The "lazy black player" stereotype

IronCroos37 said:
I view ahem lots of black players more immature, and childish like, probably due to higher levels of testosterone maybe? some lazy, some attitude problems, some like pogba all fashion, some running headless chickens, etc.
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Actually the science seems to indicate that black men have higher levels of estrogen than caucasian men, not testosterone. Using your logic (if that's the right word) that would mean that black men should have more female characteristics like emotional intelligence, maturity and collaborative skills, right?

The truth is that genetic differences between races are small compared to cultural effects. Everything you think you see as being characteristics of black men are actually much more likely to be the effects of poverty, family, language, upbringing, education, etc.

That's why people get twitchy when you say it's due them being black - the only reason to pick that out as the cause is...well, my guess is it might just be casual racism, but I'm open to hearing what you think it is?
 
Tarrou said:
Whether stereotypes are true or not is besides the point really.

People don't like to be judged by their appearance or where they come from. End of.
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are you representing all the people or just the ones who don't like how they look or where they come from ?
 
botond said:
are you representing all the people or just the ones who don't like how they look or where they come from ?
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Whats the got to do with it? I like where I am from, but don't want to be judged by it.
 
Yeah I remember that no one made fun of Peter Crouch because he was white oh wait
 
It's absolutely fair to call Lukaku lazy right now because he is. Considering he IS a giant example of a human being, he doesn't put his weight around, he doesn't move, he never really looks up for it. He got absolutely dominated by Van Dijk and he often does against most CB's despite being built like a tank. He surprised me last year because he genuinely looked like he gave a shit and I was impressed with his workrate and his physical prowess because clearly when he can be bothered, he's unstoppable.

I think it's also absolutely fair to call him big and bumbling, because again, he IS big (after all, he's admitted that he's TOO big right now) and he is bumbling. Technically he's an absolute wreck even when he's at his absolute best but calling him big and bumbling is to me the same as calling Andy Carroll big and bumbling too. Both are giant players, both seem to just bulldoze their way through with a complete lack of panache and finesse and both are only professional footballers because of their stature physically IMO. Technically neither are up to it at the top level but they get through because they're big and a handful.

I do however agree that it's completely lacking in self awareness to make comments like that regularly about black players specifically and there is a lot of unchecked casual racism that has never gone away and probably never will sadly. They definitely get stereotyped in a certain way and it means that when someone does objectively call a specific performance lazy or bumbling then it can get lost because racism is such a big problem and a massive subject that we should all be more aware of.

I also agree that the person that called him a gorilla should be banned. Cut that shit out, no warnings. Completely unacceptable in 2018.
 
botond said:
if the stereotypes are not true how do you explain that certain sports are dominated by one race or certain activities by another ?
Canada is one of the most diverse counties in the world , why are they sending only asians to the math olympics ? Are they racists?

https://cms.math.ca/Competitions/IMO/

script>

ggV3bBf
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As long as they aren’t all driving there though, right? :rolleyes:
 
Let's try a long post that might interest somebody, or it might not.

I played football in London for an amateur club running a lot of teams & with a membership or 150/200 or so. The top couple of sides would be inhabited by ex semi pros & some very useful players. It 95 per cent white though. About 10 black guys in my time there. They would usually 'keep themselves to themselves' - it was all very pleasant & rather middle class.

A black guy arrived who was more authentically 'black' & he was a bit chippy about stuff for the 3 months he was there. Nothing to write home about, he just quietly left. I had some sort of connection with him - I was feeding him a few passes for goals, I'd laugh when he said stuff that was a bit close to home for 'the chaps' (nice chaps) to deal with sometimes. this guy was a bit kind of 'edgy' for want of a crapper way to describe proceedings.

Just before he left for another team he mentioned there being ''some bad men here Boss'' or words to that effect & I told him I thought he was wrong & we laughed & I never saw him again - I didn't think he was making it up either, though. This is all in the context of nothing actually happening & people are like what they like in the cultural context of whatever I think, as was brilliantly referenced by the guy with not many posts a little earlier.

We move on a few years - I'm making a guest appearance for one of the less good teams (this is still a predominantly white middle class league) But here, on our team are 2 black guys & someone of mixed race and on theirs are 3 black guys, one of whom is insane & his 'best mate' who is of mixed-race.

