You clearly don't buddy, but that's fine.
The MMA thread
- Thread starter Fortitude
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What's the highest level?
He's an MMA fighter and been a champion over 2 divisions in the biggest MMA organisation ever against the highest level fighters. It doesn't get much more high level in his own sport than that!
You seem to be expecting him to excel at stuff in different sports. I appreciate he tried his hand at boxing but his profession is a mixed martial arts fighter and he has got to, and excelled at, the highest level there which surely proves his ability?
Next you'll be dismissing him cos he hasn't won the World Cup or didn't enter Wimbledon.
I wrote a post explaining fully without once talking about his personality. If you're able to respond, do so, without inventing things I didn't say.
No. You said he is a 'great stand up fighter'. I've defined what I think should allow for such a claim. I think he is sub standard when compared to highest levels. Disagree if you like, but all you've done is reinforce my point.
As for the last bit, nice try as diversion.
As I've said I didn't make the post in the first place. You seemingly don't know what a stand up fighter is because you're judging him purely as a boxer. Watch the fight at the weekend and he obviously has more to his game than just boxing. What is the highest level you're talking of? Can you give us name examples? You said "The way Conar's 'stand up' is lauded by his fans, I'd expect him to demonstrate that specifically at the highest level. He is not able to, and it only ever looks good when mixed into MMA" yet his actual job is an MMA fighter. He fights in the biggest organisation in the world and uses his striking at that level. The UFC is the highest level for his skillset, he isn't a boxer so I don't get what else you're comparing him to? You mention stuff like BJJ and kick boxing but he is highly trained in both.
It wasn't an attempt at a diversion, just a throw away comment really.
Being a great striker in MMA is different than just boxing. There are feet, knees, elbows, and as we saw the other night even shoulders, that come into play in UFC. Khabib is a great grappler but he is pretty mediocre in all the other areas. Likewise for Conor with grappling. Neither are remotely as complete as someone like Jon Jones, who is very good at every aspect of MMA.
I think Usman would be a terrible match up for him as well, look at how he controlled Woodley. Really surprised he didn’t try and do the same with Colby. I just think with Conor Struggiling to make 170 and Usman probably fight night being more like 190 or something that’s just too big of a number to do anything about in wrestling against a guy like Usman.
If Usman wanted to just strike then yeah Conor has a chance against anyone in that division but if I was him I’d probably look to go after more attractive fights than Kahbib or Usman straight away. Heck if Petis goes back to 170 that might be a decent fight for him Then Masvidal or Nate later in the year.
You do have to wonder how much of what Conor has been saying recently is true about his build up to Kahbib. I think in the fight Conor showed he had decent wrestling technique but for some reason he just looked hesitant to commit. He did stop Kahbibs wrestling in certain parts or stopped Kahbib from progressing in situations. Kahbib is just relentless though.
I’m gonna say Wonderboy 170, Holloway, 155, Masvidal, 170, Gaethje 155/ Poirier 155. Know he’s already beat Max and Dustin but Max is much better fighter now and Dustin seems better at 155. Fit in Nate somewhere and then Kahbib. Could GSP make 170?
Sure it's only a take from the PPV he's getting? I thought it was the usual bs, but even half of that $80m is bonkers for a UFC fighter.
Crazier still is the hype can only grow off the back of such an emphatic return. If he and Masvidal manage to fight for anything meaningful - particularly with a strap on the line that isn't 'BMF,' it'll be the biggest sell the UFC have ever had.
You can just imagine the dollar signs in Dana's eyes as he eyes up the possibilities before both Conor and Khabib call it a day.
So it’s more similar to Muay Thai? Then surely you’d expect a great MMA striker to excel at MT or kickboxing as well? Like Adesanya?
From what singular skill did Jon Jones enter into MMA?
None in particular. He was a wrestler when he was in school but is generally known to be a complete fighter (unlike the other two). He fights intelligently and damages opponents at every aspect of MMA which is why its so hard to beat him. That's why Jones and GSP are the two GOATs of the sport. They are/were so comprehensive and multi-faceted, that made them stand out from the rest.
I must have missed when Kahbib showed he was good at standup because he‘s been outclassed a few times on the feet by guys who aren’t anywhere near the level of Conors striking.
Personally I don’t like wrestling, to me that’s a defensive strategy. Too often people just look to control people and waste minutes instead of trying to advance the position and go for a finish. There is far more risk involved for me when two people are standing up.
Good BJJ fighters can be interesting as they are looking to advance or catch people. I actually really enjoyed Askren vs Maia as that when it went to the ground was BJJ and wrestling at the highest level. Not jock sniffing.
Then it sounds like MMA is not for you.
