The MMA thread

redmeister said:
Do you think people like Frank Bruno were clean?
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Why would I think otherwise? Like I said. I've never had any idea how much muscle anyone can pack on with or without PEDs. Just never been something I gave a shit about. Been very few high profile doping scandals in boxing, so that was enough for me to think it was still essentially fair. Perhaps I was being naive but I doubt I'm the only one.

To me, this is like the cycling scandal. I'm sure the hardcore cycling fans who had been following it obsessively for years knew everyone was on PEDs but the casual follower will have been massively put off by the Armstrong scandal. I don't know the stats but would suspect that the ratings of big cycling races have fallen off dramatically since that broke.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Why would I think otherwise? Like I said. I've never had any idea how much muscle anyone can pack on with or without PEDs. Just never been something I gave a shit about. Been very few high profile doping scandals in boxing, so that was enough for me to think it was still essentially fair. Perhaps I was being naive but I doubt I'm the only one.
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To be fair you are totally right about that. My hobbies are strength sports and after a while you start to assume everyone knows what you know, but of course when I first started working out, I was totally naive as well.
 
Jagga7 said:
They should do Silva vs Sonnen 3 both juiced to the max!
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Sonnen stomps Anderson as long as the ref ensures no shorts grabbing. I don't think Silva has anything for Sonnen outside of a title fight. In a title fight Chael will screw up at some point. But as long as the ref makes sure Anderson doesn't hold his shorts, Chael would take him down and keep him there.
 
Couldn't agree more with redmeister. MMA has been largely unregulated up until random testing started last year. Coincidentally it was when GSP quit. Fighters have all been juicing throughout Pride. UFC came and made things a bit more challenging by introducing pre-fight drug testing. You then see guys like Cro-Cop getting his ass handed to him. Shogun and Wanderlei couldn't reach their heights at Pride. I'm sure the richer and more sophisticated fighters like GSP and Silva (ala Armstrong) were able to formulate more full-proof ways to appear clean. GSP especially had a GH gut as well as Chuck Lidell. Vitor, Chael, Henderson, Griffin all took advantage of the loop hole that was TRT.

Now since random testing started, we see more fighters getting injured, more retirements etc. MMA is an incredibly intense combat and it will be highly unlikely to see fighters prolong their careers beyond 32-33 years. The last generation pulled through as they had a free pass on PEDs throughout their careers.
 
Hence, I am not too concerned about the Silva's drug bust. He is still a legend in my eyes. The fault lies on the UFC and NSAC. Only when they do random testing consistently, we will achieve a level playing field.
 
I also heard that WADA level testing costs up to $40,000! And that bald cnut Dana doesn't even pay fighters enough nevermind paying for the test.
 
redmeister said:
Sonnen stomps Anderson as long as the ref ensures no shorts grabbing. I don't think Silva has anything for Sonnen outside of a title fight. In a title fight Chael will screw up at some point. But as long as the ref makes sure Anderson doesn't hold his shorts, Chael would take him down and keep him there.
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TRT-rex Vitor on full gear stomps both of them.
 
I tink Diaz should be given the win. He was baked and still a roid-raged Silva couldn't stop him. I bet that's what his camp will come out and say :lol:
 
Not surprised about Diaz with the weed I'm not sure he's bothered about fighting anymore. If he can get a big name fight he will take it but I dont know how many more fights he truly wants.

Randall Flagg said:
I see it being a huge blow and I also think most fans will give a shit

Lets just judge us on the Caf. I reckon most did not like this news at all

For me it has totally tarnished Silva which is rather upsetting for me
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Agree it's some more disappointing news. I always viewed Anderson Silva as the greatest but I'm not sure after this. The sport needs cleaning up.
 
Kaush949 said:
TRT-rex Vitor on full gear stomps both of them.
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Not Sonnen in my opinion. It's horses for courses. He might beat Chael via a submission, but there is no way he stomps him. Chael would dominate the fight, no matter who ultimately wins. If you look at how Randy beat Vitor, it's hard to see how Chael doesn't dominate Vitor.

