I don't want to sound ignorant and I know racism exists but wasn't there a thread last year about the "physical/athletic and full of stamina" black players when describing the likes of Kante or Pogba? 
The "lazy black player" stereotype
- Thread starter Barca84
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Good posts, man. To be honest, I learn a lot from threads on the Caf about this issue. Thanks for posters like you who are willing to spend time engaging in a professional way.
I have never heard anyone say that black players are lazy, as in all black players are lazy.
is it really a widely used insult? or widely held prejudice?
if it is, its fecking mental
is it really a widely used insult? or widely held prejudice?
if it is, its fecking mental
Apologies for the delay redlamb. Re the bolded. An important point missed here in the expected and predictable melee is that I called the thread in question as being full of casual racism. This was denied vehemently by a majority of posters, again not unexpectedly, whilst simultaneously showing a lack of understanding of the nature of casual racism as a form of racism itself. At no point have I called anyone a racist. They may be, they may not, I don't know this but what I have highlighted is, in my opinion, a high level of casual racism in that thread and also in matchday threads and in Lukaku's player performance thread. I've pointed out upthread how casual racism can manifest itself and how it can often be unintended or not meant as opposed to more overt racism. I also stated that we can all be guilty of it. I also stated early on that we can all be theoretically described as lazy irrespective of colour. This goes without saying.
There has been a "lazy black player" stereotype in football and as an older fan remember it well from the 70s onwards hence my reference to how far we have moved on since then. One of our former managers has been ostracised from the game for these very views. Is it as prevalent now? That was the question raised for me by the unending accusations of laziness directed at one player in particular. He may be lazy, he may not, but it is the insistent and consistent levelling of this particular accusation that resonated. It partly resonates because it comes in partnership with several other repeated accusations. One is that Lukaku is dumb, another is that he is fat, and another in that particular thread is that he is lying and untrustworthy. The repeated use of the "dumb" word is problematic for me also as for decades black people have been described as being dumb with the n-word attached as a chaser. Ir seems to me we've largely outlawed the n-word but a lot of the sentiment remains. Throughout that thread it's suggested that Lukaku's supposed dumbness has played it's part in him getting fat. His laziness also is implied as being a factor. So he's dumb, and he's lazy, he's fat and then according to multiple posters he's making excuses ie lying. In summary a thread on a Manchester United player develops over pages of what I interpret as casual racism to paint a picture that is, almost to a tee, a present day example of the Coon Caricature posted by @villain upthread (a good read) A black man employed for his physical prowess consistently described as dumb, fat, lazy, and untrustworthy because he is not performing to expectation.
So I should perhaps have titled the thread "Black player stereotypes" because the casual racism is much wider than mass and consistent accusations of laziness and there's the mob/pack dynamic to it. And the reason I spoke out was because, as this casual racism proceeded unchallenged, the inevitable happened. We got the black man is a gorilla post. Possibly still casual but so outrageous in 2018 that it would be difficult to not classify that as overt and intended and that's the end product of unchallenged, repeated casual racism.
I thought the talksport host was spot on. I'd not seen/heard that but he'd echo my views re the importance of the words we use, why we are using them and in what context. .
I find casual racism is rife on this board. It runs like a vein through the recent Raheem Sterling thread and is never far away from any thread, football or non football related, that touches on BAME players, people and culture. This thread is another example. It's a reflection of what I sense is the prevailing demographic on this board and the fury you get when you poke your head over the parapet and point out the issue isn't enough of a reason to keep silent and let it go. A baying mob decrying that this is an "attack on free speech" by an "extreme left winger", "deflecting from real racism", "stirring" etc etc. It's probably just a small taste of what it's like to be black in a white man's world but then a lot of white folk have always got very upset when they get told how they should speak about black people.
We still have bananas being thrown at black players.
