The Make A Fecking Sub Ole Thread

[Gandalf Greyhame]

I still find it hard to believe his subs.

It's as if his decisions reveal a greater faith in the individual quality of his best XI than his own tactics or in-game assessment. And we shouldn't keep a manager like that.

Everyone complaining about squad depth can feck right off, we had far better bench options than Villarreal and surrendered ET simply because we were tired and their fresh subs were not.

Completely on Ole.

 

[Lee565]

It's not even the fact that he didn't make a sub, he didn't even dare change anything tactically throughout the match, he is all about playing it safe, he's basically the Norwegian southgate

 

[stw2022]

It's not even the fact that he didn't make a sub, he didn't even dare change anything tactically throughout the match, he is all about playing it safe, he's basically the Norwegian southgate

He never changes anything tactically. He’s an incredibly passive manager who seems incapable of reacting to the game

 

[Doracle]

He once played Rafael and Fabio as wingers.

Did he bring them on for Beckham and Giggs when we needed a goal?

 

[Ixion]

Did he bring them on for Beckham and Giggs when we needed a goal?

Do you think anyone was playing like Beckham and Giggs on Wednesday? They were all playing shite and no one was above getting subbed.

2 shots on target in 120 minutes cannot be defended (and 1 of those was down to luck). It wasn't working and something had to change, whether its the players or the tactics. We mocked Moyes for 80 crosses against Fulham and not trying anything different and this is just as bad. If something isn't working you change it unless your plan is for penalties or hope someone just pulls a rabbit out of the hat for you.

 

[The Hilton]

I'm a big fan of what Ole has achieved here, yet I have to agree that this is the weakest part of his management.

His reluctance to use subs is partly what cost us at the end of the season - the 12/13 players that he trusts have been run in to the ground.

He's obviously got some tactical nous, as demonstrated by the way he often has Pep in his pocket, and we've had some excellent big game performances, but a lot of energy and running is required against parked buses and it looks like we need more strength in depth. (that he trusts to rotate/sub in) to be able to maintain that energy throughout a season.

 

[DRJosh]

I still find it hard to believe his subs.

It's as if his decisions reveal a greater faith in the individual quality of his best XI than his own tactics or in-game assessment. And we shouldn't keep a manager like that.

Everyone complaining about squad depth can feck right off, we had far better bench options than Villarreal and surrendered ET simply because we were tired and their fresh subs were not.

Completely on Ole.

I don’t think anyone can argue against the fact that his lack of top-level experience showed big time on the night.

Has he given a firm answer in post-match interviews on why he refused to make any substitutions in regulation time? I’m struggling to understand the reasons why

 

[stw2022]

I don’t think he trusts himself and his ability to influence games.

 

[Doracle]

Do you think anyone was playing like Beckham and Giggs on Wednesday? They were all playing shite and no one was above getting subbed.

2 shots on target in 120 minutes cannot be defended (and 1 of those was down to luck). It wasn't working and something had to change, whether its the players or the tactics. We mocked Moyes for 80 crosses against Fulham and not trying anything different and this is just as bad. If something isn't working you change it unless your plan is for penalties or hope someone just pulls a rabbit out of the hat for you.

I only saw from our equaliser onwards. Shaw and Rashford were linking up well, as were AWB and Greenwood, and Cavani looked dangerous. Mctominay was playing brilliantly and we were well on top. Bruno and Pogba seemed to be struggling a bit but there’s no way anyone in their right mind would replace either of them with DVB (on this seasons evidence) or Mata.

The reality is that there’s a big drop off from our first team to that bench. I’d have made subs earlier in extra time given we started to look tired but this didn’t strike me as a match where Ole did much wrong, save for not removing DDG before the penalties!

 

[Scorpy]

Basically pissed extra time down the drain by not making enough subs to freshen things up and push for the win.

We all know what happened in the shootout and you could see it a fecking mile away.

 

[Judas]

When he's got more on the bench he's never that afraid to use them. I think that's part of the issue. We've got such poor depth, and he clearly doesn't have much faith or belief in what we have in reserve when the best lads are out there.

