The MMA thread

[Raoul]

How can you possibly use a blueprint that Stipe himself found redundant in their second fight, to the point he was completely shut out? You're denying N'Gannou's clear progress by doing so. In fact, it'd be playing into his hands trying to approach him in a way he's long since overcome.

The Stipe of last year was three years older and more punch drunk than the 35 year old Stipe who was still at the tail end of his prime years during fight one. Obviously an older Stipe was not going to be as effective against an in form Ngannou who was specifically training to avoid takedowns in fight two. This also suggests that Francis is not comfortable on the ground and has to keep the fight standing up at all costs.

To call what he does brawling is also ridiculous. Lewis and all the other plodders brawl; N'Gannou, as I stated before, sets up and makes clean, concussive connections that don't come about by windmill hands. He makes, and then exploits, those openings, they don't materialise out of thin air.

Lewis and Ngannou are both brawlers. Stylistically different, but still one dimensionally reliant on their right hands to win fights.

I honestly have no idea why you're referencing the first encounter between Stipe and N'Gannou as the foundation of your post - that version of N'Gannou was consigned to history on that very night.

The reality is you don't know which version of Francis is going to show up. Are you going to get the timid version that was scared to engage with Lewis ? Are you going to get the frustrated version who lost to Miocic ? Or are you going to get the flailing bomb thrower who easily dispatched Cain, Overreem, and Rozenstruik ? You just don't know, which is not entirely helpful in assessing his fights.

Gane hasn't done nearly enough to state his arsenal is bonafide in top 5 contests. You're using what he's done up to now against a low tier of HW and extrapolating without any grounds. He may well carry he's threats to the top, but that's far from assured, in my opinion. Stipe obviously isn't the athlete Gane is, but he is far, far more battle-tested and proven and in a different tier entirely to this point in time.

Well he easily dispatched Derrick Lewis, humiliating him before his home crowd - which Francis, for some reason, wasn't able to to do.

It's fair to say in terms of athleticism, this is N'Gannou's sternest test, but that goes by multiples more for Gane - the opponents he's faced are no preparation at all to face N'Gannou.

I don't think you're giving N'Gannou anywhere near enough credit, personally, and worse, you're not acknowledging a clear, linear line of progression and improvement.

I'm bemused by the recency bias Gane's getting as so many are backing him over an opponent who has gone through more, and better opponents to get to the top. We'll see how things go soon enough, I guess!

I don't think its recency bias as much as balancing out the narrative that Francis would have some sort of advantage over Gane. Francis is easily the best puncher in all of MMA, but as has been demonstrated by Stipe, you can still beat him, and Gane has at least as much chance of winning as Stipe had going into fight one.

 

[Welsh Wonder]

In fairness Stipe was significantly older and had been through a few wars with DC by the time of his second fight with N'Gannou. I don't dispute that N'Gannou may have improved significantly but I don't think you can compare that against the inferior version of Stipe he fought.

 

[JPRouve]

An other thing that was mentioned by a commentator, Ngannou didn't easily beat Stipe, Stipe rocked and recklessly rushed him which was poor judgement since Ngannou's knockout power should always be respected. Ngannou is extremely dangerous but he didn't dominate Stipe.

 

[T00lsh3d]

Worth adding to this debate (apologies if it has already) is that Lewis sat back and waited for Gane to come in, handing over the pace of the fight which suited Gane’s style completely. Ngannou will presumably be on the front foot and Gane will have much more work to do if he doesn’t want to trade.

 

[Raoul]

Worth adding to this debate (apologies if it has already) is that Lewis sat back and waited for Gane to come in, handing over the pace of the fight which suited Gane’s style completely. Ngannou will presumably be on the front foot and Gane will have much more work to do if he doesn’t want to trade.

I think that would be a concern for Gane, but as shown in the above Stipe 1 fight, Francis doesn't like being hit in the face either and Gane has a very good jab that allows him to pop his opponents from distance then quickly step out of the way from counters. I think Francis' only chance against Gane is to be as aggressive as possible in the first minute or two and hope to clip him, especially if Gane attempts to trade with him (which I doubt he will). If the fight gets into round two, Francis' advantage dissipates very quickly as cardio becomes more of a factor. At that point Gane can start tenderizing Francis with leg kicks and jabbing his way to a TKO or a points victory.

