I view ahem lots of black players more immature, and childish like, probably due to higher levels of testosterone maybe? some lazy, some attitude problems, some like pogba all fashion, some running headless chickens, etc.
The "lazy black player" stereotype
- Thread starter Barca84
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In a way these threads are great.
I like to think I'm not particularly highly emotive or angry. I try to discuss with respect and facts regardless of the matter at hand and also regardless of how the other person may reply (or ignore completely, as has happened in this thread). I have literally never 'ignored' anyone or removed anyone and relish talking to people with completely opposing views to mine, even if that person may well be a racist, homophobe, sexist etc.
But I am increasingly finding that some people don't want to engage all that much in the first place. So, these threads are great for bringing certain posters and their true views to light so that they can be more easily skirted in the future...
I like to think I'm not particularly highly emotive or angry. I try to discuss with respect and facts regardless of the matter at hand and also regardless of how the other person may reply (or ignore completely, as has happened in this thread). I have literally never 'ignored' anyone or removed anyone and relish talking to people with completely opposing views to mine, even if that person may well be a racist, homophobe, sexist etc.
But I am increasingly finding that some people don't want to engage all that much in the first place. So, these threads are great for bringing certain posters and their true views to light so that they can be more easily skirted in the future...
they have as well yes, but white players have a bigger data-base as well. well i don\t know, maybe i am just wrong.Sigh...
I guess white players don't have those issues
People pointing out racism everywhere are actually racist too.
Ah the old "white players have small cocks but big databases" myth. Classic.
am i racist if I belive that most blacks have bigger di..s ? or is it just a fact?
Please elaborate, and I think its been pointed out that anyone can be guilty of casual racism
No it's not a fact it's a racial stereotype. Believing it makes you wrong but not necessarily a racist.
Interesting username there dude.
I am always a bit surprised just how angrily some people take the accusation of being called racist or even their ability to say certain things because it may be perceived as racist. Seems almost out of proportion and sometimes seems more than the shock and anger at the actual racism.
As for casual racism, I imagine there's no one universal definition but I'll give an example that happened to my son at his secondary school while back in the UK.
His school was almost exclusively white British (as we were in the time living in Essex) and he was one of maybe 3-4 black kids in his year. There were 2 Arabs, 2 Asians and 3 Jews. He had a group of friends who, it turned out, were playing card games at school, sometimes 'gambling' with fake tokens.
Anyway, long story short, the white kids would sometimes launch the following comments at another one of the black kids:
'X, you coon, hurry up and play'
'X, you're so poor, no wonder you don't want to play anything' ( he was not poor)
Amongst others
To one of the Jewish kids
'Y, stop being such a Jew and actually bet something. Stop holding onto that money'
Etc etc.
Now, some may view this as just pure racism. But these kids ultimately were friends. I don't think they hated black people or jews, I don't think they meant them any ill. They just think its funny to drop in racial slurs/ stereotypes while playing cards. Because its funny. Apparently. None of these kids had the courage to say anything until my son did, after which they eventually stopped. Yet it made them very uncomfortable to be on the end of this behaviour.
Who told you its a fact?
This was a pretty common saying at my school, and even up to college level. Plenty of my friends would say it.
Heck, even at University there were players on my football team etc who would say 'Stop being so fecking Jewish' if someone wouldn't get a round in.
I agree with you, there's no actual ill will towards Jews there, it was just something funny to say. Little thought or malice behind it.
Constantly pointing out racism means that those racist thoughts are in their heads and they want to make themselves feel better by blaming others.
It's just multiplying the hate. Let racist people live in their own misery. They are not even worth lecturing.
Or they are the victims and its not ok to let victims live in their own misery.
Also if its happening in no way is ok to just let it go because well we won't want to keep constantly bringing it up.
He actually has a pretty valid point. If I say someone is dumb, lazy, smart, fast or slow, and the immediate thought goes to the skin color of the person I am describing, that is a huge problem. This is especially problematic when there was zero thought of skin color when choosing the adjective.
That is not what happened though and is a completely separate thing all together.
The last bolded part is what has been discussed in the thread for many pages.
Oh my goodness
We are not showering ourselves in glory in this discussion.
My apologies then for not reading every post in this thread, which has turned completely away from being football related.
I agree 100% that racists comments should be called out for what they are. One of the examples used in this thread has been called out properly.
What I don't agree with is a simple descriptor of a football player being turned into racism, or casual racism. While I may not agree with what has transpired, I do understand this is the world we live in today and people will construe negative adjectives many different ways. For me we are walking a fine line where I don't think we are too far away from even describing positive adjectives as being racist or casually racist.
Its a thread about casual racism, its likely to sway away from just being about football.
You don't have to agree. Also others don't have to agree with you. Many "simple" descriptors or many types of people are derived from racial stereotypes both conscious and unconscious.
Now we already do have "positive" adjectives which are described as casually racist like when black players are praised mainly for their athletic ability.