 

[Ixion]

I only saw from our equaliser onwards. Shaw and Rashford were linking up well, as were AWB and Greenwood, and Cavani looked dangerous. Mctominay was playing brilliantly and we were well on top. Bruno and Pogba seemed to be struggling a bit but there’s no way anyone in their right mind would replace either of them with DVB (on this seasons evidence) or Mata.

Well funnily enough Ole himself said he was most disappointed how we played after the equaliser because we didn't control the game and created nothing. We didn't have another shot on target after the equaliser so I'm not sure what you saw that looked dangerous. The players on the pitch were totally out of ideas and come extra time it was Villarreal in charge.

I'm not sure what game people watched where they thought we played well, were on top, creating chances? It was an awful performance.

 

[mancan92]

Did he bring them on for Beckham and Giggs when we needed a goal?

No but he brought on John oshea at striker for Rooney against Liverpool and he scored the winning goal.

 

[Rilz]

I hate arguments like this. Who bought Dan James? Who asked Ole to start all his “trusted” attackers? This isn’t a lack of depth situation. It was poor game management from Ole, simple. The blame solely lies on his head.

It sure wasn't ole was it.

It was obvious we needed subs but at the same time, if our attack featuring bruno pogba greenwood and cavani werent breaking through the Villareal who on the bench apart from maybe Mata would stand a chance?

 

[Doracle]

Well funnily enough Ole himself said he was most disappointed how we played after the equaliser because we didn't control the game and created nothing. We didn't have another shot on target after the equaliser so I'm not sure what you saw that looked dangerous. The players on the pitch were totally out of ideas and come extra time it was Villarreal in charge.

I'm not sure what game people watched where they thought we played well, were on top, creating chances? It was an awful performance.

So who would you have brought on after 75 minutes? Fred for Pogba? Mata for Bruno? James for Rashford? This is a thread about Ole’s poor substitutions so it should be easy but I’ve seen little suggestion of the actual subs he should have made. Nail your colours to the mast and say which players you think would have made the difference.

 

[Doracle]

No but he brought on John oshea at striker for Rooney against Liverpool and he scored the winning goal.

So Ferguson took off an injured player and his replacement scored. Do you think he’d have replaced Rooney with John O’Shea if Rooney hadn’t been injured?

 

[Doracle]

When he's got more on the bench he's never that afraid to use them. I think that's part of the issue. We've got such poor depth, and he clearly doesn't have much faith or belief in what we have in reserve when the best lads are out there.

Exactly this. We have the 4th or 5th best squad in the league after years of poor investment and mis-management. Our squad depth isn’t good enough for a club of our size. If Ole had Bernardo Silva, Sterling or Aguero on the bench I’ve no doubt they’d have been on.

 

[Inigo Montoya]

So who would you have brought on after 75 minutes? Fred for Pogba? Mata for Bruno? James for Rashford? This is a thread about Ole’s poor substitutions so it should be easy but I’ve seen little suggestion of the actual subs he should have made. Nail your colours to the mast and say which players you think would have made the difference.

Spot on! No one complained at the line up. Most never wanted a double pivot. Fred did pick up a knock. Most would have a semi fit Rashford over James.

Ludicrous over reaction at times. If we’re talking about his ability to motivate a side then that’s a separate debate

 

[BlackBen]

It sure wasn't ole was it.

It was obvious we needed subs but at the same time, if our attack featuring bruno pogba greenwood and cavani werent breaking through the Villareal who on the bench apart from maybe Mata would stand a chance?

You must be kidding right? It’s well documented and Ole himself has said he has the final say on approving and vetoing transfers . That’s a very weak rebuttal.

Amad came on against a strong Milan defense and scored within minutes. Donny could or couldn’t have made a difference. We’ll never know because Ole never gave the bench a chance to have an impact.

And can you please stop using the weak bench argument? Most of our bench will start for Villarreal.

 

[Inigo Montoya]

No but he brought on John oshea at striker for Rooney against Liverpool and he scored the winning goal.

When Liverpool were really not very good and we had a huge psychological edge over them and most teams .

We don’t anymore

 

[Stacks]

When he's got more on the bench he's never that afraid to use them. I think that's part of the issue. We've got such poor depth, and he clearly doesn't have much faith or belief in what we have in reserve when the best lads are out there.

So the likes of Telles VDB Matic, Diallo, James aren't good enough to compete against mid table Spanish teams or replace a 3/10 Rashford? Why sign those 4 then if they can't be used? Isn't that part of our poor transfer dealings? How come they were able to make 5 changes?

