, what’s else is he supposed to do? Go research every single player? Not just the ones we got, but the ones we didn’t get. That’s full time job in its self, and it’s not his.

The football has been shit, that’s Jose. The team has been set up wrong for some teams, that’s Jose. The wrong players show horned into the wrong positions, that’s Jose. The money, the scouting are woody and the scouting team. People in here need to stop looking for kitchen sinks to throw, and stick to what is actually Jose’s fault/responsibility.

 

[Borden]

The desperation to blame everything on Mourinho is why there’s so much arguing about the guy. He has nothing to do with the money, end of sentence. There is no “but”, and they’re sure as shit ain’t no “but, but, but”. Woodward is the money. Woodward knows the money, and Woodward should be doing the best to get the best deals. He isn’t. He’s the fecking idiot that gave Rooney 300 grand a week when it was clear as day to even blind people that he was in serious decline for the few years prior.

The constant leaks about “war chests” are why we pay more. Because woody is all about the image. Bragging about how much money we have. How is anyone going to get a good deal when the other party knows your pockets are full? It’s all down to woody. He fecked Moyes over before Moyes fecked himself, it’s hard to know if he fecked lvg or lvg was just that clueless with his buys, and now he’s screwed Jose. So even if Jose was the problem, he sure as shit ain’t the biggest problem. That’s woody. That’s always been woody, and as long as he’s in charge of the money it always will be.

And another thing, Jose isn’t the scout. That’s the scouts job, if the scout is telling him “x” is the man he wants, what’s else is he supposed to do? Go research every single player? Not just the ones we got, but the ones we didn’t get. That’s full time job in its self, and it’s not his.

The football has been shit, that’s Jose. The team has been set up wrong for some teams, that’s Jose. The wrong players show horned into the wrong positions, that’s Jose. The money, the scouting are woody and the scouting team. People in here need to stop looking for kitchen sinks to throw, and stick to what is actually Jose’s fault/responsibility.

I don’t. I blame Woody for hiring him.

Of course he should fecking research his targets ffs

 

[Canagel]

Biggest stick used to beat Jose is that he’s spent a lot but there are caveats.

1) He took over a squad lacking balance and has had to shop in inflated market. How much would city have had to pay for Aguero/ Silva if they were buying now
2) He’s had to buy emergency buys like Lukaku( who else was he gonna buy) to make top 4 in a season. Lukaku now doesn’t fit the new technical system he’s trying to implement

3) Inherited a completely useless back 4 and had to buy 2 cb for £60m so he went bargain shopping instead of chucking all of £60m on a proven one.

Jose is not perfect but the situation at United is completely different to the one Guardiola inherited at city or Sarri at Chelsea who have Hazard and won the league 2 yrs ago.

City and United finished level on points in 2016 which must not be forgotten. Since that season that gap has grown every year first to 9 points and then 19 points and now 12 points in November already. They spent more than us but crucially they spend to reduce the age of the squad. Everyone of the signings except Nolito and Bravo improved the team. They rebuilt their squad successfully. We spent money and it looks like we already need to replace some of the signings that were meant to rebuild the squad. Zlatan and Mkhitaryan came and went. Matic, Sanchez, Lukaku didn't improve us . We haven't seen Fred and Dalot. Bailly and Lindelof have been in and out and neither is completely settled yet. Pogba is the only one really you can say is worth what we paid.
It's not a question of money anymore but did we get value or not?

2) 75 million is a lot of money to spend on an emergency player. And it's not like Jose didn't know about lukaku he worked with him before and knew about his technical deficiencies. Liverpool bought Salah for 37 million so there were options.

3) that completely useless back 4 conceded the joint least goals in the PL along with Tottenham (28) and if you add 2 centre backs for 60 million plus 3 years of management I would expect improvement. Yet here we are in season 3 shipping goals for fun

 

[Reddy Rederson]

I don’t. I blame Woody for hiring him.