 

[JPRouve]

Worth adding to this debate (apologies if it has already) is that Lewis sat back and waited for Gane to come in, handing over the pace of the fight which suited Gane’s style completely. Ngannou will presumably be on the front foot and Gane will have much more work to do if he doesn’t want to trade.

Ngannou is fairly stationary, Gane is a lot more mobile. Also Gane strategy will probably start with getting rid of Ngannou's front leg. One of the reason Lewis couldn't go forward was because Gane chopped his legs.

 

[Dirty Schwein]

I love it how people are thinking of why Ngannou might have troubles against Gane. It'll be funny once the fight starts and Gane gets sparked within the first minute. I don't want that to happen but it will be hilarious.

 

[JPRouve]

I love it how people are thinking of why Ngannou might have troubles against Gane. It'll be funny once the fight starts and Gane gets sparked within the first minute. I don't want that to happen but it will be hilarious.

That option isn't really ignored but you could say the same thing for literally all fights, anyone could be sparked within the first seconds.

 

[T00lsh3d]

I think that would be a concern for Gane, but as shown in the above Stipe 1 fight, Francis doesn't like being hit in the face either and Gane has a very good jab that allows him to pop his opponents from distance then quickly step out of the way from counters. I think Francis' only chance against Gane is to be as aggressive as possible in the first minute or two and hope to clip him, especially if Gane attempts to trade with him (which I doubt he will). If the fight gets into round two, Francis' advantage dissipates very quickly as cardio becomes more of a factor. At that point Gane can start tenderizing Francis with leg kicks and jabbing his way to a TKO or a points victory.

I reckon Francis will be more than happy to eat a jab or 2 if it gets him into the pocket. Also, as @Fortitude has said, I doubt Ngannou will be completely gassed after 2 minutes as he seems to have learned a little discipline to not go nuclear every time he throws (and tbh, when you’re that strong you don’t need to go nuclear to deck people). Btw, I think Gane’s absolutely great….heavyweight tends to bore the shit out of me but he’s incredible to watch and I hope he goes far. I’m just not quite ready to proclaim him the finished article and heir apparent yet. If he beats Francis….fair enough

Ngannou is fairly stationary, Gane is a lot more mobile. Also Gane strategy will probably start with getting rid of Ngannou's front leg. One of the reason Lewis couldn't go forward was because Gane chopped his legs.

Compared to Lewis, Ngannou is prime Dom Cruz Lewis always wants to sit back and counter when someone’s coming in anyway, he’s never gonna be on the front foot

 

[JPRouve]

Compared to Lewis, Ngannou is prime Dom Cruz Lewis always wants to sit back and counter when someone’s coming in anyway, he’s never gonna be on the front foot

But he still isn't great in that department, the fact that HWs tend to be immobile means that it's going to be the first time that we see him against someone that is big, mobile and a good striker. Anyway, I think that we can all agree on the idea that Ngannou's power is in itself a huge advantage, one mistake and you are potentially sleeping, now if you turn this fight into a Muay Thai contest Gane looks like the better fighter on paper.

 

[Dirty Schwein]

That option isn't really ignored but you could say the same thing for literally all fights, anyone could be sparked within the first seconds.

This is true, but more-so with Ngannou, who doesn't even need to land clean to switch them lights off.

I think he'd KO me if we touched gloves.

 

[Raoul]

I love it how people are thinking of why Ngannou might have troubles against Gane. It'll be funny once the fight starts and Gane gets sparked within the first minute. I don't want that to happen but it will be hilarious.

If he does, he will probably lose. The fact that Gane has Ngannou's old trainer and has already sparred with Francis, suggests he will have a plan to mitigate the initial onslaught, then gradually start going after his legs or taking him down.

 

[Dirty Schwein]

If he does, he will probably lose. The fact that Gane has Ngannou's old trainer and has already sparred with Francis, suggests he will have a plan to mitigate the initial onslaught, then gradually start going after his legs or taking him down.

I hope you are right. I want to see a good fight. However, Gane hasn't had the level of competition that Ngannou has had. Ngannou has a lot of experience at the highest level and that counts for something. Gane has only a handful of fights and will now be facing the scariest motherfecker on the planet for a title fight in what would be a massive PPV event. It will be interesting to see if the moment can have an affect on him.