People denied it because they have a different opinion to you, not because they are ignorant or have an inferior understanding of a topic to you. You accused people of 'casual racism' based on incredibly flimsy evidence, and are now accusing people of ignorance and 'showing a lack of understanding' because they take a different position on what should actually be considered racism. I'm not surprised there was a melee, it's not very nice to be accused of being casually racist because you called a player lazy or overweight, the same way people accuse Fellaini of being a donkey or Phil Jones of being the thickest player to grace the game. You're placing insidious intent on harmless comments reflecting frustrating at a player who is performing poorly, and you're then surprised when they react badly to that? Your opinion is that it qualifies as casual racism. Other people's opinion is that it qualifies as the same kind of abuse that other members of the team receive.
Of course stereotypes exist, and I don't think many on this forum would argue that racism has been taken out of the game or deny the existence of stereotypes. There is still certainly a tendency to pigeon hole black players and you see plenty of lazy generalisations across the internet, but that doesn't mean that Lukaku has been the target of casual racism on this board. Your argument is what, because in the past black players have been stereotyped as lazy & lacking in intelligence, people who are now suggesting Lukaku is lazy or lacks intelligence are automatically doing so because of the colour of his skin? What happened to approaching situations on a case by case basis, instead of horrendous group think identity politics in which context becomes nothing more than a hazy blur?
Lukaku has appeared lazy this season. His running statistics back this up, and he has a languid style of play which can frustrate the fans and make it appear as if he is not even putting a minimal amount of effort. If a player appears to barely be breaking in to a sprint, it follows that people will accuse him of being lazy regardless of his skin colour. People have already mentioned this, but Ozil and Ibrahimovic are two white players with a similar 'casual' style of play, both of which have been accused of laziness throughout their careers. If it was for example Welbeck being accused of laziness, then you would be absolutely justified in calling it out as a lazy racial stereotype, but if someone doesn't bother to run they are going to be branded lazy.
Footballers have been insulted for their intelligence when they play poorly for as long as I can remember. Anybody who has been to a game/seen a match day thread will know that when a striker misses an easy chance, the cries of 'fecking stupid cnut!' are never far behind. Again, just because a stereotype exists surrounding the intelligence of black players, it doesn't immediately follow that anybody questioning a black player for their intelligence is being racist. I never saw Drogba being accused of stupidity, I don't see it aimed at Kante, and one of the players considered the most intelligent in my own clubs recent history (Ledley King) was black. Lukaku is being called stupid because he appears to have forgotten how to make intelligent runs, and seems to have forgotten the basic skill of holding up a football. I think he gets called dumb because he's a large, powerfully built guy who right now looks extremely clumsy with the ball, which makes him look a bit stupid. The big, thick, technically limited target man is a stereotype in football and one which is disconnected from race. I don't see any evidence he's being called stupid because he's black, it seems like lazy assumptions to me. Maybe some of the people you quoted genuinely did call him or lazy or stupid because he's black, but to quote them all and throw about the 'casual racism' tag based on nothing but abuse you see aimed at most footballers is totally out of order.
He gets called fat because he came out and admitted he's a bit fat at the moment, I mean what more evidence do you need? The player himself came out and admitted the fact that putting on weight has impacted his game, and you don't think the fans are going to jump on this when the ball bounces clumsily off him for the umpteenth time in a match? I mean for christ sake, you can see he's overweight, he admits to being overweight, so the fans are going to make comments based on his weight. There's absolutely nothing to support the idea that he's being called fat because he's black. Does anyone remember how much shit Higuain got for arriving at Juventus looking like he had just consumed the North's entire supply of greggs sausage rolls? Athletes are constantly being judged on this shit, because it's their job to be in the right shape, regardless of their ethnicity.
The gorilla comment was totally ignorant, and rightly was called out. That was a genuine example of racism, as is somebody throwing bananas on the pitch or people screaming racist abuse at Sterling during the Chelsea game. Of course not all racism is so obvious, but you can't just throw everybody in the same boat because they happened to call Lukaku lazy, or fat, or stupid .. and then expect them not to be slightly pissed off that you did that without any actual evidence that it was racially motivated. I find casual accusations of racism rife on this board, I find identity politics rife on this board, and I find it utterly ludicrous how you're positioning yourself as a victim after lazily throwing out accusations of racism. You didn't 'stick your head over the parapet', you made a gross generalisation and people questioned it. What else did you expect?