Of course he should fecking research his targets ffs

Ffs. Every single target? Every single one? Even the ones we pass on, dont get? Every. Single. One? So what are scouts for? What are head scouts for? What are assistant scouts for?

As for woody, he hired moyes. He hired LVG. He hired Jose. Yet Jose needs to go... Riiiiiggghhhhhtttttt.

 

[Seven Seas Sardines]

Ffs. Every single target? Every single one? Even the ones we pass on, dont get? Every. Single. One? So what are scouts for? What are head scouts for? What are assistant scouts for?

As for woody, he hired Moyes. He hired LVG. He hired Jose. Yet Jose needs to go... Riiiiiggghhhhhtttttt.

It's pretty obvious both need to go, but only one is likely to do so.

 

[Seven Seas Sardines]

I'd like us to appoint Jardim next. Think he'll get this team playing with high intensity and won't hesitate to use the young players from the academy.

I wish it happens before it's too late. On an 18-month contract.

 

[Reddy Rederson]

It's pretty obvious both need to go, but only one is likely to do so.

Probably, but IMO woody needs to go first. Whoever replaces him(who is hopefully fully researched and vetted) should pick Jose’s replacement. If woody picks another manager, we’ll be right back here again in a few years.

But you’re right, he’s more than likely going nowhere.

 

[Mr PG]

City and United finished level on points in 2016 which must not be forgotten. Since that season that gap has grown every year first to 9 points and then 19 points and now 12 points in November already. They spent more than us but crucially they spend to reduce the age of the squad. Everyone of the signings except Nolito and Bravo improved the team. They rebuilt their squad successfully. We spent money and it looks like we already need to replace some of the signings that were meant to rebuild the squad. Zlatan and Mkhitaryan came and went. Matic, Sanchez, Lukaku didn't improve us . We haven't seen Fred and Dalot. Bailly and Lindelof have been in and out and neither is completely settled yet. Pogba is the only one really you can say is worth what we paid.
It's not a question of money anymore but did we get value or not?

2) 75 million is a lot of money to spend on an emergency player. And it's not like Jose didn't know about Lukaku he worked with him before and knew about his technical deficiencies. Liverpool bought Salah for 37 million so there were options.

3) that completely useless back 4 conceded the joint least goals in the PL along with Tottenham (28) and if you add 2 centre backs for 60 million plus 3 years of management I would expect improvement. Yet here we are in season 3 shipping goals for fun

75 million is not too much given United would have lost £20-£30m sponsorship money alone by not making top 4 and its not like we can’t still recoup most of the lukaku money if we decide to sell.

Yes the back 4 conceded few goals last year but that’s from excessive protection from midfield which affects the transition game. Look at how city and Liverpool attack with freedom not needing to always protect the back 4.

Jose’s biggest mistake was trying to dismantle the lvg system instead of improving on it now he’s looking for players to resort to a more open system again

 

[haram]

If Lukaku didn't improve us how did we go from 6th to 2nd? The only other change was Matic for Herrera and people call Matic shite. The other answer would be that Jose got more out of the squad as a whole but obviously no one will want to admit that.

 

[R'hllor]

Ffs. Every single target? Every single one? Even the ones we pass on, dont get? Every. Single. One? So what are scouts for? What are head scouts for? What are assistant scouts for?

As for woody, he hired Moyes. He hired LVG. He hired Jose. Yet Jose needs to go... Riiiiiggghhhhhtttttt.

You ok, hang in there.

 

[Xixak17]

At this point if you still vehemently back Mourinho, I don't consider you to be a fan of this club.

What does United stand for:

- Attacking football
- Competing for titles
- Promoting and developing youth
- The whole playing better than the sum of the parts

Which one of those things has Mourinho done or brought to the club during his time as manager? None. And you still have people ridiculously bending over backwards to defend him. The guy is anti-United and slowly destroying the reputation of this club even worse than Van Gaal or Moyes ever could have.

