The John Murtough Era

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Without Ronaldo last season, we'd probably have finished around 8-10th place.
In an extremely poor side, he was scoring a lot of goals. He even scored 2 x hatricks. When was the last time that a player scored even 1 hatrick in a season?
DDG and CR7 were the 2 best players of last season and only a baffoon would claim that we'd have done better without either of them.
 
sunama said:
Without Ronaldo last season, we'd probably have finished around 8-10th place.
In an extremely poor side, he was scoring a lot of goals. He even scored 2 x hatricks. When was the last time that a player scored even 1 hatrick in a season?
DDG and CR7 were the 2 best players of last season and only a baffoon would claim that we'd have done better without either of them.
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That's quite a lazy, black and white narrative.

I do believe Ronaldo caused some disruption to the team balance both on the pitch and off it. We weren't the finish article by any means losing that Europa final, but still in far greater shape than this summer.

Long post on the previous page from another commentator who explained in detail the various knock on effects Ronaldo's arrival had on various players like Cavani (demoted and losing his #7), Maguire (publicly shamed as not good enough and certainly not for the armband), Rashford and Martial suffering also and then we consider tactically how we had to change completely with an ageing player clearly in decline but having to satiate his ego and feed him everything.
 
Keefy18 said:
The pressure from the CEO / Board and a legend as prominent as SAF would far outweigh the input of the coaches sadly.
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I don't believe Ole succumbed to the pressure from the board and Fergie to sign Ronaldo. If it wasn't for Fergie, he wouldn't even have been there in the first place and I think you being a 'staunch' Ole supporter will admit that.

Ole lost his job because you can only carry on counter attacking for so long , whilst relying on inexperienced coaches to coach the first team.
 
Adnan said:
I don't believe Ole succumbed to the pressure from the board and Fergie to sign Ronaldo. If it wasn't for Fergie, he wouldn't even have been there in the first place and I think you being a 'staunch' Ole supporter will admit that.

Ole lost his job because you can only carry on counter attacking for so long , whilst relying on inexperienced coaches to coach the first team.
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Precisely why he likely felt he had to take Ronaldo. Amazing you miss this in your statement.

Ole from the day he arrived to the day he left pushed the sentimental United Way narrative and banged on about SAF constantly, I've no doubt he was leaned on and perhaps was a bit naive also in agreeing to it.

The buck does stop with Ole, he could of said no but I reckon the pressure from different areas pushed him towards agreeing the deal.
 
Keefy18 said:
Precisely why he likely felt he had to take Ronaldo. Amazing you miss this in your statement.

Ole from the day he arrived to the day he left pushed the sentimental United Way narrative and banged on about SAF constantly, I've no doubt he was leaned on and perhaps was a bit naive also in agreeing to it.

The buck does stop with Ole, he could of said no but I reckon the pressure from different areas pushed him towards agreeing the deal.
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I wouldn't call it pressure but it had been reported that Fergie advised him to sign Ronaldo, like Fergie advised Mourinho to sign certain players like Dele Alli. And I'm not ignoring anything but have emphasised that a head coach/manager with a clear defined way of playing the game wouldn't veer away from his principles and sign a player like Ronaldo who was clearly on the decline due to age. A Manchester United manager has to be mentally strong in the way he wants to strategise going forward. But it seems our strategy was summed up by Mike Phelan, who said that he focuses on player strengths, rather than player weaknesses and played down the importance of data analytics. And he was the adviser to Ole who was also part of Ole's personal recruitment team along with their scout Simon Wells.

I do somewhat agree with the rest of your post, and believe it or not, I also stayed patient with Ole for 2 years. Because whether you're the manager/head coach or the DoF, you need to create a structure that is in-line with your vision going forward. So I wait for the structural pieces to be put together before passing judgement. I don't support individuals just for the sake of it, but rather I support those individuals to create a structure that supports their work in the mid to long-term.
 