And Khabib looked just fine 'standing up' against Conar. And he's 28/0
Wow! Thanks. Will gorge myself on his previous fights in next few days!
Interesting take given what was written about Maia and Askren being wrestling and BJJ showcased at its highest level. I like competitive BJJ. I don’t enjoy people that just look to control people on the ground. Thankfully in MMA there are far more interesting and mix skilled athletes who don’t just rely on such a limiting skill set Such as wrestling.
Not a great fan of Thai either to be honest. It has great techniques in it but if you watch a Thai fight it’s mostly ok let’s stand, trade blows and see who can absorb the most damage.
I went in to Thai from a boxing, Karate and Taekwando back ground and it was fun for a bit until you realise it is a bit, to borrow a qoute “stiff like everyone is stuck in the mudd”
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Irish are like the Highlander, there can only be one.
Didn’t Jones have a fecked arm in that fight as well? Sure Machida had him in some kind of arm lock that jacked up Jones arm in the fight but he refused to tap them went on to put him to sleep. Cold blooded the way he let him drop.
I’ll always like the first Gustafson fight. felt like that one cemented him and answered a lot of questions. Didn’t he take that Sho gun fight on short notice as well. Sure I remember him beating someone then Dana came to the ring and told him someone had dropped out of the Shogun fight and if Jones wanted it it was his. Few weeks later he was the champ. Dudes a bad ass.
Beat Ryan Bader on the 5th of Feb and fought Shogun on the 19th of March for a title.
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That was the Belfort fight wasn't it?
I can see where you are coming from. His record isn’t massively deep in terms of UFC records, but he is a champion in two weight classes and has finished extremely talented legendary fighters. If he does go out and knockout Masvidal for example, it would be tremendously impressive.
I don’t think he would beat Usman, but if he knocked out Masvidal and won the belt at 170, that would be some career.
I am not a fan by the way, I think Sam read it like that, but to do what he did to Cerrone in 40 seconds, is lethal. His standup is quality.
That in no way means that I think he is a better MMA fighter than Khabib, I don’t think that at all.
But I can be objective enough to admire the skills he does have. He isn’t a trained boxer, it’s a completely different sport.
What he did against Mayweather, would be like Bolt going to United and scoring 20 goals in a season. Boxing is a completely different discipline with a completely different style of training. It’s another sport entirely.
He has been an awful human being at times, but it’s self defeating to not give him plaudits on what he does do well.
I still think Usman or Khabib have too much for him.
You might be right. Maybe it was Jones who was doing that elbow wrench thing on Macheda I’m thinking of.
I do. Khabib will beat him comfortably, it's not even going to be close.
Tony is good on his feet and off his back but not good enough to stop the inevitable beating he'll receive from the russian.
I'd love to see McGregor vs GSP if he ever returns to the octagon.
I've no slight on Conor - my posts in here will back that up - but I think there's a measure of the man in the cage and the whole 'other' that gives him an aura some seem to buy into. He's got a magnificent chin at the lighter weights, but taking it up to 170, I think that's not going to hold up, which, in turn, means him walking forward with his hands down, as he does comes with the risk of he himself getting one-shotted or seriously delimited by a combination. It's a lot more exciting and gives him an extra element of kudos if he can do that in a division some believe he shouldn't be doing anything but tuning up in against the lower level fighters.
Taking on 170'rs in the same fashion as 155'rs would be a feat in itself and give him a level of respect that's the match of anyone who has been in the sport, I mean, 145, 155 and then 170, whilst carrying the power and same approach? Anthony Rumble Johnson would probably be the only one to trump that carrying himself WW to HW whilst still being a juggernaut.
I'm not saying Conor is too much for 155, btw, just that his approach in that division could be brazen because of his power and hit resistance where the same approach against guys who are outright bigger than him (by fight night by probably 10lb - 20lb) well, that would be something else entirely.
As I said before, doing anything of note at 170 would be a huge feather in his cap, but going up against the top rung of the division, even those that despise would have to acknowledge that.
PS. I'm not as big a fan of Khabib as many others in here, in terms of rating him. But regardless of that, it's stamina that really divides the two as the gulf in stand up is as big as it is on the floor, but Conor has no juice beyond 2 rounds whilst Khabib can easily go for 5 hard ones and once Conor is spent, he's a dead man walking with little threat in his hands and all his explosive speed non-existent.
I agree. Khabib doesnt do moves for Tony to counter. . Theyll spend a minute circling, kahbib will get him against the fence and Tony will fight the takedown for 30 seconds, Khabib gets him and positions himself for smash, starts to smash for last minute and the rounds over.
Khabib has perfect positioning for mma, theres not much you can do against the cage. Half the options arent even available in that positiion.
