Yup, when he lost his legs he became lazy, but generally something to be expected with that sort of players. Vieira also shared that route in his career.
The "lazy black player" stereotype
- Thread starter Barca84
- Start date
The issue I've seen when issues associated with race is discussed, is that viewpoints and sources of disagreement are branded as racist. It's a way of shutting down debate and perhaps more significant, is an attempt to stop free speech
All you've done in this thread is try and prove how things aren't racist, including trying to discredit organisations that target racism.
The problem with these topics is that the threshold for being called a disgusting racist is quite low. Especially on the internet, where English is not everyone's first language this conclusion is made rather easily. Some people talking about Stormfrontcafe over, admittedly very poorly written, but in the end not unwell meaning posts don't exactly help keep the topic on the rails.
For example the 'maestro' debate, when looked upon without context I think you can indeed state that there are most so called "maestro" players are white. However, the reason for this is quite obviously important; different countries have different standards of living, education, opportunity and I'm not scientist, but I can state quite confidently that the conditions you grow up in, decide the type of human being, or in this case footballer, you become. This stretches also to the general intelligence topic. Our resident right wing nut job, Geert Wilders, shows us studies of African countries with a lower median IQ, which while true, is obviously a result of a lack of education and not something hereditary in black people.
In the end, the ironic thing is that white people who say black people are less intelligent are not intelligent enough to realize the non-hereditary reasons for this. You can have all the good genes in the world, but if your parents don't have enough money to feed and cloth you, let alone pay for you to go to school, you're not going to win any Nobel physics prizes. I'm quite sure someone like Wilders knows this, but he also knows that the people voting for him are dumb as rock racists who will believe it blindly and teach their kids to do the same.
As for this Lukaku debate, calling him a Gorilla is racist as feck. Calling him a lazy player, in my opinion, doesn't have to be.
For example the 'maestro' debate, when looked upon without context I think you can indeed state that there are most so called "maestro" players are white. However, the reason for this is quite obviously important; different countries have different standards of living, education, opportunity and I'm not scientist, but I can state quite confidently that the conditions you grow up in, decide the type of human being, or in this case footballer, you become. This stretches also to the general intelligence topic. Our resident right wing nut job, Geert Wilders, shows us studies of African countries with a lower median IQ, which while true, is obviously a result of a lack of education and not something hereditary in black people.
In the end, the ironic thing is that white people who say black people are less intelligent are not intelligent enough to realize the non-hereditary reasons for this. You can have all the good genes in the world, but if your parents don't have enough money to feed and cloth you, let alone pay for you to go to school, you're not going to win any Nobel physics prizes. I'm quite sure someone like Wilders knows this, but he also knows that the people voting for him are dumb as rock racists who will believe it blindly and teach their kids to do the same.
As for this Lukaku debate, calling him a Gorilla is racist as feck. Calling him a lazy player, in my opinion, doesn't have to be.
That is a racial based assumption that is completely inappropriate. As you are an OP to this thread, you appear to be displaying the negative behaviours and attitudes that you criticise
According to your logic the following comment would be justified.
"Ah look at that shoddy building there, terrible craftsmanship and put together by an idiot. It's probably a (insert a racist slur or reference to an ethnic group) that built that. I've 5 years experience of working on construction sites and 9/10 the work that fails quality control are done by (insert ethnic group) builders"
Would you be happy with that comment or similar?
Or maybe the people on the other side actually feel it has racist connotations. The conversation doesn't have to stop there.
With regards to free speech it seems to me that sometimes people want to be able to say what they want without the responsibility that comes with it. You can say what you want but then someone has the right to be offended and say something back in response. Seems to me that free speech these days people don't want to hear responses to what they have said which I feel is wrong. This goes beyond racism btw.
Anyway the point is if someone is accused of doing or saying something racist, maybe there is a reason why, and maybe they should be able to have discourse over what happened if they didn't intend for it to be perceived in that way. Regardless of who is right or wrong, without said discourse we get no where.
Shutting down people calling our what they perceive to be racism itself is an attack on free speech.
No, he didn't, he just slowed up because he got older.