 

[midnightmare]

We over performed last season. We got a lot of points we didn't deserve on the balance of play largely thanks to De Geas's heroics. At the end of last season I predicted on here we'd be around 6th without investment and that Liverpool would be City's closest challenger, people didn't agree and laughed but sometimes you have to look beyond the points total.

Did Spurs, Arsenal, Bournemouth and Watford underperform last season? Because they seem to be doing a lot better with no really massive investment compared to us.

Also, isn’t a manager supposed to make teams better? My issue is that not only has Jose not made us better, he’s convinced people that last season was an exception. I’m stunned. Last season, we struggled for cohesion in attack, yet still scored enough. The expectation should really have been that with time, Jose would coach our players to have better cohesion. Look at teams like Burnley, Bournemouth, Watford and Wolves. All have lesser players capability-wise and yet all look so cohesive when they move the ball.

We’re not struggling because we have poor players. We’re struggling because we have no cohesion. You can’t buy cohesion. It must be coached. And that’s why Jose is failing. He’s not learned how to build cohesive attacking teams in this era of high pressing. He’s stuck with the mid-block tactics in an era where teams pick off teams set up that way.

Before you say that the teams I mentioned have better players etc. please count how many full and regular internationals we have compared to them. We clearly have far better players. We just haven’t coached them to be a team. And that is on Jose. Not Ed, not Avram or anyone else. Jose Mourinho.

 

[Reddy Rederson]

You ok, hang in there.

 

[Patrick08]

I'd like us to appoint Jardim next. Think he'll get this team playing with high intensity and won't hesitate to use the young players from the academy.

I am on Zidane's train, with a sporting director installed who acts as a footballing link to Woodward and the manager in terms of planning and recruitment in football side of things who can be in constant touch with Woodward as well in terms of long and short term planning of the squad.

Was really impressed with the cleverness he shown in Madrid with the squad he got, can he take it to next level ? Remains to be seen.

On the issue of bringing youth players into the team just because its our tradition really has carried on for way to long without the real quality coming out of it. Talented hardworking players automatically swim into deep waters and stand out from others and only those should make it to the team on the basis of their game rather than a customary tradition when some not so good players are promoted to play in first team on regular basis.

Though I am really disappointed with mourinho and his non flexibility to absorb himself with united's traditions. One poor window and he threw all his toys in annoyance while all that winning mentality is no where to be seen.

 

[LeftyBlaster]

Did Spurs, Arsenal, Bournemouth and Watford underperform last season? Because they seem to be doing a lot better with no really massive investment compared to us.

Also, isn’t a manager supposed to make teams better? My issue is that not only has Jose not made us better, he’s convinced people that last season was an exception. I’m stunned. Last season, we struggled for cohesion in attack, yet still scored enough. The expectation should really have been that with time, Jose would coach our players to have better cohesion. Look at teams like Burnley, Bournemouth, Watford and Wolves. All have lesser players capability-wise and yet all look so cohesive when they move the ball.

We’re not struggling because we have poor players. We’re struggling because we have no cohesion. You can’t buy cohesion. It must be coached. And that’s why Jose is failing. He’s not learned how to build cohesive attacking teams in this era of high pressing. He’s stuck with the mid-block tactics in an era where teams pick off teams set up that way.

Before you say that the teams I mentioned have better players etc. please count how many full and regular internationals we have compared to them. We clearly have far better players. We just haven’t coached them to be a team. And that is on Jose. Not Ed, not Avram or anyone else. Jose Mourinho.

Can we frame this post up? Just really sums it up.

Enough of the “we didnt get him his centre back” arguments or the board blaming. It’s nobodys fault but Jose’s that we play shit. He’s being found out now that he actually has to coach some progressive football to improve a side instead of splurging on signings.

 

[Class of 63]

The desperation to blame everything on Mourinho is why there’s so much arguing about the guy. He has nothing to do with the money, end of sentence. There is no “but”, and they’re sure as shit ain’t no “but, but, but”. Woodward is the money. Woodward knows the money, and Woodward should be doing the best to get the best deals. He isn’t. He’s the fecking idiot that gave Rooney 300 grand a week when it was clear as day to even blind people that he was in serious decline for the few years prior.