Exactly this. We have the 4th or 5th best squad in the league after years of poor investment and mis-management. Our squad depth isn’t good enough for a club of our size. If Ole had Bernardo Silva, Sterling or Aguero on the bench I’ve no doubt they’d have been on.

5 of the played on the bench were signed under Ole

 

[SAFMUTD]

He never changes anything tactically. He’s an incredibly passive manager who seems incapable of reacting to the game

I think he just doesn't know how to, he found a formation that delivered results but if that doesn't work there's no plan B.

How many games do you remember Ole changing tactics at all?

It's either counter attack or double pivot, that's it's.

 

[Abraxas]

I'm a big fan of the overall job he has done, even if I'm not totally sure if he will take us to the next level.

The weird thing is I don't think Ole is tactically incompetent, he has displayed good understanding at times in big matches. Things that don't appear to be random luck but a concerted effort to exploit the opposition. We have our weaknesses in breaking teams down, but it's somewhat overplayed in the sense that most teams struggle against completely defensive teams and teams are terrified of our counter so play accordingly. Plus maybe we lack some technical ability in areas, so I don't believe this is purely about the manager.

But his approach to subs is completely baffling. The only thing that makes sense is a lack of faith in the squad. Otherwise it's impossible to think he could use his bench so conservatively when all the evidence was there that we couldn't get near to the opposition. The manager is not a stupid man and will have noticed this, he reasoned we were still better off with what he had but I don't think this was correct. It's not just this game, he waits too long in general. It's as if there is a rigidness to stick to whatever the original brief prior to the game was.

When he reflects on things this has to be something he looks at to become a better manager.

 

[croadyman]

Just remembered one of Ole's pre game quotes was be angry with me for not starting but be ready to make a difference, well what happened to those words then because we certainly saw no evidence of him taking a risk

 

[Hernandez - BFA]

Certainly my biggest bug-bear with Ole. It’s a huge one as well. It says a lot that there’s a thread about how late he is at reacting to games with his massively delayed substitutes.

I mean I find it truly bizarre to bring on James with 4 minutes to play. The man’s best attribute is his pace - why not give him at least 10-15 minutes to stretch the defenders and give the option of a ball over the top to chase. It’s mighty fortunate that he scored the penalty, otherwise it would have been seen as an atrocious decision.

I understand we were “dominating” the second half - but that doesn’t mean that you don’t touch the team at all and make them run into the ground. We looked gassed after the 90 minutes. We needed fresh legs on at 70 minutes to up the pressure even more. I feel, as I’m sure a lot of you, the game was there for us to win in the second half but the second they managed to weather our storm, they just gained more and more confidence by the start of extra time.

I understand the importance of preparing for penalties - but I think it says a lot with how many substitutes he saved until the end that he was perfectly over-prepared for it and if anything was happy to try and win it via the shootout route, over being brave and trying to go for the jugular earlier on by bringing on James for some extra pressure on their defenders.

I know it’s easy to talk as an armchair fan, and not in the Ole hot-seat - but I feel the vast majority of great managers, let alone elite, would have made some movement well before Ole’s first sub.

 

[The Oracle]

I think the problem is Ole is not a strategic coach, he's a man managment coach. He cant "afford" to upset any of the best players, he doesnt have the balls to take Rashford or Bruno out, he wont do a thing that compromises the atmosphere of the dressing room.

Greenwood was having a good game and Rashford had his worse game in a long long time, still he subs Greenwood.

He's the type of manager that puts the best players out, works on them being happy and hopes that enough to produce performances and results.

Completely agree with this.

You only have to look at what happened when Mourinho tried to take on one of the best players in the team in Pogba... the atmosphere went toxic and he was soon removed from his position as manager.

Rashford also stayed on the pitch against Villareal because he is one of the club's penalty takers; and therefore in Ole's plans there was no way he was going to sub off Rashford when penalties are a real possibility in a Final.

This hampered us, because Rashford offered absolutely nothing for us in the whole match, and was abysmal.

 

[Desert Eagle]

So Ferguson took off an injured player and his replacement scored. Do you think he’d have replaced Rooney with John O’Shea if Rooney hadn’t been injured?