He was always referred to as lazy, even at his peak. Go back to the numerous threads started about him on Bluemoon around Christmas 2010 that said we'd made the wrong decision because he didn't put enough effort in. It's not just the "laziness" tag that followed him and other black footballers around either. Their performances and quality are judged entirely on their "power" and "physicality". Yaya Toure is one of the greatest and most delicate passers this league has ever seen, yet his defining moment was the barrelling run for the goal he scored against Villa. He did that precisely once in his career but even in the commentary it's referred to as something Toure would "typically" do.
Another example I always use in these discussions concerns one of your own players: Romelu Lukaku. He scored this brilliant goal against Chelsea in the FA Cup in 2016 (below), dancing through four players, tying Cahill in knots and slotting the ball under the keeper. The commentary on the TV only referenced how he'd "powered" his way through the Chelsea defence. Pogba's goal against Swansea in that 4-1 win last season was referred to as a "lazy flick" over the keeper rather than a deft finish. It happens everywhere and it's a massive problem, both in punditry and the terraces.
That's your opinion, but judging by your posts on this topic in this thread, it's not an opinion that I value to change my own viewpoints on this topic
As for the OP I'm not sure if there is a common pattern like this. Lazy players like Lukaku are lazy because of their style and in his case also putting up a few pounds.
Don't think anyone has ever called Valencia or Young lazy for example?
Don't think anyone has ever called Valencia or Young lazy for example?
I think most would agree with that. Doesn't have to be, doesn't mean it isn't and that why the discussion was valid.
I don't think its Lukakus style to be honest, I think much of it is tactical instruction to occupy the CBs
Indeed, but that's a nuance that's easily lost in an internet debate between people who don't speak the same language. Because black people being lazy is pretty much the oldest stereotype in the book. Or at least, in Holland it is. So it's daft to question the existence of said stereotype.
No, that's me reading your posts, it's not an opinion. This includes you falsely trying to connect BLM to an unrelated group, because you didn't want to take an extra 3 minutes of due diligence to find the truth.
And this number;
I don't think you understand what institutional racism means, if you're trying to argue that white football players are effected by it.
I see. Hadn't really crossed my mind that it could be related to race of some sorts. Players like Berba have always carried the lazy tag with them and generally the more languid style of midfielders/forwards aren't really filtered by race. More often than not it's the maestros mentioned in the thread that carry the label.
Surprised to hear that it was a common thing for Yaya during his peak. Yes I've heard it throughout his career but largely I thought was a minority opinion. He was a powerhouse on his day and when he lost a step or two was naturally easier to pass and run through.
I can't respond any further as I received points for derailing the thread when talking about BLM yesterday. If you want to talk about them, I suggest that you find another thread
That is all
That also. He never looked like the pressing type of forward even at Chelsea or Everton.
It's hard to see because it's so insidious and ingrained in European football culture to predominantly draw attention to the physical attributes of players with African heritage that we take it as standard behaviour. Think about how often a black central midfielder is referred to as "the next Vieira" regardless of whether they're actually alike, or how often black strikers are referred to as "the next Drogba", or how N'Golo Kante's ability to play the ball is constantly overlooked by positive descriptions of his "work ethic". It's subconscious to the point where we don't even notice it happening.
That next-whatever thing is silly indeed.
Though honestly, in my mind Donny van de Beek is probably the new Davy Klaassen as well, simply because they play in the same spot and are small white guys with very bright blonde hair.
No it isn't.
You'll have noted however, as I'm sure you've read everything here very carefully, that three times I've stated that we can all be guilty of casual racism. That's four now and will be the last.
This man gets it, thank you.
Well then I'd suggest that you go back and amend your post and post a brief apology
Ozil resigned from his national team because he felt he was being targeted for special abuse for being of Turkish descent. That's a different discussion to players being labelled lazy/fat/stupid whatever because they're a person of colour. Do you think Premier League fans called him lazy because he was Turkish?