The constant leaks about “war chests” are why we pay more. Because woody is all about the image. Bragging about how much money we have. How is anyone going to get a good deal when the other party knows your pockets are full? It’s all down to woody. He fecked Moyes over before Moyes fecked himself, it’s hard to know if he fecked lvg or lvg was just that clueless with his buys, and now he’s screwed Jose. So even if Jose was the problem, he sure as shit ain’t the biggest problem. That’s woody. That’s always been woody, and as long as he’s in charge of the money it always will be.

And another thing, Jose isn’t the scout. That’s the scouts job, if the scout is telling him “x” is the man he wants, what’s else is he supposed to do? Go research every single player? Not just the ones we got, but the ones we didn’t get. That’s full time job in its self, and it’s not his.

The football has been shit, that’s Jose. The team has been set up wrong for some teams, that’s Jose. The wrong players show horned into the wrong positions, that’s Jose. The money, the scouting are woody and the scouting team. People in here need to stop looking for kitchen sinks to throw, and stick to what is actually Jose’s fault/responsibility.

We've always paid a United tax going back to the days of Sir Matt Busby so nothing new there, and have you ever stopped to think maybe, just maybe Ed with his war-chest boast was more to reassure the United fans that money(and lots of it)was available and would be spent(and by jove it was spent, and is still being spent) after 4 or 5 years of us spending sod all, rather than him just opening his mouth before he'd engaged his brain.

 

[Fracture90]

Just answer the basic question - is Toby better than all of our current CBs?

Since unlike you, who tends to just ignore the question he's been asked, I tend to answer them.

As things stand, Toby is probably better than any of our CB's.

But that doesn't really mean he would have been an instant success considering that is I've mentioned before he failed in the system much similar to our at that time in Atletico under Simeone, besides I actually believe it's the Spurs system that makes him better than he really is.

Now bear in mind, majority of people would tell you that Sanchez was also deemed better than any attacking player we had prior to him joining, and we know how that turned out...tho according to you he improved us

Then also Matić was deemed better than any DMF we had at that time, and he was for couple of months.

You're line of thought is fueled with assumptions based on Toby being the better player, but my thoughts are fueled by actual facts with actual examples of better player than we have actually flopping.

Also not to mention Toby would have been under additional pressure since we're a team that's happy to sit deep and soak the pressure which in turn makes us more prone to making mistakes.

 

[fellaini's barber]

He's made his case for further transfers numerous times. What's happened over the last few years or what the club has spent means nothing as long as they continue to employ him.
As for selling the club actively tried to offload Rojo, Darmian, sold Blind, Schlinderlin Depay etc etc etc.
Plus hate to say it but Jose has been way way more successful during his time at United than Poch has been in his entire managerial career.
United have way more issues than just who manages the first team. I cannot honestly think of a single manager who'd come here and turn this squad around. We'd still need major transfer investment and still have lots of players on fat contracts taking up spaces in the squad. It's a never ending circle.

The feck do you mean what the club has spent means nothing,of course it does, even if we grow money at OT. And what's the Poch comparison, no one cares about him, it's just hilarious that despite not having the kind of investment Jose has had his teams play better football and are 7 points above us. No club on earth just keeps giving a manager money when everyone he's bought with it is crap. It's really hilarious reading United fans moan about us not spending enough for Jose. When did he make a case for more transfers? His first summer he said he wanted four players and got four. Gave his 'list' again second summer then after we got 3 he was smugly talking about a title challenge in the beginning of the season and still got 1 more in January but were not challenging for shit by December while the football got worse. This summer he says he doesn't need to improve our attack and wanted some defenders, some who the club thought were not worth their price tags and having seen how crap most of his signings have been. We still got a $50m midfielder and his 3rd defender, 11 players in total...but no...' he hasn't been backed','hes made a case for for more transfers numerous times' etc, The poor unfortunate bastard. If you want to support the manager do so without making stuff up like 'he's made a case for transfers numerous times'. He's always got what he wanted except this summer which apart from maybe Pogba are all looking like crap, we look like we'll still splash more cash in January too, but no, keep moaning about how a guy who spent $400m on 11 players in just 3 seasons has not been backed and has been crying for more transfers when managers who haven't even had that luxury are doing better