 

[JPRouve]

This is true, but more-so with Ngannou, who doesn't even need to land clean to switch them lights off.

I think he'd KO me if he touched gloves.

But that's acknowledge, I don't think that I have seen anyone not mention that point before going into what each fighters are good at. It's a bit like Tuivasa, he can knockout anyone in the HW division but we can't really stop the conversation at that?

 

[Dirty Schwein]

But that's acknowledge, I don't think that I have seen anyone not mention that point before going into what each fighters are good at. It's a bit like Tuivasa, he can knockout anyone in the HW division but we can't really stop the conversation at that?

Sorry I'm a bit confused on what you are saying.

My point was that we're all analysing on ways Gane can topple Francis (which we should be doing) but I'd find it funny if on the night, it ends like the rest of the Ngannou fights.

 

[Raoul]

Its going to be a hell of chess match given that Francis should know exactly what he's up against.

 

[JPRouve]

Sorry I'm a bit confused on what you are saying.

My point was that we're all analysing on ways Gane can topple Francis (which we should be doing) but I'd find it funny if on the night, it ends like the rest of the Ngannou fights.

I see, I took it as it was the only reasonable outcome. My bad.

 

[Fortitude]

The Stipe of last year was three years older and more punch drunk than the 35 year old Stipe who was still at the tail end of his prime years during fight one. Obviously an older Stipe was not going to be as effective against an in form Ngannou who was specifically training to avoid takedowns in fight two. This also suggests that Francis is not comfortable on the ground and has to keep the fight standing up at all costs.



Lewis and Ngannou are both brawlers. Stylistically different, but still one dimensionally reliant on their right hands to win fights.



The reality is you don't know which version of Francis is going to show up. Are you going to get the timid version that was scared to engage with Lewis ? Are you going to get the frustrated version who lost to Miocic ? Or are you going to get the flailing bomb thrower who easily dispatched Cain, Overreem, and Rozenstruik ? You just don't know, which is not entirely helpful in assessing his fights.



Well he easily dispatched Derrick Lewis, humiliating him before his home crowd - which Francis, for some reason, wasn't able to to do.



I don't think its recency bias as much as balancing out the narrative that Francis would have some sort of advantage over Gane. Francis is easily the best puncher in all of MMA, but as has been demonstrated by Stipe, you can still beat him, and Gane has at least as much chance of winning as Stipe had going into fight one.

Stipe was deemed old after the fact; I doubt you'll find a post in here pointing to his age or battle weariness prior to that bout. The focus was all on N'Gannou and whether he had the nerves and takedown defence to prevent the same thing from happening again.

The marveling and credit was given to N'Gannou after he went in there and proved he had learned and could overcome.

Also, if you're going to use the first fight as any kind of template, it has to be considered in its entirety, which means an N'Gannou who was not himself and unnerved by the occasion. He said himself losing that fight was the best thing that could have happened to him because it allowed him to shore up his weaknesses both mentally and with his game. In other words Stipe did not fight the same guy in the first to the second fight, so it's not just his age or tenderising that needs to be accounted for.

N'Gannou isn't reliant on his right hand in the slightest. Everything he throws off either hand can end a fight instantly, and you're going to have to explain how a brawler is connecting punches with vital weak spots in chins and jawlines with such accuracy if you're going to insist on calling a clearly competent boxer a brawler. I suspect you're taken in by the after effect of N'Gannou finishing over zealously and not taking in the lead up to those points.

You're messing up timelines to make a point of which 'version' you'd get. There's a clear journey and trajectory to what happened with N'Gannou; he lost, he was broken and a shadow of himself for a while and then he got his confidence back and developed rapidly from that point on. Ring rust and being ostracised by Dana would be the bigger factor, as far as I am concerned.

I think it's quite clear Gane is basking in the light of being the only big gun active of the four - extrapolating from fights with a lower stock of fighter is something different to seeing the best of the best going at it. 'Boards don't hit back..' so the saying goes, so of course it's a showcase and platform for one as competent as Gane to shine against, what is, legitimately a hail Mary fighter with a puncher's chance of winning.