At the end of the day these things are derived from somewhere and they start from somewhere and in most cases today are not done in malice.
At the end of the day overt racism isn't the only type of racism that exists. I do agree though there is a fine line, but being able to discuss and have discourse isn't a bad thing but a progressive one in my opinion.
Casual racism to me would be a pejorative comment/belief based on race. For example, in the context of this thread, having a belief that Lukaku is lazy because he is black. I’m therefore struggling to understand how “anyone” could be guilty of that type of racism, as it requires some negative belief based on race. Having read this thread, I don’t recall seeing the initial example. Would you mind explaining?
This simply isn't true. The words lazy, slow, fast, intelligent, unintelligent, athletic, unathletic...did not derive from racial stereotypes, they are simply words. Because some of them have been incorrectly linked to certain races over time has nothing to do with how they were derived.
It is only when they are combined with a specific racial component can they even begin to be thought of as racist. Smart Asian, white trash, lazy black guy are examples of needless addition of a racial component. I'll concede your point if one of these terms is used, but to draw a line from "Lukaku is lazy" or "Kagawa is such a smart player" to any sort of racism, casual, consciously, or unconsciously is you adding race into the equation - not the person who used to phrase.
We’re not exactly disagreeing.
What I am saying is that “blacks are lazy” is a racial stereotype which has been around for a long time. At times now peoole attach the label without thinking.
Now I never said saying Lukaku is lazy is racist btw. Nor have I said anyone who said it is racist.
What I have said in this thread is that criritsm of black players has fallen into the following 3 categories:
Lazy
Has attitude problems
Lacks intelligence
More often than their white counterparts. That opens a debate about why.
Now calling Lukaku dumb which was also in the OP btw is another one.
I get it and honestly can't be arsed to read every post in this thread. However, I've read quite a few of them and nowhere did I see one that attached the word "black" and "lazy". That was an interpretation by other posters who wanted to make something out of nothing. If I missed these posts, I apologize.
I realize that we aren't in total disagreement, but I take a bit of an issue with "criticism of black players has fallen into the following 3 categories."
I think Manchester United players and players in general get described solely based on their on field performance, both positively and negatively. Go take a gander at the Phil Jones thread or the Kante thread and you can see that adjectives are used based on their playing attributes (or lack there of), not their race.
I’ve never seen a stylish, lazy, headless chicken running around with an attitude problem, but I can’t imagine it looks anything like a black dude in shorts and a t shirt. Maybe I’m reading this wrong, but your post is just a drawn out way of saying “it’s cos he’s black”. Which is pretty much racist as feck. But please, if I’m mistaken, correct my inference.
To be fair it is a label that White Anglo-Saxon Protestants have applied to everyone outside of their demographic for some time. Spanish - lazy, Italian - lazy, black - lazy, Mexican - lazy, etc., etc. Only the Chinese and Japanese escape that categorization, but we get them elsewhere.
Similar stereotypes are used to label minorities all over the planet and usually those who use it claim that black people/Roma/Eastern Europeans/migrants from the Middle East etc. live off the welfare and enjoy milking the taxpayer's money instead of trying to get a decent job. There's no connection between that disgusting phrase and calling an overweight player who happens to have black skin lazy.
if the stereotypes are not true how do you explain that certain sports are dominated by one race or certain activities by another ?
Canada is one of the most diverse counties in the world , why are they sending only asians to the math olympics ? Are they racists?
https://cms.math.ca/Competitions/IMO/
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Canada is one of the most diverse counties in the world , why are they sending only asians to the math olympics ? Are they racists?
https://cms.math.ca/Competitions/IMO/
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if the stereotypes are not true how do you explain that certain sports are dominated by one race or certain activities by another ?
Canada is one of the most diverse counties in the world , why are they sending only asians to the math olympics ? Are they racists?
https://cms.math.ca/Competitions/IMO/
Certain cultures value learning certain skill sets over others.
If all it took was money and athletes then the Americans would already be a football powerhouse.
If some people are taught from birth that they need to study maths... and others are taught to play football then one group will do better than the other
however, if the situation was reversed then you'd see the opposite culture dominating over the other.
People think of Asians as more incompetent than whites or blacks at athletics... yet China, Japan, and Korea placed third, sixth, and eighth at the Rio Olympics.
This is because in America, American football and basketball are the most popular sports so there is more value and social capital mastering that over something like figure skating.
I'm sure it's similar in Europe where Asians have been disparagingly referred to as shirt sellers.
Fortunately players like Son Heung-min are slowly changing this image.
I think it's fair to say that in sports where sheer size is important like American football or basketball... certain races might have an advantage because of height or weight advantages... but in most sports like football... the differences will be mostly cultural rather than race.
If you are given a football at two years old... you will be better than an American who doesn't play until eight or ten years old... who never watches it on television with their fathers.