 

[fellaini's barber]

You're missing an element in transfers which is the scouts job. Not each transfer comes with the manager scouting them themselves. It makes far more logical sense that the likes of Bailly, Lindelof and Fred were scouted and chosen by scouts and Mourinho said "Ok, go for it". Matic was his signings I agree, but it's not as simple as "manager or CEO" in choosing the targets.

So what's been on all these lists he keeps giving the club then, like the one he himself said he gave in his first summer with 4 players which he himself confirmed he had gotten. This will be good

 

[Patrick08]

We've always paid a United tax going back to the days of Sir Matt Busby so nothing new there, and have you ever stopped to think maybe, just maybe Ed with his war-chest boast was more to reassure the United fans that money(and lots of it)was available and would be spent(and by jove it was spent, and is still being spent) after 4 or 5 years of us spending sod all, rather than him just opening his mouth before he'd engaged his brain.

Vidic? Evra? Ronaldo? De gea? Absolute peanuts deals. There is no need to make noises about kitty and inflate the prices, if you can do it silently and effectively and continued in a proactive efficient fashion. Also I don't know if Woodward have changed the whole scouting system in behind and cut loose some important ones, our network is very less efficient in getting talents which are tailor made for united with the profile of players the club has always found success with.

The media management has also been terribly poor, when players keep using our name to negotiate better contracts elsewhere while failed transfers and hijacked ones projects negative spotlight increasing pressure on Woodward himself.

 

[fellaini's barber]

You did, when you used money to have a go at Jose. If it’s about the football, make it about the football.

What are you even on about. My post was about you lot talking about Jose should be allowed to 'replace' most of his transfers because you keep claiming Pep has replaced a bunch of people which is a fat lie. Whoever is responsible for the spending in the end we have very expensive team playing soul destroying football, again should I blame the Glazers?

 

[cheeky_backheel]

Since unlike you, who tends to just ignore the question he's been asked, I tend to answer them.

As things stand, Toby is probably better than any of our CB's.

But that doesn't really mean he would have been an instant success considering that is I've mentioned before he failed in the system much similar to our at that time in Atletico under Simeone, besides I actually believe it's the Spurs system that makes him better than he really is.

Again, our defence is nothing like Atletico's. In fact very few defenses are e.g. there is no ball playing CB, they play as 4-4 defensive unit (back line tied to defense not lone DM), level of aggression in tackling, less aerial threat in la liga etc So stop using it as a measure against Toby. Also the quality of Atletico's backline is much higher and difficult to break into. The spurs system is actually more similar to ours: one physical+ one ball playing CB, +lone DM.

While there is no absolute certainty that Toby would make us better, but its almost as certain as you can get with a transfer e.g. matured player, played in PL and CL,for one of the top 6 clubs, no language barrier etc. Anybody else that is younger, coming from outside the PL, doesnt speak english, and/or from a lesser club would have more uncertainty about succeeding.

Now bear in mind, majority of people would tell you that Sanchez was also deemed better than any attacking player we had prior to him joining, and we know how that turned out...tho according to you he improved us

We swapped Sanchez for Mkhi and had a better squad after the transfer. The failure to reap full benefit were due to it being a mid-season transfer and mainly how Mourinho handled his integration (i.e. would things have been different if he was introduced on the right and Martial kept his place). While we dont have full details into what influenced Mourinho's decision, but there is a legitimate question to be asked but that does not change that Sanchez made us better. Was he worth the astronomical wages and contract - absolutely no imo

Then also Matić was deemed better than any DMF we had at that time, and he was for couple of months.

The longevity and value of the player is a different argument, which is why i am usually against signing older players unless for free (Zlatan) or on the cheap.

