Working hard and not 'losing your head' is something the players should be doing by default, not hiding behind the manager. This thread is about Mourinho and he's got most things right over the last few weeks.
The Mourinho Thread: Should he stay or go? | Sacked
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Do you think that might perhaps have something to do with them making the CL final, while scoring the most goals in the history of the competition? Had Mourinho ticked both those boxes in 2017/18 (and/or we started this season as well as Liverpool have) then I'm willing to bet nobody would be crying for his head either.
If Klopp doesn't start winning things he'll be sacked, and rightly so. Just to be clear, I personally don't think it is unreasonable for a manager to get time to build a squad to play the way he wants to play. What is a problem is when three years down the line there is little sign of any consistent progress.
Klopp (as an example) has improved his team year on year to the point that they are now genuine title challengers and for me, as close to City as anyone in the League. He will now be expected to take that further step and if he doesn't then modern football dictates he'll probably get the boot. The Wenger example proves the opposite. He is an outlier since few managers last long when they're not winning games.
Mourinho had a very good first season with a squad that clearly needed work. He should be commended for that. But has the team improved substantially since then? I personally don't think we have and if anything as a team, and (in a lot of cases) individually, we've regressed. Other managers during that time have improved their sides and Sarri and Emery look like doing the same.
Its easy to simplify matters and suggest that fans who have an issue with Mourinho do so because we play boring football when in fact, I suspect for most there's much more too it than that. Things are not getting better, he seems unable to get the best out of the players he has and up until recently was reverting to tiresome rants about why it's anyone's fault but his. Overall, results and performances are (in my view) getting worse.
Wow, the self righteous bollox over the last few pages is hilarious. Talk about condescending, contradictory rubbish; so ‘fanboy’ has some in a tizzy and yet it’s alright to call people that want him gone every name under the sun. Oh so childish.
It's laughable coming mostly from the same 'top red' lot that had zero qualms about jumping aboard the character assassination train when it came to a few of our players who were reportedly at odds with the manager earlier this season and during the summer. Same folks who took those reports as gold now want to claim that it's others who listen to the 'ABU' media too much
Seeing them acting so precious over words given all the venom that was spewed around that time is quite the sight
Even after winning two cups in his first season, people were still complaining about the style of play
Yup. With good reason. Like I said, if and when we start breaking goalscoring records under Mourinho you’ll see the fans being a lot less critical.
Finishing outside the top4 will have a lot of negative aspects:
- possibility of losing sponsors
- lack of attractiveness to big players
- less money made by the club -> less investment during the summer
Look at the bigger picture.
Rightly so.
We don't need big players. We just need Martial/Salah type signings who will be willing to join us even if we have EL and make an impact. I do agree that finishing outside of Top 4 will make De Gea and Pogba have second thoughts about staying though, so we might need CL after all.
Tbh though we made a LOT more chances with Ibra up top. He was missing bucket loads of chances, I think Pogba could have had 15 assists alone from him.
I think we improved in the second year but not as much as we could if had made better signings.
We had an ageing team and left over players that suited LvG. I posted repeatedly that it was important that we try and buy younger players to give us more time to overhaul the team. Buying Matic and Sanchez I believed was short sighted, and felt we would have been better off with younger players. Even if we couldnt sign Dier, who was rumored to be first choice, we should have still been able to get someone younger that we can get at least 5yrs of service from. Also, after getting his wage contract and getting older, Sanchez decline shouldn't be surprising. Unfortunately, we will have difficulty moving these players for any value. Also I felt his wages made our wage bill problem worse, and is not surprising that it has caused DDG and Martial to demand higher wages for their renewals. But several people on this board applauded Sanchez signing, so its obvious most didnt see the drop in productivity coming.
Second issue was the pursuit of Perisic. Given that we had opted for Lukaku, with his strength and weakness being evident to all, our failure to get a good 'supplier' to feed him, means we are not getting the most out of him. In our first season, most of our assists came from Ibra and Herrera which I felt was a big problem that should be addressed by bringing in a more creative player. I agree with not buying Perisic given the rumored price tags and more so his age, but not buying an alternative was not the right choice.
Also we didnt bring anybody in for either full back position, despite the age of Young and Valencia, and the poor performance by Shaw
Even with those, a good summer would have moved us a step forward in the right direction. The glaring problems in defence and lack of creativity upfront should have been addressed. Instead we brought in a teenage Dalot and complimentary Fred, with neither being able to take us to the next level.
The poor start to the season is simply Mourinho being a petulant child for net getting his transfer targets. This should not be surprisng fror anyone familiar with him and could have been avoided. I am not advocating that Mourinho gets any player cos he want him (cos I find his judgement of incoming players questionable) but needs he has identified should be filled. While most may not like the drama, the poor results has brought attention to the issues and would likely bring change, as opposed to his acting like all is well and the problem get worse.