People make fun of Chael, but the reality is, since he fought Terry Martin in 2004, I think he's lost 1 full round of fighting. From 2008 and 2012 he only fought top 5 ranked guys and he completed 21 rounds and lost just 1. But he fought no top level wrestlers in that time. Even the fights he lost, we was always winning easily and just got caught (aside from Maia when he got caught instantly). Yet the moment he fought bigger, stronger wrestlers he totally crumbled and was next to useless. But Vitor is no elite level wrestler, so will get taken down and beaten up the same as everyone else. There is a good chance Vitor can still win, as he's got good submissions and Chael is the most careless fighter in history. With Anderson, I think Chael would be super careful, given their first fight, but with Vitor he might treat him like he did Shogun. If you allow Vitor to get doube under hooks, there is a high chance you'll submitted.
 
Possible but TRT Vitor at Middleweight was a different animal. He will catch Chael in round 1 and put him to sleep. First round knockouts of Rockhold and Hendo and second round head kick against Bisping.

True, he struggled against large wrestlers at LHW and HW but in reality just like Sonnen he was quite small for LHW.

Chael juiced up couldn't finish Bisping. Actually, some people even scored that fight pretty even.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Why would I think otherwise? Like I said. I've never had any idea how much muscle anyone can pack on with or without PEDs. Just never been something I gave a shit about. Been very few high profile doping scandals in boxing, so that was enough for me to think it was still essentially fair. Perhaps I was being naive but I doubt I'm the only one.

To me, this is like the cycling scandal. I'm sure the hardcore cycling fans who had been following it obsessively for years knew everyone was on PEDs but the casual follower will have been massively put off by the Armstrong scandal. I don't know the stats but would suspect that the ratings of big cycling races have fallen off dramatically since that broke.
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Which is funny because over the years the UFC's viewership and pay per view numbers (North America) has dropped significantly. Whether that's to do with the "demise" of legends like Liddel, GSP, BJ Penn, Couture et al thus people losing interest, or fighters being busted for PED's over the years has been turning people off the sport.
 
DatIrishFella said:
Which is funny because over the years the UFC's viewership and pay per view numbers (North America) has dropped significantly. Whether that's to do with the "demise" of legends like Liddel, GSP, BJ Penn, Couture et al thus people losing interest, or fighters being busted for PED's over the years has been turning people off the sport.
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In reality, I don't think viewers care about PEDs. PEDs however enabled the roid-filled WWE style build-ups as well as great events/violent fights of the early times. Now, with random testing injuries and the ability to train harder will be reduced and hence you won't see the so much of the amazing shows that GSP, Silva, BJ etc. put out.

But we have Conor to save the day now :)
 
DatIrishFella said:
Which is funny because over the years the UFC's viewership and pay per view numbers (North America) has dropped significantly. Whether that's to do with the "demise" of legends like Liddel, GSP, BJ Penn, Couture et al thus people losing interest, or fighters being busted for PED's over the years has been turning people off the sport.
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Maybe the growth of torrents/illegal streams?
 
DatIrishFella said:
Which is funny because over the years the UFC's viewership and pay per view numbers (North America) has dropped significantly. Whether that's to do with the "demise" of legends like Liddel, GSP, BJ Penn, Couture et al thus people losing interest, or fighters being busted for PED's over the years has been turning people off the sport.
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Watching the events online is way easier than before. definitely something to take into account.

this + the demise of legends probably the main reason.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Can't speak for everyone else but I came to the sport from a background of watching boxing (where PEDs don't seem to be much of an issue) didn't bother spending ages reading up on the history of MMA and don't know (or care) exactly how much muscle someone can pack on with/without taking steroids. I always assumed they were fighting on a level playing field. If not, it becomes a lot less interesting to me.
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You honestly think that Pacquio was able to shift weight-classes so seamlessly without some extra help? Do you know how difficult it is for athletes to gain a few pounds of muscle naturally?
 
Kaush949 said:
Possible but TRT Vitor at Middleweight was a different animal. He will catch Chael in round 1 and put him to sleep. First round knockouts of Rockhold and Hendo and second round head kick against Bisping.