I do rate Gane, and should have posts in here backing that, but all this talk of him being the favourite and the guy who is destined to be king is based off of next to nothing in relative terms of the journeys of both Stipe and N'Gannou, and Jones is the best of all time with it only being a question of whether he can transition from LHW to HW to immediately be in contention, but even for Jones, it's premature to proclaim him anything in the HW division until he proved it against the big guns - if his winning run was against the same opponents as Gane has dispatched, it wouldn't be much more valid because these are not close to the best in the division so can't be used as a frame of reference for anything but an incremental step to actually showing and proving against the top guys.

As I said in my last post: if the UFC match making model wasn't so broken, Gane would not even be in the conversation until he had another fight or two at which point it'd be a legitimate gripe if he wasn't in the discussion for a title shot.

 

[Raoul]

Stipe was deemed old after the fact; I doubt you'll find a post in here pointing to his age or battle weariness prior to that bout. The focus was all on N'Gannou and whether he had the nerves and takedown defence to prevent the same thing from happening again.

Well yes. After he looked not as good at 38 as he did at 35, age was obviously going to creep into the conversation. As was the fact that his lazy demeanor leading up to fight two looked like he's been hit a few too many times during his career.

As I said in my last post: if the UFC match making model wasn't so broken, Gane would not even be in the conversation until he had another fight or two at which point it'd be a legitimate gripe if he wasn't in the discussion for a title shot.

There's no one else Gane could face before Francis imo. He already beat Lewis quite easily, who himself was being lined up for a potential title shot, and he already plowed through Rozenstruik, Volkov, and JdS en route to facing Lewis. The only other options would've been Stipe (who is already being lined up for something else, possibly a Jones fight) and Curtis Blades who Lewis just pancaked recently. Therefore the only other option was Francis (which makes perfect sense given that he now has the interim belt).

 

[Fortitude]

Well yes. After he looked not as good at 38 as he did at 35, age was obviously going to creep into the conversation. As was the fact that his lazy demeanor leading up to fight two looked like he's been hit a few too many times during his career.



There's no one else Gane could face before Francis imo. He already beat Lewis quite easily, who himself was being lined up for a potential title shot, and he already plowed through Rozenstruik, Volkov, and JdS en route to facing Lewis. The only other options would've been Stipe (who is already being lined up for something else, possibly a Jones fight) and Curtis Blades who Lewis just pancaked recently. Therefore the only other option was Francis (which makes perfect sense given that he now has the interim belt).

But hindsight doesn’t mean anything; if it’s a genuine concern or consideration, it’s raised before, not after the fact. Nobody thought it was an issue in the lead up to the bout, so the question becomes: was Stipe made to look that way, or, is it even a thing? I don’t remember any lazy demeanor; in the posts since, there are posters stating Stipe made a tactical error and could have turned the fight. It can’t be both things - it’s one or the other.

Gane, for me, has been a beneficiary of the ongoing politics of all 3 big guns being shafted at the same time by a corrupt matchmaker who shouldn’t be dictating the fights and curtailing 3 careers at the same time and wasting good years for all of them in the process. Gane is a useful pawn being played to put noses out of joint and take power away from those seen as getting too big for their boots by asking for their worth. Gane’s just happy to be there, and, for now, toes the company line and does not speak out of turn.

I’m not launching a tirade against Gane, but the HW alignment is a complete mess because of Dana, and under normal circumstances, he’d [Gane] have had to run the gauntlet like those who went on to become champions. Regarding Lewis, I’d say the exact same thing; from that to title fight is only happening because all elephants have been removed from the room against their will.

 

[Raoul]

But hindsight doesn’t mean anything; if it’s a genuine concern or consideration, it’s raised before, not after the fact. Nobody thought it was an issue in the lead up to the bout, so the question becomes: was Stipe made to look that way, or, is it even a thing? I don’t remember any lazy demeanor; in the posts since, there are posters stating Stipe made a tactical error and could have turned the fight. It can’t be both things - it’s one or the other.

Gane, for me, has been a beneficiary of the ongoing politics of all 3 big guns being shafted at the same time by a corrupt matchmaker who shouldn’t be dictating the fights and curtailing 3 careers at the same time and wasting good years for all of them in the process. Gane is a useful pawn being played to put noses out of joint and take power away from those seen as getting too big for their boots by asking for their worth. Gane’s just happy to be there, and, for now, toes the company line and does not speak out of turn.