So has Johnnycakes left Barcelona to go to Amsterdam to tie up the Martinez deal? Fully embracing that productive jet-set lifestyle.
 
Adnan said:
I wouldn't call it pressure but it had been reported that Fergie advised him to sign Ronaldo, like Fergie advised Mourinho to sign certain players like Dele Alli. And I'm not ignoring anything but have emphasised that a head coach/manager with a clear defined way of playing the game wouldn't veer away from his principles and sign a player like Ronaldo who was clearly on the decline due to age. A Manchester United manager has to be mentally strong in the way he wants to strategise going forward. But it seems our strategy was summed up by Mike Phelan, who said that he focuses on player strengths, rather than player weaknesses and played down the importance of data analytics. And he was the adviser to Ole who was also part of Ole's personal recruitment team along with their scout Simon Wells.

I do somewhat agree with the rest of your post, and believe it or not, I also stayed patient with Ole for 2 years. Because whether you're the manager/head coach or the DoF, you need to create a structure that is in-line with your vision going forward. So I wait for the structural pieces to be put together before passing judgement. I don't support individuals just for the sake of it, but rather I support those individuals to create a structure that supports their work in the mid to long-term.
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we will never know if Ole could have transitioned us from counter to dominant football but to compare SAF advising on Dele Alli with the hysteria around Ronaldo is unfair
 
Adnan said:
I wouldn't call it pressure but it had been reported that Fergie advised him to sign Ronaldo, like Fergie advised Mourinho to sign certain players like Dele Alli. And I'm not ignoring anything but have emphasised that a head coach/manager with a clear defined way of playing the game wouldn't veer away from his principles and sign a player like Ronaldo who was clearly on the decline due to age. A Manchester United manager has to be mentally strong in the way he wants to strategise going forward. But it seems our strategy was summed up by Mike Phelan, who said that he focuses on player strengths, rather than player weaknesses and played down the importance of data analytics. And he was the adviser to Ole who was also part of Ole's personal recruitment team along with their scout Simon Wells.

I do somewhat agree with the rest of your post, and believe it or not, I also stayed patient with Ole for 2 years. Because whether you're the manager/head coach or the DoF, you need to create a structure that is in-line with your vision going forward. So I wait for the structural pieces to be put together before passing judgement. I don't support individuals just for the sake of it, but rather I support those individuals to create a structure that supports their work in the mid to long-term.
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I supported Ole heavily, considering the state we were in after Jose. It was something new and different and although he was never tactically brilliant I still loved the guy cause he is a United legend.

Like you say, you do need to be very mentally strong to take this job on.. it consumes most that try it and for all my support of Ole, I'm not sure he was strong enough. I think he was too soft on the players and if he was that way with players, it suggests to me he was probably easily led at board room level also in terms of transfers and hiring coaches etc.

His whole era just screamed "United Way".

I'm trying to be patient but honestly after 10 plus years of a circus its difficult to truly believe changes have happened, especially considering Woodward seems to have handed the reigns to one of his hires going back to the very start, I can fully understand why some tag him as being a Woodward yes man.. he's managed to survive through all these different managers and now pushed to the front for his chance in the spot light.
 
Keefy18 said:
I supported Ole heavily, considering the state we were in after Jose. It was something new and different and although he was never tactically brilliant I still loved the guy cause he is a United legend.

Like you say, you do need to be very mentally strong to take this job on.. it consumes most that try it and for all my support of Ole, I'm not sure he was strong enough. I think he was too soft on the players and if he was that way with players, it suggests to me he was probably easily led at board room level also in terms of transfers and hiring coaches etc.

His whole era just screamed "United Way".

I'm trying to be patient but honestly after 10 plus years of a circus its difficult to truly believe changes have happened, especially considering Woodward seems to have handed the reigns to one of his hires going back to the very start, I can fully understand why some tag him as being a Woodward yes man.. he's managed to survive through all these different managers and now pushed to the front for his chance in the spot light.
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I feel your frustration mate and agree with what you're saying.