True, he struggled against large wrestlers at LHW and HW but in reality just like Sonnen he was quite small for LHW.

Chael juiced up couldn't finish Bisping. Actually, some people even scored that fight pretty even.
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Chael rarely finished anyone. I'd never expect Chael to finish Vitor. But likewise he rarely takes big shots. Everyone said Shogun would knock Chael out in round 1, but he did what he always does, ran straight across the octagon, put Shogun up against the fence and took him down. I'm not saying Chael would win the fight and I would favour Vitor to find a submission. But I think because Chael has become a bit of a comedy character, people forget just how incredibly dominant he was. On top of that easy defeats to Jones and Rashad have lowered his stock. But, ultimately, history shows, that at MW, especially against non wrestlers, the chances are Chael will dominate you, no matter who you are. In the same way you could say look at Henderson and Rockhold fights to see what Belfort will do to Chael, you could have said the same about the Leben, Franklin and Belfort fights for what Silva would do to Sonnen. In fact people did exactly that, only when it came to fight night, Chael took Silva down instantly in the same way he did to Jeremy Horn, Forest Griffin, Mayhem Miller, Filho, Okami and Marquadt etc. So whilst I'd put my money on Vitor winning the fight, I'd be amazed if Chael didn't beat him for a while until Vitor finds the finish.
 
The way I see this whole thing is that my original favourite fighter was Ken Shamrock. I then moved onto Vitor, Wand, Don Frye and Mark Coleman. Then Fedor and Cro Cop. Then Anderson became my favourite. I've never suspected any of them to be clean. I can honestly say I never doubted for a second that they were all using. I loved watching them fight and I loved MMA in general.

I'd be shocked if Michael Bisping was on steroids. He's about the only one. There is such naivety in the way he rants about PED use that is missing from the likes of GSP and Tim Kennedy etc.
 
Things that this news has taught me:

1) CM Punk may actually be the number 1 ranked P4P soon with the rate the top guys are falling.

2) BRING BACK PRIDE. Who doesn't want to see blatant PED pumped superman beating the crap out of each other? Weight limits are for wimps. Another option is dividing people by their testosterone levels.
 
DatIrishFella said:
Which is funny because over the years the UFC's viewership and pay per view numbers (North America) has dropped significantly. Whether that's to do with the "demise" of legends like Liddel, GSP, BJ Penn, Couture et al thus people losing interest, or fighters being busted for PED's over the years has been turning people off the sport.
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The numbers have gone done because there are about 1000 events a year now and the cards have been significantly downgraded. Old UFC cards would have 3-4 fights which would be certain main events now.
 
phelans shorts said:
Things that this news has taught me:

1) CM Punk may actually be the number 1 ranked P4P soon with the rate the top guys are falling.

2) BRING BACK PRIDE. Who doesn't want to see blatant PED pumped superman beating the crap out of each other? Weight limits are for wimps. Another option is dividing people by their testosterone levels.
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Fans get that a bit wrong. It's not Pride, it's Japan. The first Pride event that took place in the US, half the card got bust for steroids! So it wasn't just the organisation but the testing regulations of where they held fights. Now people might say the UFC is more strict, but I think I'm right in saying that despite loads of failed tests, no fighter has ever failed a test outside of CA or NV. So unless that is purely coincidence, it kind of suggests the UFC, until recently at least, was no more anti PEDs than Pride. It's the Nevada and California commissions that are against PED use.
 
phelans shorts said:
Things that this news has taught me:

1) CM Punk may actually be the number 1 ranked P4P soon with the rate the top guys are falling.

2) BRING BACK PRIDE. Who doesn't want to see blatant PED pumped superman beating the crap out of each other? Weight limits are for wimps. Another option is dividing people by their testosterone levels.
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Only one top guy has fallen. And at least he is old and probably wasn't going to come back full time anyways. It's a huge blow to the image of the sport but someone who was/is a legend of the sport

But apart from that they are trying to clean it up. Not long ago TRT was legal. Now that that is gone and soon a lot of the older generation will also be gone. I still have a lot of faith in the newer breed.
 