Zlatan was mostly successful at United (and one of the best in the world in his career) so no, he didn't get the same abuse. Superbly gifted players generally don't get abused by the fans as much as ones who are both lacking technically but also not prepared to put a shift in. That's where Lukaku falls right now, he looks like a clumsy player who is not prepared to roll his sleeves up and make the runs, his running statistics are poor, he can't hold the ball up and he's not scoring goals. He's going to get abuse, fans will tolerate laziness (berbatov, zlatan, ozil) as long as the player is delivering results. The Lukaku abuse has massively ramped up this season because he's playing like shit, so the fans are frustrated and lashing out at his lack of effort and clumsiness on the ball, I don't think it's at all fair to throw everybody under the same bus and brand them racist.
What is he meant to be lying about? I genuinely haven't seen this. I know he's been mocked for being overweight, but like I said that's as a result of him well .. looking overweight for a footballer. You think his size right now is good for a Premier League athlete meant to be leading the line for a top side? Even the top 'big man' strikers like Drogba or Zlatan were never carrying unnecessary weight. I don't see how this is an issue when the player himself came out and admitted that weight is impacting his game. The fans are going to jump on that.
He is thoughtful and intelligent in interviews, and he speaks multiple languages too. He could speak latin and have a degree in biochemistry and it wouldn't matter for shit if he was looking like an idiot on the pitch. His intelligence is being judged by how he performs on field, and right now he looks clumsy and clueless in equal measure. I feel like anybody saying otherwise hasn't been watching him because simply from observing the Liverpool game, I haven't been so frustrated by a strikers performance in a long time. That isn't because he's black, it's because right now it looks like he has forgotten how to play football.
You know what, the likelihood is it is happening with some people, but you didn't just suggest that did you? What you did was quote a bunch of people at random, some of which posted comments which could have been about any number of players, and branded it casual racism with very little evidence. I'm sure we can all be guilty of unintentional racism from time to time, but the best way to handle that isn't by quoting a bunch of people at random and throwing out big accusations. Make people aware of the stereotypes that exist and work from there, what you did was immediately put people on the defensive.
I don't deny the existence of casual racism, I just think there's a tendency on this board to overuse/misuse the term entirely. It's a very easy thing to accuse somebody of because it appears like you don't really require any genuine evidence to back it up.
Yeah you are right on this. It happens to a lot of things that are around you. You get that used to it that it seems natural. Hate the next thing as well.
Not to some people... Also I guess until you are aware of it how would you know
That would be because N'Golo Kante's work rate is a far more standout and impressive attribute than his ability on the ball. Are we going to start pretending otherwise now to go against the stereotypes? He keeps it simple in possession, there is nothing exceptional about his ball playing abilities. His tackling & ability to put in the work of two midfielders are undoubtedly his greatest assets, that isn't a stereotype it's just a fact about his game. Take away his work rate and you don't have a special player there technically, he's relatively sound in this respect (when not being pressed) but he's not exactly Silva or De Bruyne is he?
As for players being labelled the new Viera, it's generally when they are of a similar size and build to him. Pundits make lazy assumptions based on physicality all the time, every short Argentinian player who emerges is labelled the new Messi even if their playstyle is notably very different to him. Kane is the new Shearer despite actually being a very different kind of striker in many ways, how many Italian players are labelled the new Pirlo as soon as they pull off a decent pass? People like to pigeon hole players and often are lazy and don't actually watch them play much, so make snap judgements based on their physical appearance. Off the top of my head the players to be labelled the new Viera were Diaby & Pogba - both rangy and strong central midfielders .. so it's an easy comparison to a legend.
Lukaku was the only black striker I can remember being referred to as the 'next Drogba', I didn't exactly see it happening with Origi or Welbeck. Again, it's laziness not racism .. both are powerfully built, tall strikers with good ability in the air. Of course stylistically they're very different, but pundits don't really care about that (in the same way that Kane/Shearer are very different stylistically) because a few similarities exist therefore they're the 'new' version of this player.
Fair enough, though when in doubt I'd say it's better to er on the side of caution instead of saying, It doesn't exist you bunch of libtard snowflake NPC sjw's
@SquishyMcSquish
Agree with the lazyness thing. Think that's mostly the case and also what I meant with my Donny van de Beek Davy Klaassen example. Well put.