But you have to understand where I'm coming from when I'm participating in this particular thread regarding John Murtough. And it's not because I'm coming to make excuses for him but rather to possibly correct people on what the role of Murtough was prior to him taking on the extra responsibility of the first team. And that role was to oversee the development of all things beneath the first team, which is a role that is common at a lot of other clubs.

And Murtough joined the club at the end of 2013, beginning of 2014. And he was brought to the club by David Moyes, and Murtough is as much of a Woodward man, as LVG and Mourinho were. And he has been successful at the club in the role he was occupying, which was to oversee the development teams/development coaches and the scouting/data analytics strategy. So the scouting network he put in place at youth level was headed by David Harrison, who is amongst the most revered youth scouting heads in the UK.

And Murtough poached Harrison from Man City, and formed a scouting network that is very functional, and I'm hoping the work he's put-in, in the last 8/9 years will translate to the first team with the some of Hannibal, Garnacho, Garner, Iqbal, Mainoo, Gore, Collyer, Shoretire, Isak Hansen, Fernandez etc successfully making the step up to first team football. And I can only give you my opinion, but the volume of quality at youth level is currently the highest I've seen in a very long time and that's testament to the work of Murtough and the team of people who work beneath him. Murtough is someone that has almost 20 years worth of experience at the structural level at various different clubs. And was modernising football clubs as early as 2004.

And the recruitment structure at first team level was a recruitment structure that was put together by the managers post Fergie who utilised their own recruitment staff. And the club's recruitment structure at first team level was put together by Fergies former scouts (Lawlor & Court) and former LVG, opposition scout, Marcel Bout. And that was a structure overseen by Ed Woodward. Murtough has come in and broke that up, and a data science head is now in place for the new season and someone will also be appointed as the head of recruitment, which is a extremely important role on the structural side of any football club.

And once he has those people in place, I will judge their work after a full season under their belt. You judge a structural setup over the longterm, or one can end up doing what Liverpool fans did, who kept calling for the head of Michael Edwards, two years after he was installed as their DoF.
 
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Keefy18 said:
It was LVG that wanted that.

It's actually logically the correct way a club should be set up and I loved the idea. Pity the type of football was dire however at that point in his career.
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Wouldn't shock me if I was mixing them up. God I hated to watch us under LVG, so boring.
 
Beans said:
Wouldn't shock me if I was mixing them up. God I hated to watch us under LVG, so boring.
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Yes incredibly so.

I think he had the right idea though tbh in terms of setting up all levels at the club playing the same way and promoting from within. It's cost effective and means players are ready to step into the fold if good enough.
 
Amir said:
Do the people who insist Solskjaer was pushed/forced to sign Ronaldo have any evidence to back it up?
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Mitten has consistently said that one day Ronaldo just turned up and no one on the footballing side of things had any idea the transfer was happening as none of them had been involved or spoken to at any point, admittedly it happened pretty quickly. He also followed that up with quite a few people on the footballing side of United would be very relieved if he was to leave this summer.
 
Call me a skeptic but does it not seem very short sighted to be looking to sign former or current Ajax affiliated players exclusively? I thought we had a load of data on players all over the world but we're chasing players the manager wants again? Recipe for disaster if Ten Hag get's fired in the next two seasons.
 
Amir said:
Do the people who insist Solskjaer was pushed/forced to sign Ronaldo have any evidence to back it up?
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The only evidence we have is that the decision to sign Ronaldo was left to Ole, and he gave the club the go ahead to sign the player.

I don't believe we sign Ronaldo under ten Hag due to him being very particular in what he expects from his players in both the offensive and defensive transition.
 
If he gets De Jong over the line... Then he deserves a lot of credit for getting our main target for once.

So far Malacia, Martinez and Eriksen were attainable. De Jong, Antony, a striker and a right back.