Randall Flagg said:
Only one top guy has fallen. And at least he is old and probably wasn't going to come back full time anyways. It's a huge blow to the image of the sport but someone who was/is a legend of the sport
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2) Jon Jones. You can't tell me that his drugs test results weren't a massive flashing light for PED's.

3) Diaz now has 3 strikes, that's a ban.

That's 3 in a month.
 
phelans shorts said:
2) Jon Jones. You can't tell me that his drugs test results weren't a massive flashing light for PED's.

3) Diaz now has 3 strikes, that's a ban.

That's 3 in a month.
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Jones was on coke. It was bad for their image but I don't believe it was anything more sinister( don't believe everything you read)

Diaz will get at least a year ban. He hasn't fought for more than two years, he hasn't won for three years and was unlikely to fight again unless it was another super fight.

For me the only really bad thing that has happend hese past few weeks is Anderson.
 
Randall Flagg said:
Jones was on coke. It was bad for their image but I don't believe it was anything more sinister( don't believe everything you read)
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I choose to believe the official results, with the MASSIVE indicators right there that there was some serious PED use, rather than bury my head in the sand.

Diaz will get at least a year ban. He hasn't fought for more than two years, he hasn't won for three years and was unlikely to fight again unless it was another super fight.

For me the only really bad thing that has happend hese past few weeks is Anderson.
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If you want to ignore Jones then maybe so. Diaz has name value, which they were lacking in before Anderson even.

Also worth pointing out as Redmeister did that only 2 commissions actually seem to be doing anything at all about drugs.
 
phelans shorts said:
I choose to believe the official results, with the MASSIVE indicators right there that there was some serious PED use, rather than bury my head in the sand.



If you want to ignore Jones then maybe so. Diaz has name value, which they were lacking in before Anderson even.

Also worth pointing out as Redmeister did that only 2 commissions actually seem to be doing anything at all about drugs.
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Either way I do think the sport is cleaner now than a few years ago. And although it will never be fully cut out I do think it will only get better.

High profile cases like this will help in the long run.

I couldn't even be arsed trying to defend the sport right now as I am gutted over today's news,
 
Randall Flagg said:
Either way I do think the sport is cleaner now than a few years ago. And although it will never be fully cut out I do think it will only get better.

High profile cases like this will help in the long run.

I couldn't even be arsed trying to defend the sport right now as I am gutted over today's news,
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Take Anderson division for example. Of the top 5 ranked MW's the names Romero, Machida, De Souza and Belfort appear. I'd be stunned if any of them were clean.
 
So now Silva has released a statement denying that he has ever taken PEDs - http://sports.yahoo.com/news/anderson-breaks-silence-testing-positive-steroids-001747212--mma.html

By the way, this is Silva's (57 year old) head strength and conditioning coach based out of the Black House gym in Brazil..

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All natural, bro.
 
Denial is the wrong move. He should have tried to make an excuse. Now when the test B tests confirms things, he's screwed.

Also using the line about having been tested many times in the past doesn't do him any favours as everyone knows this was his first ever random test. He past the test on fight night, which is the only ever test he's done before. That's what makes this so much worse for him and every fighter that claims they are clean because they've been passing tests for years. Silva proves what everyone who knows anything about drug tests has known for years, which it's easy to pass if you know when the test is. This is why it's so shocking people still managed to get caught previously. Though that is explained by them being sold different steroids than they thought they were buying, which stay in your system longer.
 
What a comeback win by Benson Henderson! Looked pretty overmatched most of the fight, but his experience helped him out at the end. Needs to stay at lightweight though.
 
Henderson is brilliant, went in and showed just how good he is yet again. The loss shouldn't hurt Thatch too much either, he'll hopefully take it and improve on it.

Another two straight weeks of shows. So pumped for UFC 184 even without the Weidman/Belfort fight. UFC 185 after that which is just a ridiculously good card.
 
Bendo is a great fighter, really enjoyed the whole David vs Goliath aspect of that fight although I had a strong feeling if he made it out of the first two rounds he'd win. He'd be a lot more likeable however if he didn't try ram the God stuff down your throat at every chance. He never bothers to answer post fight questions at all.
 
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