I’m not launching a tirade against Gane, but the HW alignment is a complete mess because of Dana, and under normal circumstances, he’d [Gane] have had to run the gauntlet like those who went on to become champions. Regarding Lewis, I’d say the exact same thing; from that to title fight is only happening because all elephants have been removed from the room against their will.

Who else in Heavyweight would you have Gane face given that we've already eliminated every plausible opponent as already defeated or busy with other fights ?

 

[JPRouve]

Who else in Heavyweight would you have Gane face given that we've already eliminated every plausible opponent as already defeated or busy with other fights ?

Before the interim belt, Jon Jones would have been a great matchup. Now there is only Ngannou, the loser should fight Jones and the winner of that fight should fight for the belt.

 

[Raoul]

Before the interim belt, Jon Jones would have been a great matchup. Now there is only Ngannou, the loser should fight Jones and the winner of that fight should fight for the belt.

That's how I read it as well. Jones v Ngannou hasn't materialized and Francis just beat Stipe, so Gane's clobbering of Lewis means he's the only plausible option, especially now that he owns the interim belt. Time to unite the belts.

 

[Fortitude]

Who else in Heavyweight would you have Gane face given that we've already eliminated every plausible opponent as already defeated or busy with other fights ?

In more normal times I think the gamut would have been Blaydes and then Stipe to match for the title shot. Jones is the outlier who doesn’t even have a HW rank, but would most certainly have gotten the title shot on the basis of being who he is.

You stated that Lewis beating Blaydes would make him redundant, but styles make fights and Blaydes is basically a gatekeeper to be fed as a penultimate snack before the big matchups begin. But when you take out the #1, 2 & 3 guys, like Dana has done with nary a query (!), that normal trajectory gets kibboshed.

Gane gets a title fight, but how absurd is it when he has no pedigree and two that do are being maliciously sidelined whilst Francis twiddles his thumbs? For the sake of screwing Dana‘S antics, it would be fantastic if Francis scuppers everything and removes the political pawn in a flash, there’d be nowhere else for Dana to run to, although who am I kidding: he’d just make up a new WWE style belt whilst refusing to let the recalcitrant participate.

 

[Raoul]

In more normal times I think the gamut would have been Blaydes and then Stipe to match for the title shot. Jones is the outlier who doesn’t even have a HW rank, but would most certainly have gotten the title shot on the basis of being who he is.

You stated that Lewis beating Blaydes would make him redundant, but styles make fights and Blaydes is basically a gatekeeper to be fed as a penultimate snack before the big matchups begin. But when you take out the #1, 2 & 3 guys, like Dana has done with nary a query (!), that normal trajectory gets kibboshed.

Gane gets a title fight, but how absurd is it when he has no pedigree and two that do are being maliciously sidelined whilst Francis twiddles his thumbs? For the sake of screwing Dana‘S antics, it would be fantastic if Francis scuppers everything and removes the political pawn in a flash, there’d be nowhere else for Dana to run to, although who am I kidding: he’d just make up a new WWE style belt whilst refusing to let the recalcitrant participate.

Blaydes slid down the pecking order - not just because he lost to Lewis, but how he lost. So obviously the guy that easily dispatches Lewis isn't going to then go backwards just to fight someone well below him in the rankings when he could fight for the belt.

 

[Fortitude]

Blaydes slid down the pecking order - not just because he lost to Lewis, but how he lost. So obviously the guy that easily dispatches Lewis isn't going to then go backwards just to fight someone well below him in the rankings when he could fight for the belt.

A manufactured run for the belt, asterisk worthy for the shenanigans in place. If you destroy the natural order and just make things up as you feel like, as Dana has done, then nothing is just and right anymore.

Gane’s camp can rightfully be delighted, but everyone else should be even more pissed off than they were with just the payment situation.

 

[Raoul]

A manufactured run for the belt, asterisk worthy for the shenanigans in place. If you destroy the natural order and just make things up as you feel like, as Dana has done, then nothing is just and right anymore.

Gane’s camp can rightfully be delighted, but everyone else should be even more pissed off than they were with just the payment situation.

Who is "everyone else" ? Gane has already beaten several notable fighters en route to fighting Ngannou, so none of them have any grounds to feel aggrieved. Blaydes got destroyed by Lewis and Stipe just lost to Ngannou so that leaves literally no one for Gane to fight other than Ngannou.