You will also be better than some impoverished third world nation where they don't have a proper ball, or goal, or grass for their pitch.
There are a lot of reasons why there are differences... but most certainly in the case of football where size isn't the most important factor it is because of cultural differences and preferences rather than race.
do you think its because they know they have a certain advantage in the certain skill set ? a better chance to succeed ?
Welcome to ignore, you racist clod.
It stems from the idea of the ‘Protestant work ethic’.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_work_ethic
I think in the case of a sport like basketball where every athlete is in a outlier category for height sure.
I think for football where we see a player of Messi, Maradona, or Pele's small stature dominating the game... it becomes more of a cultural thing.
If whites and blacks studied maths like Asians did they'd be just as good at it... but it would need to be valued in their culture as opposed to ridiculed.
I'm not saying race has absolutely nothing to do with anything... but again since we are discussing football... I bring the example of America which has an Anglo Saxon cultural root at its core with access to all different races... with a huge population base and financial resources... yet continually fails at the international level.
Also you have to consider which groups are more prone to having players from impoverished or single parent homes, where a work ethic is less likely to be instilled by an authority figure.
Again, I think it's primarily a cultural issue... more than a race issue.
Maybe he’s seen all the d’s in the world and conducted his own study then came up with an average
what do you think if a culture is focusing on a certain skill set over many generations, do they get an advantage over certain cultures who are focusing on another skill sets ?
There's some quality stuff on here alright. And I've only really seen pages 1 & 13.
I particularly 'liked' the idea that if one spots something as being racist it's often because of one's own closet-racist tendencies.
That's magbificent really, innit? You can't actually argue with that level of total irredeemable stupidity.
There was a nutter on my bus the other day - everyone who gets on a bus is a bit loopy if you ask me.
I told someone off for gobbing on the floor in Sainsbury last week. Because I do it all the time, meself.
I saw someone wanking in public earlier today, I'm glad I didn't say anything to them.
I particularly 'liked' the idea that if one spots something as being racist it's often because of one's own closet-racist tendencies.
That's magbificent really, innit? You can't actually argue with that level of total irredeemable stupidity.
There was a nutter on my bus the other day - everyone who gets on a bus is a bit loopy if you ask me.
I told someone off for gobbing on the floor in Sainsbury last week. Because I do it all the time, meself.
I saw someone wanking in public earlier today, I'm glad I didn't say anything to them.
I appreciate your effort and i didn't respond so far because i just realisized that my english is not good enough to go that deep into an discussion that sensitive and decided just to stay out of it. I don't want to offend anyone, and i just want to say that i am not a racist by any means, but probably/seemingly came along different with my first posting. I know that this topic is really sensitive, but i think it shouldn't be that sensitive anymore in 2018 and that you should be able to talk about some things without beeing labelled as a racist right away while the points i was trying to make were completely ignored by most users and no discussion was possible at all from that point.
Every human beeing is worth the same in my opinion, even if there are differences between some races (for example white/black). But i don't see a problem about it at all. I don't care if someone is black, white, asian or whatever. I don't care if a politician is a man or woman etc. Why would i? I don't even get it. I was just talking about my personal impression regarding football players. And while i get the obvious point of different education in different countries, we still have and always had a lot of black european world class players (for example from France and Holland). The 2nd point i was trying to make was completely ignored as well, but i can give you an example. Years ago when i was new in this forum, it was not rare that the infamous N-word (regarding germans) was used against me or it was also often used when german teams, Bayern mostly, were playing (haven't experienced it recently at all). No one cared. No one was thinking about it as racism. A lot of users were even laughing about it. But if someone would use the N-word regarding black players or users the outcry would be immense (rightly so!). If a german would be beaten up in Germany and offended as a "damn german" no one would care, if the opposite would happen ("damn turk" or "damn african"), it would be a huge scandal. And i don't get it either. It seems to me, that racism against westerners in general is totally accepted/overlooked while for others it isn't. And this is something i don't want to accept, because we all are meant to live in a world where everyone should be treated the same way.
But how is Zidane not white?
The advantage the Europeans and the South Americans have over the Americans and the Asians is that they live and breathe football from birth.
It has more value to their cultures than any other sport... doing well at football means economic opportunity, approval from family, and approval from women.
American women don't care if some guy like Messi is good at football. They'd just see some average looking short guy wandering through the streets.
Until a football player gets the respect and admiration of an American football player, basketball player or hip hop star... no American child will spend all his free hours with a ball at his feet dreaming of fame in fortune.
So yes, people who have generations supporting a particular sport or skill... have an enormous advantage over those who don't.
if the stereotypes are not true how do you explain that certain sports are dominated by one race or certain activities by another ?
Canada is one of the most diverse counties in the world , why are they sending only asians to the math olympics ? Are they racists?
https://cms.math.ca/Competitions/IMO/
Whether stereotypes are true or not is besides the point really.
People don't like to be judged by their appearance or where they come from. End of.