I've only read the first page of this, .
Can we not bring some marginal awareness to the table when we're getting stuck in lads, seriously?
.Can we not bring some marginal awareness to the table when we're getting stuck in lads, seriously?
The fact that this thread can go 13 pages is ridiculous. OP essentially starts with click bait shite and then the bottom falls out.
There is a thread specifically for this issue that is still way too abundant worldwide. Why can't we stick to real examples and issues that plague us. There are good examples in that thread and it opens a lot of eyes as to what role we all can play in combating this issue.
The fact that we aren't able to label a footballer as "lazy" or "braindead", without being accused of racism or casual racism, is shocking. What the feck is casual racism anyway? Racism is racism, whether out in the open, behind closed door or "casually."
There is a thread specifically for this issue that is still way too abundant worldwide. Why can't we stick to real examples and issues that plague us. There are good examples in that thread and it opens a lot of eyes as to what role we all can play in combating this issue.
The fact that we aren't able to label a footballer as "lazy" or "braindead", without being accused of racism or casual racism, is shocking. What the feck is casual racism anyway? Racism is racism, whether out in the open, behind closed door or "casually."
Phil Jones constantly gets called unintelligent, David Beckham was labelled as thick, Berbatov was lazy.
If a black person said this about these three players would he be considered racist?
People are always looking for something to be offended about.
If a black person said this about these three players would he be considered racist?
People are always looking for something to be offended about.
Jesus. Pogba is a lazy fecker for us when he wants to be, black white or fecking purple skin its still true.
How dare you come on here, posting something sensible like that
No doubt that negative stereotypes exist in football, but a casual stroll through the thread highlights a lot of tone deaf folks and lot of extra sensitive about everything folks. Also, Pogba can be a bit lazy. fight me
Well even if so, what's the problem? Black players are far more talented if it comes to physicallity, i think no one can deny that. They are usually faster, bigger and stronger. And it seems that white players are usually more intelligent. So what? In both cases there are of course exceptions, but have you seen many black players play like Iniesta, Xavi, Modric, Zidane, Gerrard, Lampard, Ballack, Schweinsteiger, Kroos, etc.? I can't even name one black 'maestro' tbh. Maybe we could count Ronaldinho into this as the exception though.
Why is it racism if we say white players are more intelligent than black players, but it isn't racism if we say black players are physically more gifted (not only in sports btw...) than white players? It reminds me of german schools, when turkish kids say to german kids "you damn german!" and the german kid responds "you damn turk!", only the german kid is getting accused of racism. And i think that's bs.
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: popcorngif :
Wowzer.
Where's that Homer backing up into a hedge .gif again?
Where's that Homer backing up into a hedge .gif again?
Awfully tempting to take a warning on the chin to post a gif!
Thought I’d drop into this thread to agree with its premise having merit to be greeted by that humdinger of a post a little above. Lovely...
I want to ignore what's going to come, but I...just...can't...look...away...
For feck's sake.
This .. this is not going to go well.
Don't even know where to start....
I guess you guys don't get my point. I expected that. Btw. i am not saying that black players (not people, i am strictly talking about football players) are not intelligent in any way, but i do believe that white players have usually more talent in that department, while black players have other talents. Or why is it that the great black players are mostly known for their superior physicality and skills and white players often for their "playing intelligence" such as the players i mentioned above.
Is that racism for you guys? Probably i am just stupid, but for me it's not. This topic is probably just too sensitive it seems.
Is that racism for you guys? Probably i am just stupid, but for me it's not. This topic is probably just too sensitive it seems.
And we are back in the 70s...
Out of interest, where does this end for you, in terms of the spectrum of intelligence?