I have a big black guy marking me, I am on the wing at this stage. Me & my marker are not up to much, we've returned the ball to each other for throws & free kicks & so on, it's all very peaceful. Meanwhile in the MF they are kicking lumps out of each other in some kind of pathetic black vs black race war where our team is being asked why they are playing with the white man & our mixed-race man is being told ''you're the worst, you're not even fecking black'' which is a great laugh considering the best mate situation.

We've only been playing about 25 minutes, it's pretty nasty. The overall white vs. black count is 15 vs 7, I don't reckon my marker is very interested, I decide that someone needs to do something, which hadn't happened so far because none of the white players seem bothered. So anyway, I wander into MF & spectacularly deck the ringleader - a heavy fall. nothing horrible, his mate moves towards me, I offer the carefully considered point of view that he needs to feck off as well. Don't get me wrong, this is all a joke in relative terms but while black guy was kicking black guy there was no fuss being made by any white players on the field until i went in there & started putting some stick about, if you like. Whereupon, the referee chimes up, their Captain issues an edict that we don't need this & the rest of the game plays out like every other game, just nice & harmless.

There's inter-club drinks after, everyone is very apologetic, they resolve to drum the nasty chap out of their club - I'm trying to convety to you how nice / middle class this all is.

We then go to the pub, me & the black guys from our team - I only really know 1 of them. The conversation is fascinating - they thought the nastiness between the black guys would have carried on all afternoon, they'd noticed there was no white involvement, they thought it was white league football right enough, they recognised the racism my other guy referred to - they didn't want to name any names. You just get on with it, how do you feel when we outnumber you 4 vs 1? We don't really need your help unless it's genuine, we can tell who the fakes are, there are loads. The other guy's name cropped up too, they didn't think he was wrong.

I'm nearly finished... the following week a couple of the other black guys in the club phoned me up to ask something or other, could I find out some team news, did I know the way to somewhere or other. Every black guy in the club nodded or smiled at me for the rest of the season when our paths crossed, really noticeably so, in a ''I know who you are kind of a way.'' It was strange.

Now I want to re-state what a really middle class professional situation this was, no obvious prejudice, and the 12 or so black guys didn;t seem like a coherent group as we all floated around various teams & so on & so forth.

And really finally, they were all completely different kinds of guys, playing in different positions, different levels of ability, physiologically different, size of cock I'm not sure....

I don't know, make of the fascinating story whatever you like, but remember me as the hero of it, that's the main thing.

And remember that this thread is a crock of shit with some really not very nice ideas being put about.
 
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chromepaxos said:
Actually the science seems to indicate that black men have higher levels of estrogen than caucasian men, not testosterone. Using your logic (if that's the right word) that would mean that black men should have more female characteristics like emotional intelligence, maturity and collaborative skills, right?

The truth is that genetic differences between races are small compared to cultural effects. Everything you think you see as being characteristics of black men are actually much more likely to be the effects of poverty, family, language, upbringing, education, etc.

That's why people get twitchy when you say it's due them being black - the only reason to pick that out as the cause is...well, my guess is it might just be casual racism, but I'm open to hearing what you think it is?
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As being an east european worker coming to uk, i never saw a black guy in my life, so when i came in contact with different groups, at different work places i noticed they were bit different, not in a bad way or good way just tad different, my honest opinion.
How different, well they felt more Alive, being as well more noisy, talk a lot, also gather between themselves a lot, more playfull, and they we're mid 30s or 40's. What i am saying they feel younger and act younger, suffer less depression, on an average more extroverts like pogba, and less someone like carrick for example as more reserved.
 
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montpelier said:
Let's try a long post that might interest somebody, or it might not.

I played football in London for an amateur club running a lot of teams & with a membership or 150/200 or so. The top couple of sides would be inhabited by ex semi pros & some very useful players. It 95 per cent white though. About 10 black guys in my time there. They would usually 'keep themselves to themselves' - it was all very pleasant & rather middle class.

A black guy arrived who was more authentically 'black' & he was a bit chippy about stuff for the 3 months he was there. Nothing to write home about, he just quietly left. I had some sort of connection with him - I was feeding him a few passes for goals, I'd laugh when he said stuff that was a bit close to home for 'the chaps' (nice chaps) to deal with sometimes. this guy was a bit kind of 'edgy' for want of a crapper way to describe proceedings.