The next 4 signings/targets are where he'd earn his salt.
 
MrSingh2002 said:
If he gets De Jong over the line... Then he deserves a lot of credit for getting our main target for once.

So far Malacia, Martinez and Eriksen were attainable. De Jong, Antony, a striker and a right back.

The next 4 signings/targets are where he'd earn his salt.
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Think that’s harsh. We usually do get players we go all out for - Di Maria, Pogba, Lukaku, Maguire, Sancho etc.
 
crossy1686 said:
Mitten has consistently said that one day Ronaldo just turned up and no one on the footballing side of things had any idea the transfer was happening as none of them had been involved or spoken to at any point, admittedly it happened pretty quickly.
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I heard Mitten mention that on the Athletic podcast a few days ago. But unless the person who told him that was Solskjaer, that does not mean that Solskjaer himself did not know. He might not have bothered or had time to share it or discuss with his staff, but that's a different matter.
 
Amir said:
I heard Mitten mention that on the Athletic podcast a few days ago. But unless the person who told him that was Solskjaer, that does not mean that Solskjaer himself did not know. He might not have bothered or had time to share it or discuss with his staff, but that's a different matter.
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I hope we don't pull a fast one like that on ETH.
 
Extract from The Athletic:


Ten Hag on… his interview with United directors

“I think we co-operate well with John Murtough, really good communication. It’s the same I think with Richard Arnold. I feel really comfortable with it.

“I think I have a clear idea about strategy. The way I want to play football but also in the way a top football club has to be structured. We talked about those ideas and we agreed on the structures and the way we play football. Now we have to implement that.”

Laurie Whitwell: Ten Hag was highly critical of United’s issues when interviewed by Murtough, Arnold and technical director Darren Fletcher in Amsterdam. It was a risk, but the trio came away impressed at his honesty and evident enthusiasm for fixing the problems.

Interestingly, he said an agreement was reached on the structure and playing style, not only for his involvement on that level, but also perhaps indicating more changes are on the way.

 
MrSingh2002 said:
If he gets De Jong over the line... Then he deserves a lot of credit for getting our main target for once.

So far Malacia, Martinez and Eriksen were attainable. De Jong, Antony, a striker and a right back.

The next 4 signings/targets are where he'd earn his salt.
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I think he's done his bit to get De Jong but it's not in his (or United's) hands any more. Barca and De Jong need to work out a compromise.
 
bringbackbebe said:
I think he's done his bit to get De Jong but it's not in his (or United's) hands any more. Barca and De Jong need to work out a compromise.
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Indeed. There is only so much you can do to persuade a player to join or a club to sell and this is quite possibly one of the most ridiculous transfer standoffs between a club and player I can remember.
 
Going back to Ronaldo, he was heading towards City and thats when Utd/Fergie stepped in. I think if Ronaldo had have been heading to a team outside England, he would be there now and Utd wouldnt have interviened.
 
sglowrider said:
Extract from The Athletic:


Ten Hag on… his interview with United directors

“I think we co-operate well with John Murtough, really good communication. It’s the same I think with Richard Arnold. I feel really comfortable with it.

“I think I have a clear idea about strategy. The way I want to play football but also in the way a top football club has to be structured. We talked about those ideas and we agreed on the structures and the way we play football. Now we have to implement that.”

Laurie Whitwell: Ten Hag was highly critical of United’s issues when interviewed by Murtough, Arnold and technical director Darren Fletcher in Amsterdam. It was a risk, but the trio came away impressed at his honesty and evident enthusiasm for fixing the problems.