Our progress is being undermined by our transfer activities, including an inability to move on our less desirable players as they are overpaid for what they are worth, and we are often getting shafted when buying. Thus I think we need a DOF to sort things out and hiring a new manager at this point may leave us more even more muddled up. I feel with proper squad management, we can get where we want to be and if Mourinho is not delivering by then, we can look to get a new manager.
I like Mourinho and any other manager that prioritizes winning over style. My opinion is you win first and then we can debate about your style of play in your win, but if you lose, I really dont care for how you lost.
Apparently, City has scored 5 goals or more 21 times since the last time we did it.
It's our defences fault
Seen that today. Talk about grim.
Does anyone know how regularly that happened under Fergie? Would have thought at least once a season? Maybe twice?
That's what happens when we don't spend 70m on Alderweireld or Maguire...
There’s definitely been a shift in attitude from Mourinho in the last couple of weeks. I liked his no nonsense press conference which was a breath of fresh air from the usual everyone’s fault but mine act. Maybe the let off he got after the Newcastle result has given him the kick up the arse he needed? It’s not over yet for him - still a long way to go.
I first noticed in the City thread (obviously) and questioned it's validity. Apparently it's fact.
I get all my information from Redcafe, so if it hasn't been posted here I wouldn't know. Can't imagine it was a regular occurence, though. I do recall battering Ipswich 9-0 one year - one of my earliest United memories in fact.
I can remember five goal hauls a bit more recently than that. The 5-3 comeback against Spurs being one of the most memorable. Or the 7 goals we scored against Roma. Or 8-2 vs Arsenal.
I do reckon we did it a hell of lot less frequently than City under Guardiola, mind you*. Seems like an amazingly short period of time that for them to rack up 21 5+ tallies.
*and a lot more frequently than we have since Fergie retired!
Not every manager wants to pile on the goals, with most likely to take the foot of the pedal once they have the clear advantage and rather use the time to try new tactics/formations or give other players time on the pitch
Maybe not, although I know what fans want to see. Especially when we lost a league title, relatively recently, on goal difference.
The bigger picture would getting rid of our archaic manager and getting someone who can move the club forward.
We've spent money but look where we are now. Having more money won't change that. We've seen that even signing one of the best players in the league can turn ugly.
You are factually right but unless we make real changes all those points are null and void.
Blame Smalling, I say.
When we’ve replaced him with a fat version of Alderweireld we’ll be well on the way to scoring five goals a game.
I am not a fan of piling it on except you are in a close race where GD might be the decider (which is often not the case with Guardiola's teams).
I just feels it shows more class to not have to rub it in when you are clearly the superior side. I think a 3 goal margin is dominant enough and 'gives face' to the defeated
Wow. I could not give less of a shit about “giving face” to anyone.
It terms of improvement, even if you could say there was improvement last year, on that basis we've regressed this.
If recruitment has been poor then the manager has to accept his part in that. Nobody on here knows what goes on behind the scenes but with the exception of this summer, he's been backed. An issue I have is that he doesn't seem to know how to get the best out of the players he has, nor do any of them appear to improve under his guidance.
Its only personal opinion but I think the club were concerned about his position this summer and that could be a big reason why he wasn't backed. How much of what you read in the press is true is up for debate but a lot of the names being thrown about smacked of "quick fix".
The lack of investment at full back tells a story in my view. Guardiola spent a fortune on full backs the summer before last - largely because of how important they are in his style of play but also, as far as the best sides go, in modern football generally. Liverpool play a similar way (Robertson by the way, I think is quality and was a bargain) as do Chelsea. Their full backs are key - up and down, creating width. Meanwhile, we're relying on Young and Valencia for the most part, although Shaw is improving.
As for the bold part, that's fine if your winning consistently, but as it stands United aren't. Substance over style is fine but when there's no substance you're just a manager who isn't performing. The PL is changing year on year and to me it looks like his style is becoming rapidly outdated and ineffective against the high press and quick tempo that other teams bring.
Some say we have not improved, but I do think we have. The first halves start is the current issue we need to fix. Jose says himself they train on that but it doesn't translate well on the pitch in the first half, and you have to go into your mental strength to create a come back and win.
So if they train hard to pressure teams from the beginning, I am sure this is not something that can be fixed just by changing managers. So I'd stay with Jose. No matter what people think, the 2nd halves show promises of a fast paced football. One of the key point in our transition is to have Pogba go up and someone behind to protect against counter attacks. Pogba changing zones is the one thing that can already bring a lot for the team and will unbalance others. We need other players transitioning between the zones to challenge any defensive structure of the opponent team, and we need other players like Herrera to cut the ball if we are taken in a counter attack. All of that while pressing early in the game. I think it's still do-able, it will pay soon.