You do know Rashford has come out and said he was injured right? Why didn't Ole sub out an injured Rashford? As for your sub question I would have either put on Vdb for rashford n push pogba further forward or just straight swap Amad for Rashford.

 

[FahadiHossein]

You think squad for squad they have a better team than us? I have no idea what to say to that.

And can you please stop using the weak bench argument? Most of our bench will start for Villarreal.

United fans have to accept the fact that due to OGS's lack of integration of our bench players, we have a first XI whose form is of top team in the EPL, the bench that seems to be of Fulham level. Subbing one of the players into games is similar to bringing Lookman into the squad. If I were Unai Emery, I will not play vdB over Parejo, Bailly over Pau Torres based on how they have been playing over the past year. The current form of vdB, Bailly, Tuanzebe, Telles and Williams won't even get into the first XI of Aston Villa, let alone Villarreal. My co-worker came and asked me a few weeks, "United will surely win, right?" And I said, "if our first XI can't finish them, we are done."
If it were true that our players would have walked into the Villarreal squad, then Arsenal's Kolasinac and Mustafi would not have gone to Schalke. These three have stopped showing top Bundesliga form for 3~4 years , and they have fallen to the level of a bottom Bundesliga player, which is why they are today only good enough for a struggling Schalke, not Union Berlin.
I am not abstaining OGS of responsibilities over the defeat - he has to take some responsibilities for the failed transfers and why we are buying players and not playing them at all.

 

[Baneofthegame]

United fans have to accept the fact that due to OGS's lack of integration of our bench players, we have a first XI whose form is of top team in the EPL, the bench that seems to be of Fulham level. Subbing one of the players into games is similar to bringing Lookman into the squad. If I were Unai Emery, I will not play vdB over Parejo, Bailly over Pau Torres based on how they have been playing over the past year. The current form of vdB, Bailly, Tuanzebe, Telles and Williams won't even get into the first XI of Aston Villa, let alone Villarreal. My co-worker came and asked me a few weeks, "United will surely win, right?" And I said, "if our first XI can't finish them, we are done."
If it were true that our players would have walked into the Villarreal squad, then Arsenal's Kolasinac and Mustafi would not have gone to Schalke. These three have stopped showing top Bundesliga form for 3~4 years , and they have fallen to the level of a bottom Bundesliga player, which is why they are today only good enough for a struggling Schalke, not Union Berlin.
I am not abstaining OGS of responsibilities over the defeat - he has to take some responsibilities for the failed transfers and why we are buying players and not playing them at all.

The fact is, 4 players worth almost 100 million combined, could not get into the game, these are Oles players.

Subs are not always about replacing or being better than the oppositions best players, Villarreal had no problem subbing 5 of their starting 11 and a further one for penalty purposes.

If we are a dominant team, or even looking to win a game we should never be thinking “Oh I don’t want to sub Rashford because we might go to penalties in 50 minutes”. We should be winning the game in regulation, if we weren’t going to impact the game with our bench, we should of sat Rashford and played McFred from the start, so we could at least affect the game in some way.

Now if we blasted them out in the first half we aren’t talking about it, but we didn’t and here we are, the players themselves have to take some of the blame as well as they didn’t perform in a final.

 

[stw2022]

If you don’t think you have players that are good enough surely you work to make them believe they’re better then they are as part of your job as manager. There aren’t many managers who’ll look to his bench and see players who are superior to those he has on the pitch. Else why are they on the bench to begin with? That’s a ridiculous standard and ignores the reality of tiredness and fatigue and the reality that no matter how good a player is he should not have a doubt the manager wouldn’t hesitate to replace him if his standards drop.

All this ‘we need to spend £300m to be able to make a substitution during regulation time’ is for the birds it really is

 

[Leftback99]

In the 1-0 2007 FA Cup final defeat to Chelsea SAF didn't make a sub until the 92 minute (Smith on for Fletcher). After that it wasn't until the 112th minute (O'Shea for Carrick, Solskjaer for Giggs).

We lost the game in the 116th minute.

It's all just hindsight believing any move you would have made on Wednesday would have worked out with no downside.