So if white players are usually more intelligent in football, does that mean that footballing intelligence is an innate trait? Like your lung capacity, speed, strength etc? If so, why do you think white players have it and others don't?
And where does this end, as I asked above? Would you say white people are more intelligent in general than black people? I guess, going by your example, most countries which have majority white populations have some kind of democracy and good living standards for their citizens while most countries with majority black populations...do not. And is there a difference between North Europeans and South? Why have the USA/Australia/ NZ come out how they have while Colombia, Bolivia and Venezuela have come out the way they have? So is there an innate level of difference in your opinion between the intelligence of white and black people? North and South European?
And if you don't think the above, why and how is it different for football?
To be honest i don't want to go that deep. I am not here to talk about politics, just about football. Shouldn't have said anything in this thread i guess.
Maybe even intelligence is the wrong wording in this case. Maybe it's about vision or whatever. I don't know the physical reason, or if there even is a reason but my point is: Why is it, that the great 'maestros' in this game, known for their intelligence/vision/whatever on the pitch, are mostly white players? I mean players such as Iniesta, Xavi, Zidane, Modric, Kroos, etc. Except of maybe Ronaldinho, there comes no player into my mind which is comparable to them in that topic. At least not since i watch football. I haven't seen the likes of Pele etc.
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Wow! Just wow! This place may as well be renamed StormfrontCafe or something now.
despite the fact this lads post is going to be picked apart, somewhere in there is a fair point. If you were to devise a list of quick minded, forward thinking, creative style “maestro” (as he put it) type players then I would have to say the vast majority of them in my lifetime would be white. Is there a correlation of racial intelligence in general to football? I would say no. As I believe Asians are considered to have the highest IQ in general more so than whites or blacks and yet Asian football is a long way behind European football.
To be honest i don't want to go that deep. I am not here to talk about politics, just about football. Shouldn't have said anything in this thread i guess.
Maybe even intelligence is the wrong wording in this case. Maybe it's about vision or whatever. I don't know the physical reason, or if there even is a reason but my point is: Why is it, that the great 'maestros' in this game, known for their intelligence/vision/whatever on the pitch, are mostly white players? I mean players such as Iniesta, Xavi, Zidane, Modric, Kroos, etc. Except of maybe Ronaldinho, there comes no player into my mind which is comparable to them in that topic. At least not since i watch football. I haven't seen the likes of Pele etc.
It seems to me that all the white players you mentioned aren’t blessed with much pace or physical prowess so maybe had no choice but to learn the other side of the game. If you’ve got that built into your skill set already, maybe it means you tend to focus on that, who knows? I’m just thinking out loud really.
To be honest i don't want to go that deep. I am not here to talk about politics, just about football. Shouldn't have said anything in this thread i guess.
Maybe even intelligence is the wrong wording in this case. Maybe it's about vision or whatever. I don't know the physical reason, or if there even is a reason but my point is: Why is it, that the great 'maestros' in this game, known for their intelligence/vision/whatever on the pitch, are mostly white players? I mean players such as Iniesta, Xavi, Zidane, Modric, Kroos, etc. Except of maybe Ronaldinho, there comes no player into my mind which is comparable to them in that topic. At least not since i watch football. I haven't seen the likes of Pele etc.
It was not meant to be a 'gotcha' question. I am genuinely interested in your thought process and I don't feel that aggressively attacking people solves anything or changes anything.
I asked because surely the logical conclusion to what you're saying is that black people are less intelligent than white people? Your main argument is that there are far more of these kinds of players who are white than there are of the ones who are black. Fair point. You can't argue with that. There are also far more countries which are majority white which are well off. There are not so many in Africa. Even in Western countries, we are generally less well off than the white population.
So in football, there are more white 'intelligent' players and this is used as evidence that white players are perhaps more naturally intelligent in football than black players. It is a case of correlation being equated with causation. So to extend that, the majority white countries are far more successful than the majority black ones right? So...are they more intelligent? If not, what is the difference between those countries?
Also Zidane is not white.