 

[JPRouve]

Who is "everyone else" ? Gane has already beaten several notable fighters en route to fighting Ngannou, so none of them have any grounds to feel aggrieved. Blaydes got destroyed by Lewis and Stipe just lost to Ngannou so that leaves literally no one for Gane to fight other than Ngannou.

The missing piece is Gane vs Miocic. Since Lewis failed to touch Gane it could be reasonable to have him fight in November against Miocic and then reunite the beilt in maybe April 2022? But that's a long time out for Ngannou.

Edit: The other issue is the lack of high profile fights for Jones outside of maybe Rozenstruik?

 

[Fortitude]

Tells you the state of UFC when fighters see Dana as preferred option to negotiate with.

Morning Report: Sean O’Malley criticizes the UFC: ‘Why do they have a problem paying someone what they’re worth?’

At UFC 264 last month, O’Malley turned in a Fight of the Night winning performance, finally stopping Kris Moutinho in the third round, after battering the short-notice replacement for the better part of 15 minutes. But despite his impressive performance and rising popularity with the fans, O’Malley says he feels disrespected by the UFC, specifically, by matchmaker Sean Shelby.

“I don’t even know if I’m supposed to say this. I was talking to my manager and he was talking to Sean Shelby and Sean Shelby was mad at me,” O’Malley said on his podcast recently. “Dude, I don’t wanna fight in New York. It’s far, the taxes are ridiculous, and Tim (Welch) has no-Gi ADCC trials that weekend. He told me that before I even potentially had a fight. So, that’s his thing and I’m not gonna say, ‘No. I have a fight, we’re doing it.’ Especially when I could fight like a month later in Vegas. And Sean Shelby was just like, mad and like, ‘Fine. Go hang out with 6ix9ine’. Just acting like a f*cking tool, dude. I don’t know if I should’ve said that or not. But it’s like, dude, come on. What are you doing?”

https://www.mmafighting.com/platfor...ve-a-problem-paying-someone-what-theyre-worth

 

[Oggmonster]

Tells you the state of UFC when fighters see Dana as preferred option to negotiate with.

Morning Report: Sean O’Malley criticizes the UFC: ‘Why do they have a problem paying someone what they’re worth?’

At UFC 264 last month, O’Malley turned in a Fight of the Night winning performance, finally stopping Kris Moutinho in the third round, after battering the short-notice replacement for the better part of 15 minutes. But despite his impressive performance and rising popularity with the fans, O’Malley says he feels disrespected by the UFC, specifically, by matchmaker Sean Shelby.

https://www.mmafighting.com/platfor...ve-a-problem-paying-someone-what-theyre-worth

O'Malley gets paid very well for fighting bums though. I get this complaint off the likes of Jones, Stipe, even McGregor can say he's underpaid

 

[Fortitude]

O'Malley gets paid very well for fighting bums though. I get this complaint off the likes of Jones, Stipe, even McGregor can say he's underpaid

If he keeps on entertaining the audience he’s going to be a big draw soon enough, and I’m pretty sure he’s negotiating for representative growth and acknowledgement of that. Why not write ifs or buts into incentivised contracts that fighters can either fall or grow by? By preventing the fighters from individual and independent sponsorship, these contracts are all they have.

It really shouldn’t be like it is and the voices of dissent are growing. I wish they could unionise, but they’ll never get enough numbers for that to happen.

 

[Oggmonster]

If he keeps on entertaining the audience he’s going to be a big draw soon enough, and I’m pretty sure he’s negotiating for representative growth and acknowledgement of that. Why not write ifs or buts into incentivised contracts that fighters can either fall or grow by? By preventing the fighters from individual and independent sponsorship, these contracts are all they have.

It really shouldn’t be like it is and the voices of dissent are growing. I wish they could unionise, but they’ll never get enough numbers for that to happen.

I don't disagree with any of that. It's just odd a guy who at the moment is very well paid for the level of opposition he is fighting is complaning.

It's really boring people talking about fighter pay now to be honest. If they're that arsed do something about it as a collective. They won't like you say, they never will so I'll just watch the fights and be entertained by them...will worry about my own pay first!