Just before he left for another team he mentioned there being ''some bad men here Boss'' or words to that effect & I told him I thought he was wrong & we laughed & I never saw him again - I didn't think he was making it up either, though. This is all in the context of nothing actually happening & people are like what they like in the cultural context of whatever I think, as was brilliantly referenced by the guy with not many posts a little earlier.

We move on a few years - I'm making a guest appearance for one of the less good teams (this is still a predominantly white middle class league) But here, on our team are 2 black guys & someone of mixed race and on theirs are 3 black guys, one of whom is insane & his 'best mate' who is of mixed-race.

I have a big black guy marking me, I am on the wing at this stage. Me & my marker are not up to much, we've returned the ball to each other for throws & free kicks & so on, it's all very peaceful. Meanwhile in the MF they are kicking lumps out of each other in some kind of pathetic black vs black race war where our team is being asked why they are playing with the white man & our mixed-race man is being told ''you're the worst, you're not even fecking black'' which is a great laugh considering the best mate situation.

We've only been playing about 25 minutes, it's pretty nasty. The overall white vs. black count is 15 vs 7, I don't reckon my marker is very interested, I decide that someone needs to do something, which hadn't happened so far because none of the white players seem bothered. So anyway, I wander into MF & spectacularly deck the ringleader - a heavy fall. nothing horrible, his mate moves towards me, I offer the carefully considered point of view that he needs to feck off as well. Don't get me wrong, this is all a joke in relative terms but while black guy was kicking black guy there was no fuss being made by any white players on the field until i went in there & started putting some stick about, if you like. Whereupon, the referee chimes up, their Captain issues an edict that we don't need this & the rest of the game plays out like every other game, just nice & harmless.

There's inter-club drinks after, everyone is very apologetic, they resolve to drum the nasty chap out of their club - I'm trying to convety to you how nice / middle class this all is.

We then go to the pub, me & the black guys from our team - I only really know 1 of them. The conversation is fascinating - they thought the nastiness between the black guys would have carried on all afternoon, they'd noticed there was no white involvement, they thought it was white league football right enough, they recognised the racism my other guy referred to - they didn't want to name any names. You just get on with it, how do you feel when we outnumber you 4 vs 1? We don't really need your help unless it's genuine, we can tell who the fakes are, there are loads. The other guy's name cropped up too, they didn't think he was wrong.

I'm nearly finished... the following week a couple of the other black guys in the club phoned me up to ask something or other, could I find out some team news, did I know the way to somewhere or other. Every black guy in the club nodded or smiled at me for the rest of the season when our paths crossed, really noticeably so, in a ''I know who you are kind of a way.'' It was strange.

Now I want to re-state what a really middle class professional situation this was, no obvious prejudice, and the 12 or so black guys didn;t seem like a coherent group as we all floated around various teams & so on & so forth.

And really finally, they were all completely different kinds of guys, playing in different positions, different levels of ability, physiologically different, size of cock I'm not sure....

I don't know, make of the fascinating story whatever you like, but remember me as the hero of it, that's the main thing.

And remember that this thread is a crock of shit with some really not very nice ideas being put about.
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I really tried to understand this post, but I'm afraid I have absolutely no idea what you're on about.
 
It's just a shit story, badly told then, probably.

I suspected this would happen, :D.

At least they've got massive cocks though, eh?
 
Get your cocks out & have a compare?

Or maybe it's all a bit more subtle & rather more complicated than talking about it like that.
 
I don't even know where this comes from? I've heard different stereotypes about black athletes. Some good, some bad. But I have never heard of black athletes being "lazy". Sure, I've heard (and said myself) that someone like Pogba seems lazy, but that isn't a stereotype and has absolutely nothing to do with the colour of his skin. There is unfortunately a lot of racism still alive today, but I don't believe this is one of the areas where it exists. Instead of trying to look for something that isn't there, how about we clean up the real areas and real problems that do still unfortunately exist in our society...
 