Khabib could very well win or else Tony could do the same thing to Khabib as he did to his last dozen or so opponents. He’s certainly superior to Khabib in every aspect of fighting except grappling, so these confident assumptions about Khabib winning easily are either overrating him or vastly underrating Tony.
Nah, Tony is an excellent fighter and his fights are way more exciting than Khabib's, but that's because he actually takes a lot of punishment in his fights too.
How many times have you seen Khabib come out of a fight with more than a scratch on his face? On the other hand Tony has been knocked down a few times in his last fights and lucky not to have been knocked out cold.
I honestly believe Khabib will be way too good for him to handle, but it's mma so who knows.
Let's just hope we can just finally see the fight take place this time whatever the outcome is.
Probably because he has never fought anyone as good as Tony, who is a complete fighter with incredible cardio. He’s slightly better than the Darrell Horchers of the world.
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Not sure in that order.
He’ll make money whatever, but lose to Masvidal and may never get Khabib. So he should surely want Khabib first
And then Diaz will seem him paid whatever, whenever
Is that just US markets??
Yes, since that's the primary place the UFC makes its money - from US PPV sales.
Not sure on the order myself, but I did think of Nate first as a 'tune up' before he goes in with one who has just as much chance of knocking him out as he does the other way, and the other who is effectively his nemesis.
I think Conor's best chance is for Tony to beat Khabib and take him out of the picture as he stands more chance vs. Tony than Khabib and whilst that won't initially make the most money as a sell, it could set in motion that 'two weight champion' notion again. I think Conor's done at 155 outside of a huge money fight against either of those two, and the longer he stays at 170, the harder it'll be for him to go back down, but it does beg the question of what weight he would face Nate at.
2020 is an interesting one for the two divisions; as far as the UFC is concerned, they need their cash cows to win their upcoming fights to set the hype machine off for the potential match ups later in the year. Welter really needs Usman deposed, as outside of Covington, he has no real draw as a champion and he's the bane of a lot of stand-up fighters as he'll maul them and kill the excitement of the fights, and he's a terrible stylistic matchup for Conor as he'd suffocate him and kill his stamina inside 3 minutes (Conor working even harder at 170 is a definite disaster waiting to happen) before the inevitable finish.
Masvidal is a wild card: though; if Conor calls him out, he'll take the fight immediately, which could scupper all this talk of structured 2020 etc. (for Conor, if he lost) as written above.
But there's got to be more to the numbers than that, as they've made that fight PPV worldwide, I believe, we in the UK had to buy it, and although it's not much money compared to US buys, worldwide, those sales are going to add up - think of how movies sell and the box office final tally with the US and worldwide markets combined.
Was this fight sold in China, would be the first question I'd ask here as that alone would ramp sales up before totting up: Europe, Middle East and Asia as a whole.
The money it makes outside the US is minuscule compared to what US and Canada PPV brings in. Its why most prominent PPV events are held in Vegas or NY - to maximize North American sales because that is when most people in the US time zones want to watch fights.
I just can’t see how anyone beats Khabib. He’s been in the ring with a lot of vastly inferior opponents, through no fault of his own, but I think Ferguson’s style might bring about an even better version of Khabib I just hope it doesn’t lead towards a boring fight because as good as Ferguson is on his back, he’s never had anyone with the skill of Khabib on top of him. I really hope that Conor and Khabib don’t fight again because it’s a very predictable win for the Russian, so would rather the stars aligned somehow to get Conor and Masvidal in a meaningful bout. Although I guess an easy way to market it is the biggest fight in combat sports history without a title on the line.
More than any fight though, I want to see Ferguson v Masvidal. That has greatest fight in the history of the UFC written all over it.
More than any fight though, I want to see Ferguson v Masvidal. That has greatest fight in the history of the UFC written all over it.
'It' as in the UFC? Conor is a unique case in that he's Irish and huge in Europe (might as well say huge worldwide). I'm guessing this was PPV in Ireland (anyone confirm?) and I think he has that Mayweather ability to get people to buy his fights in the hope he gets his comeuppance, so it's win-win for the UFC as people will buy Conor's fights one way or the other.
Would love to see the breakdown for Conor's fights vis-a-vis everyone else's. Wouldn't surprise me if the trends are different.
Won't happen. Different divisions and there would be nothing in it for either. Tony wants to beat Khabib and then sail off into the sunset since he is 35 now.
It’s a shame, I mean it could technically happen at a catch weight. Just the fan in me I suppose, guaranteed amazing fight.
how money motivated is TF? If he does beat Khabib, even at his age, the aftermath of that is a mcgregor fight hype train, and as the only person to ever beat Khabib, TF would probably be looking at making significantly more in one fight than his entire life combined.