 

[Beans]

When the UFC was sold I saw something from the info they presented to investors, how their model paid fighters about 1/3 of profits instead of the 1/2 that we see in the major spots. I expect keeping down salaries is still a huge point for those investors. Their bully tactics are surely well known.

I need to start supporting other fighting leagues, hopefully someone can challenge UFC by offering fighters a more fair cut. Ultimately UFC is meaningless, if all those fighters signed for another acronym it wouldn't matter at all. But lose all the fighters would mean disaster.

Since this all started with people fighting for pride there's not a demand from fighters or fans that fighters make enough to support themselves and pay for training and whatever. The money was never very good until recently for much of anyone, especially after kit sponsorship was taken away (which still seems crazy, the UFC hasn't been able to raise the same kind of money selling advertising space on their kits to Reebok as the fighters were independently).

The UFC fighters need a collective bargaining agreement, surely.

 

[T00lsh3d]

Tells you the state of UFC when fighters see Dana as preferred option to negotiate with.

Morning Report: Sean O’Malley criticizes the UFC: ‘Why do they have a problem paying someone what they’re worth?’

At UFC 264 last month, O’Malley turned in a Fight of the Night winning performance, finally stopping Kris Moutinho in the third round, after battering the short-notice replacement for the better part of 15 minutes. But despite his impressive performance and rising popularity with the fans, O’Malley says he feels disrespected by the UFC, specifically, by matchmaker Sean Shelby.

https://www.mmafighting.com/platfor...ve-a-problem-paying-someone-what-theyre-worth

Also from that interview:


“Why do they have a problem paying someone what they’re worth? That shouldn’t be an issue.

“Especially when I’m blowing up like that; those last two fights, third-round finishes, handing out brain damage.

“You should be like, ‘Hell yeah, I’m going to pay you a lot. You earned it.’ Dude, I was UFC 264.”

I have little sympathy for him. ‘Handing out brain damage’, to a late replacement who had no business being in there? Thinking he was ufc264 (he clearly wasn’t). Pay issue or not, the guys a prick

 

[Fortitude]

I don't disagree with any of that. It's just odd a guy who at the moment is very well paid for the level of opposition he is fighting is complaning.

It's really boring people talking about fighter pay now to be honest. If they're that arsed do something about it as a collective. They won't like you say, they never will so I'll just watch the fights and be entertained by them...will worry about my own pay first!

But it’s the fear of being cut that prevents them from doing so. UFC isn’t as corrupt as boxing, but at least in boxing, once you get to a certain level, you’re set for life and remunerated in accordance to the deals you and your management can strike. Plus, all sponsorship is your own. It’s appalling what Dana and his cronies get away with.

I won’t get tired of the subject, personally because the situation is getting worse for the fighter now that the cash cows are no longer being milked. The dissent grows, so the foot on the proverbial neck has to be pressed down harder, which is where the insights into what’s going on behind the scenes is leaking from.

For me, what’s even stranger is a broad range of sponsors would bring more into the UFC than a shitty deal with Reebok. They could have struck deals with sponsors of fighters that were beneficial to both parties. If they don’t intend to pay the fighters directly, why not do it by proxy?

 

[Fortitude]

When the UFC was sold I saw something from the info they presented to investors, how their model paid fighters about 1/3 of profits instead of the 1/2 that we see in the major spots. I expect keeping down salaries is still a huge point for those investors. Their bully tactics are surely well known.

I need to start supporting other fighting leagues, hopefully someone can challenge UFC by offering fighters a more fair cut. Ultimately UFC is meaningless, if all those fighters signed for another acronym it wouldn't matter at all. But lose all the fighters would mean disaster.

Since this all started with people fighting for pride there's not a demand from fighters or fans that fighters make enough to support themselves and pay for training and whatever. The money was never very good until recently for much of anyone, especially after kit sponsorship was taken away (which still seems crazy, the UFC hasn't been able to raise the same kind of money selling advertising space on their kits to Reebok as the fighters were independently).

The UFC fighters need a collective bargaining agreement, surely.

For the roster in each division, the majority know they can be cut at any time and hungry hopefuls are chomping at the bit to replace them; amongst the draws, some are happy and are paid well (think Diaz brothers), whilst others have been benched for speaking out. There aren’t enough fighters on the same page to unionise, unfortunately.