SadlerMUFC said:
I don't even know where this comes from? I've heard different stereotypes about black athletes. Some good, some bad. But I have never heard of black athletes being "lazy". Sure, I've heard (and said myself) that someone like Pogba seems lazy, but that isn't a stereotype and has absolutely nothing to do with the colour of his skin. There is unfortunately a lot of racism still alive today, but I don't believe this is one of the areas where it exists. Instead of trying to look for something that isn't there, how about we clean up the real areas and real problems that do still unfortunately exist in our society...
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Not athletes in particular, blacks as a whole have been stereotyped as lazy. Theres a thing called "Colored People time". In a nut shell, the stereotype is that black people are often too laid back and have no work ethic. Thus they are thought of as lazy and unreliable. And so are said to be always late because they dont care. Example: Wheres Jill at? Oh you know her, always on CP time that one. It is sometimes also called "african time".
 
Reddy Rederson said:
Not athletes in particular, blacks as a whole have been stereotyped as lazy. Theres a thing called "Colored People time". In a nut shell, the stereotype is that black people are often too laid back and have no work ethic. Thus they are thought of as lazy and unreliable. And so are said to be always late because they dont care. Example: Wheres Jill at? Oh you know her, always on CP time that one. It is sometimes also called "african time".
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I'm well aware of the stereotype you're talking about. I have a couple of teammates who are Jamaican, and one is always showing up for our game just as it's about to start and the other guy always says that "he's on Island time". But that's not what this thread is talking about. It's talking about the stereotype of black people being lazy on the field and I have never heard anyone say that before. Like I said, I have heard people say that Pogba is lazy, but that has nothing to do with the colour of his skin and has absolutely no relation to a racial stereotype...
 
SadlerMUFC said:
I'm well aware of the stereotype you're talking about. I have a couple of teammates who are Jamaican, and one is always showing up for our game just as it's about to start and the other guy always says that "he's on Island time". But that's not what this thread is talking about. It's talking about the stereotype of black people being lazy on the field and I have never heard anyone say that before. Like I said, I have heard people say that Pogba is lazy, but that has nothing to do with the colour of his skin and has absolutely no relation to a racial stereotype...
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Well, Im assuming thats the link. Maybe the OP can shed light on his thinking and give us some examples. Funny thing though, I googled "Lazy black player stereotype" and this thread is the top result :lol:. And in fact the only result on this topic.
 
Slave masters and overseers often described slaves as "slow," "lazy," "wants pushing," "an eye servant," and "trifling."1 The master and the slave operated with different motives: the master desired to obtain from the slave the greatest labor, by any means; the slave desired to do the least labor while avoiding punishment. The slave registered his protest against slavery by running away, and, when that was not possible, by slowing work, doing shoddy work, destroying work tools, and faking illness. Slave masters attributed the slaves' poor work performance to shiftlessness, stupidity, desire for freedom, and genetic deficiencies.
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apparently - Stampp, K. M. (1956). The peculiar institution: Slavery in the ante-bellum South. New York, NY: Random House.
 
and yes, before the obvious comes back, we all use stereotypical language all of the time without there being malicious intent involved

but it's the historical persistence of the stereotype, innit?

<presumes argument against has been stuck up>

do we remember with clarity of comtext, everything that we have heard, watched or read, or do you think it seeps into the subconcious?

which is an obvious yes for me

then you can debate how much it matters, I don't know the answer to that
 
I must admit I have never heard of the black people 'lazy' stereotype at all. Strange observation that. Black and african origin footballers tend to generally be the athletic and/or the work horse kind more than the small, technical, 'football-intelligent' kind as a general rule of thumb ala Scholes or Iniesta so pointing it out is not necessarily racism when the general body of evidence vindicates that observation.
 
rollingstoned1 said:
I must admit I have never heard of the black people 'lazy' stereotype at all. Strange observation that. Black and african origin footballers tend to generally be the athletic and/or the work horse kind more than the small, technical, 'football-intelligent' kind as a general rule of thumb ala Scholes or Iniesta so pointing it out is not necessarily racism when the general body of evidence vindicates that observation.
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I'm surprised you've never heard of it

Most well known incident in recent times was when Ron Atkinson was caught on air saying Desailly is a fecking lazy thick n****r

Now use of the n word is of course deemed highly offensive, but actually, racism is about context and prejudice rather than merely using offensive language and it's the perpetuating of stereotypes (black people being lazy) which is racist whereas use of the n word is technically, not necessarily racist in itself, albeit offensive and these days, considered inappropriate in pretty much any context