If you were to ask me why, I'd say there is very little proper football infrastructure in most African countries so the players who rise up are not getting a 'footballing education' in the same way a player at Barcelona or Ajax or Man Utd is. Similarly, even for the black players in Europe who have grown up here, there is a pretty typical attitude towards them with regards to how they're seen by many of their coaches, who often see them as physical specimens first and foremost (example, my son, who was often told to be the 'quick winger' or striker whenever he joins a new club, sometimes before they even see him play).
It is also easy to forget that football is, in the grand scheme of things, very very new. Spurs for example is one of the oldest clubs in the UK and yet was formed just over 100 years ago as a side project for when the local school couldn't play cricket in the winter. Many former colonies only had clubs set up in the last 60-70 years and many more recently than that. 100 years (or less) is not a long time and things are still constantly changing.
He looks pretty white to me.
Someone claimed on here not long ago that Benzema wasn’t white. Is this a French/Algerian thing?
Some of the posts in here are getting dangerously close to the pseudo-science of differences in racial IQ perpetrated especially in the early 20th century.
The reason Asian football is a long way behind European football is because the infrastructure is not equivalent at all. Europeans receive infinitely better training in their academies than South Koreans, Japanese or Mongolians do. The culture is also more allowing of kids to focus on their football than it would be in most Asian families. It has nothing to do with an innate footballing intelligence held by white players.
The vast majority of the best players at all in the last 100 years are white because the game is European dominated. After the Europeans come the South Americans, who are mostly descendants of European colonisers, mixed in with a small indigenous population, slaves brought over to work and a mixture of some of the above. Europeans have won 12 WCs, South America 9. South America haven't won one in 18 years. A country from outside of these 2 continents has reached the Semis once (South Korea, in highly suspicious circumstances).
They're both of Algerian descent and I doubt would self classify as white.
Perhaps more importantly, especially if those players did not play football, I doubt most French would see them as white.
That’s opening a whole different discussion into what race is I guess. Is it literally what colour you are, or what you feel like?
I’m probably gonna go with the first one though.
It is all about where you grow up playing, as an example there are very few of the "Maestro" types that you talk about from England because historically England youth teams have been encouraged to play a direct game which is devoid of intricate passing and does not necessarily foster great technical ability. There are of course outliers such as Carrick and Hoddle.
Ironically given the contents of your post one of the England players with the highest in game IQ of our generation is Rio Ferdinand. Race has nothing to do with it, youth development has everything to do with it.
Zidane is not white. If he were not a footballer and was just living in the rough neighbourhood he grew up in, he would not be treated the same as Clement in most areas of his life.
Race is a complex matter. Some Arabs are incredibly pale (my mother in law for instance is whiter than most Caucasians) but if you're a pale Arab called Mohammed, born in Syria, you are not going to be treated the same as an Edvard in Norway or a James in England.
China, Japan, Korea placed third, sixth, and eighth at the Rio Olympics.
In sports where dominant size is important like American football or basketball, I can see how Asians wouldn't do as well... but there's no reason they won't eventually become fairly good at football.
Americans would also be better at football if it were a simply issue of population base, money, or athleticism.
The Europeans and South Americans have years of history... it's deeply ingrained in their culture.
It will be decades before the Asians and the Americans catch up to the other continents. Though I think eventually they will as the sport continues to gain popularity around the globe.
In sports where dominant size is important like American football or basketball, I can see how Asians wouldn't do as well... but there's no reason they won't eventually become fairly good at football.
Americans would also be better at football if it were a simply issue of population base, money, or athleticism.
The Europeans and South Americans have years of history... it's deeply ingrained in their culture.
It will be decades before the Asians and the Americans catch up to the other continents. Though I think eventually they will as the sport continues to gain popularity around the globe.
Zidane's dad looks a bit like Burt Reynolds.
How is Zidane not white?
Burt Reynolds was part Native American
What does this mean? He's not white because he isn't. Read his Wiki.How is Zidane not white?