Fair enough, though when in doubt I'd say it's better to er on the side of caution instead of saying, It doesn't exist you bunch of libtard snowflake NPC sjw's
Yes I agree, but such it the world we live in.
To be fair though, Toure was pretty lazy though in his later years, still a brilliant footballer. Saying Lukaku looks to heavy just means hes to heavy, has nothing to do with his skin additionally, is being heavy even a negative sterotype for black players? When i hear fat player i usually think about Charlie Adam, and hes about as white as it gets, besides calling Lukau fat is just silly. Hes not fat at all, he just packed on way to much muscle, hes a footballer, not a rugby player and right now his physique is more like the latter.
Firstly the point was that Toure was called lazy in his peak not just his later years.
Secondly maybe he wasn't lazy in his later years, he maybe just got old and didn't have the engine? Not saying he wasn't but why is it an automatic that he was, and if you take into account the fact he already had the label before his later years, maybe that gives some context.
Also, Yaya Toure was called lazy because he has a lethargic style off the ball, not because he is black.
Ozil suffers from the same problem. If you look at his running statistics he's not actually running much less than others, but because of his body language/lethargy, he gets attacked for not working hard.
This video:
Is the perfect example of this. Toure wasn't lazy, he conserved energy for big sprints and when pressing was necessary, but because of his style it could often appear that he wasn't arsed about running about.
Ozil suffers from the same problem. If you look at his running statistics he's not actually running much less than others, but because of his body language/lethargy, he gets attacked for not working hard.
This video:
Is the perfect example of this. Toure wasn't lazy, he conserved energy for big sprints and when pressing was necessary, but because of his style it could often appear that he wasn't arsed about running about.
This isn't quite what I was getting at.
There's no denying that players like Yaya Toure and Romelu Lukaku are physical marvels and recognising that fact isn't racist. What's subconsciously prejudiced, however, is how pundits and match-going fans alike predominantly reference their physical stature and effort when their technical abilities are just as much a part of their game. That's what people are trying to change - not to ignore that players like Toure and Lukaku are strong, but to pay greater attention to their intelligence and technical ability.
Possibly yes. If he was being treated differently in Germany because of his Turkishness why would he not in the UK? Are EPL fans more tolerant and less inclined to act discriminately?
We keep going over the same shit man. It is the persistent and consistent pattern of describing Lukaku with language that features heavily in long standing stereotyping of black people by white people. @KirkDuyt has described the "lazy black" as one of the oldest stereotypes in Holland. As for "brand them racist" I'm not explaining that to you again.
Consistently in the thread accused of making excuses for his condition ie not telling the truth.
The thread concerned is about off pitch matters of diet and fitness and he is accused of being "dumb" I've explained my issues with that word.
In response to more than one poster stating that there was no casual racism whatsoever in that thread bar the gorilla reference (which was also extensively belittled and downplayed) I was attempting to show that consistently throughout that thread Lukaku was being subjected to a variety of detrimental slurs on his character that viewed, as a whole, look problematic and very much in line with long standing racial caricatures of the black man ie dumb, lazy, not to be trusted. In hindsight I should've detagged the posters names perhaps but it's still there in the thread. After pages of this and what I think is the inevitable result ie the gorilla comparison I posted my objection. Yes I think that thread is a mass of casual racism probably much of it unintended but, when unchecked, it ends up in ugliness, as evidenced, and it's not a long step from a fan on the internet making a gorilla comparison to the fan in the ground chucking bananas. Bananas start with how people think and talk
This thread is full of it too. It kicked off with people not wanting the inconvenience of the thread then got straight into Lukaku being called a dumb beast, stupid for being fat, a couple of jokes about monkeys and gorillas with footballs, and before long we had reference to the size of his dick. There's still people who think he should be pleased to have his dick sung about.
And it's 2018.
While I did say that, I tend to agree with Squishy's assessment as well.
Lukaku is not a great player technically. He can be a lethal finisher when on form, and pundits by and large describe him as such. He's not good technically though, the ball bounces off him half of the time. Toure was, but I seem to remember plenty of focus on how great he was on the ball as well as his physicality.