I would love for a rival organisation to come in and shake the UFC down, but the UFC have struck deals with state commissions and entrenched themselves. I don’t see what can be done to stop the juggernaut now outside of someone being bold enough to make a legal case, which would take some brass balls to do whilst probably costing that fighter his/her career.

 

[Fortitude]

Also from that interview:


“Why do they have a problem paying someone what they’re worth? That shouldn’t be an issue.

“Especially when I’m blowing up like that; those last two fights, third-round finishes, handing out brain damage.

“You should be like, ‘Hell yeah, I’m going to pay you a lot. You earned it.’ Dude, I was UFC 264.”

I have little sympathy for him. ‘Handing out brain damage’, to a late replacement who had no business being in there? Thinking he was ufc264 (he clearly wasn’t). Pay issue or not, the guys a prick

He is, but his point is still valid. Combat sports are the hurt game, and even words like that will be a draw for some people. Also by being divisive, just as many will tune in to watch him fight as they will hoping to watch him get knocked out. Fighters say foul things all the time, and it’s only when they cross lines like McGregor that people say that’s beyond the pale.

 

[Beans]

For the roster in each division, the majority know they can be cut at any time and hungry hopefuls are chomping at the bit to replace them; amongst the draws, some are happy and are paid well (think Diaz brothers), whilst others have been benched for speaking out. There aren’t enough fighters on the same page to unionise, unfortunately.

I would love for a rival organisation to come in and shake the UFC down, but the UFC have struck deals with state commissions and entrenched themselves. I don’t see what can be done to stop the juggernaut now outside of someone being bold enough to make a legal case, which would take some brass balls to do whilst probably costing that fighter his/her career.

Agree with the first paragraph, they'd rather cut just about anyone than pay more than they want to. If you're decent and you'll stand and bang like that Diego Sanchez vs Gilbert Melendez fight then they'll pay up, at least they did with Melendez (though I think the UFC regretted that contact as GM went from contender to also ran very quickly after that fight). But who knows, maybe they feel like they have enough guys willing to bleed in the wings now and wouldn't be swayed now in a similar situation.

I do see a solution, though, which is Bellator, or eventually someone else, agrees to pay fighters the 50% cut instead of 33% and the UFC have to match our lose most of their best guys. But, Bellator probably like these suppressed wages too, they've never tried to out spend the UFC even though their parent company could do it if they wanted.

But maybe someone else, maybe a league started by fighters or investors who are fans, who care more about a good product than profits? Hell, some jaded rich person might take the high road on fighter pay just for the PR points and internet love, as free advertisement for this other league. Worth paying a bigger cut it out gets you on top when you weren't.

 

[Dirty Schwein]

For me, what’s even stranger is a broad range of sponsors would bring more into the UFC than a shitty deal with Reebok. They could have struck deals with sponsors of fighters that were beneficial to both parties. If they don’t intend to pay the fighters directly, why not do it by proxy?

It's more annoying when you remember, the UFC has kept its multiple sponsors. It just forced the fighters to not have the same.

 

[Oggmonster]

But it’s the fear of being cut that prevents them from doing so. UFC isn’t as corrupt as boxing, but at least in boxing, once you get to a certain level, you’re set for life and remunerated in accordance to the deals you and your management can strike. Plus, all sponsorship is your own. It’s appalling what Dana and his cronies get away with.

I won’t get tired of the subject, personally because the situation is getting worse for the fighter now that the cash cows are no longer being milked. The dissent grows, so the foot on the proverbial neck has to be pressed down harder, which is where the insights into what’s going on behind the scenes is leaking from.

For me, what’s even stranger is a broad range of sponsors would bring more into the UFC than a shitty deal with Reebok. They could have struck deals with sponsors of fighters that were beneficial to both parties. If they don’t intend to pay the fighters directly, why not do it by proxy?

I don't know about that in boxing, plenty of fighters are taken advantage of early in their career and stuck in shit deals where their management gets massive cuts of any earning including sponsorship. Equally look at most boxing cards even the massive Mayweather ones there's plenty of people making less than 10k to fight.

For me it's just a tired subject, nothing gets done so I can't be arsed getting up in arms about it. A person I don't know isn't getting paid what they want, yeah it's shit cos they risk their health etc but I'm not gonna get that worked up about it. It's just a bit alien to me to see people ranting about it for years, it seems a massive waste of energy.