But in getting an experienced CB, I dont see how we can avoid it and Alderweireld would seem the best value. If the rumored numbers are true, then I agree with waiting till the summer to get him, but that should not have barred us from then getting another young CB, LB/RB or DM to stregthen the defence. The drop in quality of matic is a significant contributor to our defensive woes.

You're line of thought is fueled with assumptions based on Toby being the better player, but my thoughts are fueled by actual facts with actual examples of better player than we have actually flopping.

Also not to mention Toby would have been under additional pressure since we're a team that's happy to sit deep and soak the pressure which in turn makes us more prone to making mistakes.

It is not an assumption that Toby is currently the better player. i dont think it should even be a question.

That he is the better player is the premise of the transfer (otherwise why buy him) and his success after transfer would not have been any more uncertain than any other target. We can spend 200m on a player and there would still be uncertainty about his succeeding at the club, and maybe more so with the pressure of a very high transfer fee. But we cannot use that uncertainty as an excuse cos then we wont sign anyone of worth.

 

[Class of 63]

Vidic? Evra? Ronaldo? De Gea? Absolute peanuts deals. There is no need to make noises about kitty and inflate the prices, if you can do it silently and effectively and continued in a proactive efficient fashion. Also I don't know if Woodward have changed the whole scouting system in behind and cut loose some important ones, our network is very less efficient in getting talents which are tailor made for united with the profile of players the club has always found success with.

The media management has also been terribly poor, when players keep using our name to negotiate better contracts elsewhere while failed transfers and hijacked ones projects negative spotlight increasing pressure on Woodward himself.

Wouldn't say De Gea was signed for peanuts considering his age and how much keepers were going for at the time, but there is no denying that SAF was a master at bringing in rough diamonds on the cheap(Irwin, Solskjaer et al) and turning them into superstar who gave us years of service, but he did occasionally pay way over the odds, we gave Leeds United £10m more than we needed to for Rio as they were having a fire-sale at the time, and nobody else was paying nearly £30m for Veron however talented he was, then there was the £41m+ combined we forked out for RvP and Ashley Young when they were both in the last year of their contracts something he wouldn't even have considered a few years previously.

And it depends how you look at it, if players are using United's name to negotiate better deals for themselves at their current clubs it means we're still relevant, and not some third tier European club a lot of our fans make us out to be. As long as you don't get giddy thinking the players(and it's usually obvious early doors when we're being used, or if the player has a genuine interest in joining United), no harm done.

 

[JohnnyLaw]

Asking for players, doesn’t mean you bend over to get them. Woodward made the deals. Woodward agreed the deals. If Jose said “I want Santa!” Does that mean woody breaks the bank to get him, or does he stay within the market value? What about agreeeing new deals with players already here and paying them so much money we can’t get rid of them because no one else is dumb enough to give Jesse Lingard and the like 100 grand a week. That’s all on woody. Jose is the coach. Nothing more, nothing less. He doesn’t have anything at all to do with the money.

What deals have we bent over backwards for? If anything Woodward has been criticized of not spending ENOUGH.

José probably has asked for 'Santa' though, several times in fact, which is why there's a rift at all. Santa being the likes of Alderweireld and Maguire for example who their clubs wouldn't part with for anything other than the exorbitant.

Don't you think Mourinho understands the way the market works at the moment, you think he's so fecking naive he asks for Matic not fully well understanding Chelsea are going to ask for a premium whilst dealing with a direct rival?

You don't think Woodward and José communicate at all during the transfer process, that at no point Woodward notifies the manager of the progress with the list handed down?
If the manager actually was that fecking nonchalant then he'd hardly have the right to be aggrieved come the end of the window now would he?

The contract situation clearly has become an issue for the club. But even there, you'd think Mourinho would take an interest in contract issues, (besides deciding who gets one of course) knowing what ripple effects they can have on the team.
But then, high salaries is a double-edged sword and one of the few advantages we can still pull in contract negotiations when the actual football project isn't enough.