Also, once again people are just really lazy. They see somebody who is tall and muscular, and they immediately define them by these traits. This applies to both white and black players:
Nemanja Matic, for a couple of seasons the best DM in the league, very proficient on the ball and an extremely intelligent player. How was he mostly described?
https://www.squawka.com/en/news/ray...has-become-a-beast/203967#UtARq3fu3YKU1Kvx.97 'the midfield powerhouse, beast'.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/f...atic-says-likes-called-The-Beast-Chelsea.html Branded 'the beast' at his own club.
There's loads more in a similar vein about him. Powerhouse, beast, tank .. these are the kind of tags you see most routinely come up when there's a tall, physically gifted player. Because it's easy, another example:
Diego Costa, One of the best strikers in the league during his time here, how was he described?
http://www.90min.in/posts/6024198-he-s-a-beast-atletico-madrid-boss-diego-costa-lauds-diego-costa - Called a beast .. by his own manager.
https://www.goal.com/en-gb/news/wit...an-end-real-madrids/9wusvgqry4uz1rcsc5pf5o8zn - Beast mode, init.
Again, those kind of tags are all over the internet. When he was in the league pundits and fans often described him as a 'beast' or a 'monster or a 'tank' because he was big, strong and scary. He was also technically a better footballer than Lukaku, but you would hardly see praise for this side of his game because again, people pigeon hole players.
While I did say that, I tend to agree with Squishy's assessment as well.
I think that's allowed
This point about how most 'maestro' type players are/have been mostly white has nothing to do with skin colour. It's to do with culture. The skin colour component is merely incidental.
Case in point - England and Britain as a whole. Why is it that the place in which the game originated has produced so few of these types of players, despite having a large population and being 'white'? Answer - culture.
Of further significance is the fact that the game in, what we may term, 'black' countries and regions in the world isn't as developed in comparison to their 'white' counterparts, nor do they have the same levels of infrastructure. This is secondary to the cultural element but only serves to bolster the impression.
Lastly, cultural change is something which occurs slowly; it's almost creeping in nature, so patience is very much a virtue in this area.
Case in point - England and Britain as a whole. Why is it that the place in which the game originated has produced so few of these types of players, despite having a large population and being 'white'? Answer - culture.
Of further significance is the fact that the game in, what we may term, 'black' countries and regions in the world isn't as developed in comparison to their 'white' counterparts, nor do they have the same levels of infrastructure. This is secondary to the cultural element but only serves to bolster the impression.
Lastly, cultural change is something which occurs slowly; it's almost creeping in nature, so patience is very much a virtue in this area.
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I don't get why PL fans would single Ozil out for criticism because he's Turkish, it would be a little weird considering most premier league players are foreign. He plays for Arsenal ffs, how many English players start for them? Why would he singled out? It makes more sense in the context of his national side, and I do actually think that players who have foreign descent can often get more stick than domestic born players. There is a genuine case that I feel needs to be looked at.
I've been over this, I think a lot of the language describing Lukaku is both stereotypical, but also accurate to his performances this season. The 'lazy black' is indeed a stereotype that did/does exist, but is Lukaku being called lazy because he's black? Who knows, maybe by some people .. but you can't really prove it, because the statistics and the eye test show he is being lazy.
The gorilla reference was a disgrace, and anybody downplaying it should take a look at themselves. I don't think some of the people tagged deserved to be there, because whilst stereotypes about black people being lazy, dumb etc exist, it doesn't necessarily mean that whenever a black person is called lazy or dumb it's because of racism. That's a big leap to make, and a big accusation to throw about with pretty flimsy backing.
Again, the gorilla comparison deserved to be called out and I believe the poster in question was banned? It's a totally out of order comment to make. Either genuine racism, or total and utter stupidity is to blame. Anyone calling Lukaku a 'dumb beast' would also be unjustifiable, any comments about monkeys with footballs too .. and the less said about the song about his dick the better. That was blatantly just a lazy stereotype based off his ethnicity, and was deservedly shut down.
I think this is a good robust discussion @SquishyMcSquish about an emotive subject and one that would shortly come to some sort of conclusion However I've now been handed a warning for "arguing with another member" so that's the debate shut down for me.
take it easy.
take it easy.
Same.