So if they train hard to pressure teams from the beginning, I am sure this is not something that can be fixed just by changing managers. So I'd stay with Jose. No matter what people think, the 2nd halves show promises of a fast paced football. One of the key point in our transition is to have Pogba go up and someone behind to protect against counter attacks. Pogba changing zones is the one thing that can already bring a lot for the team and will unbalance others. We need other players transitioning between the zones to challenge any defensive structure of the opponent team, and we need other players like Herrera to cut the ball if we are taken in a counter attack. All of that while pressing early in the game. I think it's still do-able, it will pay soon.
Good for you if humiliating others makes your day
Main part of the regression I think is artificial with Mourinho trying to make a point e.g. playing Herrera and mctominnay in defence. The other part is just due to the squad being a year older with too many aged player. Being a world cup mean less rest and thus more telling on the older players like Matic and Young. Unfortunately, we will spend the rest of the season trying to recover from the poor start.
Its difficult to say where the blames lies between Glazers (limited funds), ed (poor negotiations), Mourinho (poorplayer choices) and scouting (missing good alternatives) but there is a definite a lack of coherence. Last summer it was failure to get Perisic with no alternative and dier was declined for a cheaper Matic, while this summer it was an issue with Willian and the CB. One cannot categorically to say the club is backing the manager if the manager's preferred targets are being vetoed without alternatives being brought in.
But then why extend his contract?
We were rumored to be interested in Rose, semedo and others at some point but have only brought in a teenage Dalot for £20m last summer. I expect Mourinho, and any decent manager for that manager, would like to upgrade our full backs but cant due to limited funds (else why buy a cheap teenager who barely had first team experience). We simply dont have the luxury of funds we used to have in the past.
I actually disagree cos quick development and long balls are actually the best counter to the high press (if the defenders dont have the ball, the high press is rendered useless and leaves you exposed at the back).
The problem we have is that we dont have the pieces to play the way Mourinho truly likes
- DDG distribution is questionable
- Our defence is too slow to play a high line and compress the field and only lindelof seems to be able to make a pass beyond a few meters
- full backs are too old (or poor in the case of shaw) and cant recover if caught upfield
- Matic is too slow to cover the full backs
- Pogba is too lackadaisical on the ball and often slows build up
- None of our attackers are creative enough to create for others and struggle to beat their man 1v1
- the poor mix of athleticism means we are half slow and half fast and thus are disjointed.
- Lukaku is poor at holding up the ball with a terrible first choice.
The last one is something I would put squarely on Mourinho if Lukaku was indeed his first choice last summer. If Mourinho wanted lukaku to hold up play, then a simple youtube video would convince him otherwise. Maybe he feels he can coached to be better but Lukaku does not have the skill set yet.
That brings me back to the issue of transfers and Mourinho. Mourinho is very good at identifying the needs of his team, particularly regarding how he wants them to play, but his much less reliable in indetifying proper targets to fill those needs. This is why I think for any club to get the best of Mourinho, they need someone like a DOF who understands the game enough to appreciate the need that Mourinho is trying to fill in the squad and can evaluate both Mourinho's proposed targets and alternatives to see which is the best fit and value for the club. We need a creative RMF/RWF but should be able to sign a good player that is younger than Willian and Perisic. Not signing anyone is a bigger problem.
What fecking planet.
I'm amazed at the excuses our fans give Mourinho.
You'd think he was SAF with what he's achieved at the club with how much leeway some fans give him.
You'd think he was SAF with what he's achieved at the club with how much leeway some fans give him.
Exactly! They're really are amazing at it!
He's had 5 windows to fix this. All the points highlighted in bold are fully to partly his own doing.
Who knows what happens behind closed doors. We had a great head scout who left us. Obviously Woodward isn't helping by not stepping away from football duties.
He’s not Fergie but he’s our most successful manager since Fergie. Even his biggest critics can’t deny that he brought back some pride and dignity after the previous two managerial disasters. Won us two cups and got us our highest on the table since our last title. The leeway he’s receiving from fans is purely down to where we were before his hiring, which was a lot worse off. Let’s wait until we can 100% make the right appointment before sacking him for Zidane, who many on here assume is going to come here and instantly knock Pep off his perch.
Believe it or not, it’s watching my team score goals that makes my day. The more the better.
At what point did you stop enjoying us put 7 goals past Roma, by the way? Or 8 past Arsenal? Were you too worried about the bruised emotions of the opposition to enjoy anything past the third goal in those routs?
You would also think we had Trump in charge with how fans jump on him as well.
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