The problem in my opinion is that people now get so caught up in what words can or can't be used, it detracts from preventing actual racism, which is about actions & thoughts rather than vocabulary. For instance at a very basic level, not hiring someone because they are black is racist, but that doesn't necessarily involve any offensive language. There's nothing racist in itself about a banana. But throwing one at a black player is

I'm amazed how many people are so ignorant of where so much of this stems from. I realise many on here will know this, but I can only assume from some posts both here and on other forums/media, many are not aware of basic but vitally important history. Less than 200 years ago, millions of black people were slaves in America. They were quite literally kidnapped from Africa and shipped over to America to be sold as slaves. Their families were often split up and several generations of slaves later, many didn't know anything about their ancestry, even what country they originally came from. They were a commodity. To help make it more 'palatable', stereotypes were presented & reinforced that suggested black people were sub-human, lesser in ever respect to their white masters. One of many stereotypes was that black people are lazy, to help justify the beatings & whippings. If they were seen as equal to white people, slavery would have been much harder for society as a whole to accept. So they were treated quite literally, as animals more than humans. It is those perpetuated stereotypes that are so offensive. How can so many people be so ignorant to this fact ?
 
Following on from my previous post, if Lukaku is lazy, it is not necessarily racist to point it out. But those who highlight specific, isolated examples are often, whether deliberately or through ignorance, missing the bigger picture. A better example IMO is Sterling - some people take individual stories about him and concentrate on the facts behind same, without looking at the bigger picture which is the cumulative effect of the huge number of negative, unjustified stories about him & other black players which have racial bias.

So of course it's not ideal if people have to be careful about calling Lukaku lazy if perhaps, they are simply stating the truth and I can see why some then say it's PC gone mad. But people should be more aware of the bigger picture and whilst society today should not be held accountable for the slavery of 200 years ago, they should at least be aware of the ongoing social ramifications.
 
stereotypes will always exist, we can't all be the same. Just like high school stereotypes nerds/athletes/cool guys/mean girls/freaks/etc..

Also half of people will always be mean/agressive/power hungry either with religion/race/politics/anything.
 
Not lazy but another stereotype. How can anyone way him and think these are his main strengths
 
Adisa said:
Not lazy but another stereotype. How can anyone way him and think these are his main strengths
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In this case I don’t think there’s a problem with what he said, to be honest. He said it after the game yesterday, talking about the power in Pogba’s jump for his headed goal. I really don’t think there’s is anything wrong with that.
 
If it was in the context of the headed goal, I would understand somewhat.
 
Classical Mechanic said:
To reduce Pogba to his physical attributes is weird for such a technically gifted and slillful player. Where is the article from?
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It’s a DM article based on what Redknapp was saying on Sky yesterday.

What annoyed me about the analysis on there was the total lack of focus on his passing. MOTD covered it.
 
RedCurry said:
If it was in the context of the headed goal, I would understand somewhat.
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It was, it was said specifically regarding his headed goal and it was compared to Lebron going to the rim. As soon as they said it I expected it to crop up online at some point.
 
Snowle Gunnar Solskjær said:
It was, it was said specifically regarding his headed goal and it was compared to Lebron going to the rim. As soon as they said it I expected it to crop up online at some point.
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Yeah, I don't see a problem with that. I would guess Pogba also enjoys that comparison.
 
If you check the Matchday Thread, my instant reaction to Pogba's leap was to compare it to the air that Jordan got on his dunks. Different basketballer, same idea.

Dante said:
Feck me, Pogba got more air than Jordan!
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I'm pretty sure I'd have said the same thing about some of Ronaldo's headers for United.

I don't think this particular article is stereotyping in any way. It's a very natural parallel. Basketballers are the most obvious comparison to draw when you see somebody leap extremely high.
 
The post match discussion barely talked about his skill or the creativity of his passing range. Maybe I've failed to take the context of this specific case into account but the other part of his game doesn't get enough of a mention imo.
 
RedCurry said:
If it was in the context of the headed goal, I would understand somewhat.
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The headed goal had nothing to do with pace and power though. It was clever movement and all about the timing of the run into the box.
 
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