 

[stw2022]

In the 1-0 2007 FA Cup final defeat to Chelsea SAF didn't make a sub until the 92 minute (Smith on for Fletcher). After that it wasn't until the 112th minute (O'Shea for Carrick, Solskjaer for Giggs).

We lost the game in the 116th minute.

It's all just hindsight believing any move you would have made on Wednesday would have worked out with no downside.

Any comparisons between Ole and Fergie embarrass those who make them

 

[Leftback99]

Any comparisons between Ole and Fergie embarrass those who make them

My post only embarrasses those like you say other managers would do x y or z with their subs when facts say otherwise.

 

[stw2022]

Ferguson managed thousands of games, lost plenty, made tactical errors and lost cup finals. If you think that means every manager can be compared to him because he ‘also did something wrong once’ then to me that shows how highly you think of him and I’m sorry but I would be embarrassed if I made a comparison between a manager who’s proved nothing and the greatest in the history of the game

 

[Leftback99]

Ferguson managed thousands of games, lost plenty, made tactical errors and lost cup finals. If you think that means every manager can be compared to him because he ‘also did something wrong once’ then to me that shows how highly you think of him and I’m sorry but I would be embarrassed if I made a comparison between a manager who’s proved nothing and the greatest in the history of the game

I can compare to whoever I like. I'm reading this and that manager would do x y z with his subs. I just thought I'd see if it was true.

 

[stw2022]

John Gregory took off his best player in an match in 1998 and lost the lead. Can’t criticise him for it because in 95 Fergie did the same. That’s how comparisons work

 

[Maticmaker]

I suppose when you play what you think is your best team and all your best 5 front players at once and you split up your beloved mid-field 'McFred' combo and only play one of them, something many fans and pundits like Scholesy have been urging you to do against so called 'lesser teams'; and as the game progresses only that one player McTominay , well perhaps Cavani as well, looked like doing anything; and you are still making no headway, then yes look to substitutions!

Who though and when? You have your best eleven out there and lets be honest there is no plan 'B', probably never was!
Emery's yellow-wall' was performing magnificently, we were hardly dented it. Oh for a Darren Fletcher, or J S Park or even Jesse Lingard to run about (even without the ball) in between the lines to sow disruption and to take advantage of tired legs and minds, create an opening or a chance for one of the front five to win you the game?
Or put on your best two midfield 'move and pass' players, (arguably Mata and DVB) maybe their quick fire yet subtle approach might provide the key?
Who to take off ? Go to back three (Bailly AWB off?), maybe take worse performing of the front five off (had to be Rashford, having a stinker, or Greenwood getting frustrated), trouble is all this needs thought and times running out!

Trouble is, Ole's plan 'A' did not survive the first contact with the enemy(when they scored a cutely worked goal, yet again from a set play) and there was no plan 'B'.

Hindsight's great isn't it!!!

 

[Leftback99]

John Gregory took off his best player in an match in 1998 and lost the lead. Can’t criticise him for it because in 95 Fergie did the same. That’s how comparisons work

Funny. Which games?

 

[tenpoless]

Trouble is, Ole's plan 'A' did not survive the first contact with the enemy(when they scored a cutely worked goal, yet again from a set play) and there was no plan 'B'.

Indeed and what drives me crazy sometimes is that he did end up making changes but it's too late.

 

[Maticmaker]

Indeed and what drives me crazy sometimes is that he did end up making changes but it's too late.

Yes, I suspect the changes were so late that what he did make were more about replacing tired legs and trying to ensure we had some 'pen- takers' on the field.
Going into a final, any final without a plan 'B' does show up some lack of experience in Ole. You cant believe the publicity that the opposing team is so inferior to you that you can't lose. Villarreal had got to the same final as we had and not lost in any game. By not having a plan 'B' Ole was at fault.
How many times have we come up against well trained defensive teams who have not only frustrated us, but then gone on to deliver the killer blow. Its happened with teams who have not been able to reach a final, so surely the writing was on the wall on this occasion?

The loss of Maguire was a bigger problem than many thought and then this was compounded (in my mind) by not playing the ''McFred' combo from the start, (I would have laid money that with Maguire missing, the McFred combo would remain) we dug ourselves a hole we could not then get out of.
The big failure though for me was our top front five players, with the exception of Cavani, they really didn't turn up and whilst on many previous occasions 'match winners' everyone, not one of them on that night!