Interestingly, he said an agreement was reached on the structure and playing style, not only for his involvement on that level, but also perhaps indicating more changes are on the way.
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That's the sort of manager United needs. You got the impression that in Ole he probably wasn't on the ball with regards to how the club should be properly organised, and in Mourinho and Rangnick they were more interested in burning the house down. Recognising the extent of the problem is one thing, having a clear idea about to resolve it and push on is another. Early days but everything we're hearing is very promising.
 
redcucumber said:
That's the sort of manager United needs. You got the impression that in Ole he probably wasn't on the ball with regards to how the club should be properly organised, and in Mourinho and Rangnick they were more interested in burning the house down. Recognising the extent of the problem is one thing, having a clear idea about to resolve it and push on is another. Early days but everything we're hearing is very promising.
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Tbf to Ole, his idealised version of united would be his years under Fergie. But unfortunately football has professionalised and moved forward since then. He was anachronistic in his version of football albeit a movement forward from Jose's.
 
bringbackbebe said:
I think he's done his bit to get De Jong but it's not in his (or United's) hands any more. Barca and De Jong need to work out a compromise.
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Not entirely I think there's perhaps opportunity at restructuring the guaranteed payment / first installments which could offer a work around. Also have to consider United have been fortunate because there's seemingly no admirers for FDJ.
 
Vapor trail said:
Not entirely I think there's perhaps opportunity at restructuring the guaranteed payment / first installments which could offer a work around. Also have to consider United have been fortunate because there's seemingly no admirers for FDJ.
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We have an agreement with the club, that's not the issue. The issue is, irrespective of how we structure our deal, Barca "morally" owe De Jong 20m euros which they are refusing to pay if he leaves, citing legality (they legally owe him nothing). Unless we increase our bid by 20m euros and pay 100m for De Jong, this deal isn't going to work.
 
Exactly 2 weeks before season starts. We bought 2 backups and one first 11 player.
Great job so far
 
He’s going to get absolutely crucified if McFred is our starting 11 midfield after the transfer window closes.
 
Garethw said:
He’s going to get absolutely crucified if McFred is our starting 11 midfield after the transfer window closes.
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It's been a below par window, good players have come in that's undoubted but they are in positions where there's depth. The starting eleven is miles off quality wise. Midfield area remains a travesty.
 
Garethw said:
He’s going to get absolutely crucified if McFred is our starting 11 midfield after the transfer window closes.
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Vapor trail said:
It's been a below par window, good players have come in that's undoubted but they are in positions where there's depth. The starting eleven is miles off quality wise. Midfield area remains a travesty.
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Dont be surprised if McFred actually look pretty good in a proper system.
 
Ten Hag's 3 priorities were De Jong, Nunez and Antony. 10 days to the start of the season and we know Nunez snubbed us, nothing can be done about that.
De Jong doesn't want to join us. Once again we've being led on a wild goose chase. 3 months fecking around for feck all.

Antony is being priced at £65m to £70m. If we get Antony for £65m we'll have spent £110m on 2 Ajax players most people had never even fecking heard of 3 months ago.

We would still have no CDM, CM, RB and FWD(9) bought. These were accepted to be our main priorities (along with RW)

Ten Hag is quickly learning what previous managers did before their inevitable demise. The board will always let you down. Murtough and Arnold are just the same as the previous regime. New packaging over the same old shit.
 
Frank Grimes said:
Ten Hag's 3 priorities were De Jong, Nunez and Antony. 10 days to the start of the season and we know Nunez snubbed us, nothing can be done about that.
De Jong doesn't want to join us. Once again we've being led on a wild goose chase. 3 months fecking around for feck all.
Antony is being priced at £65m to £70m. If we get Antony for £65m we'll have spent £110m on 2 Ajax players most people had never even fecking heard of 3 months ago.
We would still have no CDM, CM, RB and FWD(9) bought. These were accepted to be our main priorities (along with RW)
Ten Hag is quickly learning what previous managers did before their inevitable demise. The board will always let you down. Murtough and Arnold are just the same as the previous regime. New packaging over the same old shit.
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Classic opinion piece
 
TheReligion said:
It’s tiresome but someone has to sift through your ramblings and tell you how it is.
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My ramblings like when in Ronaldo thread a few weeks back I nailed exactly what is happening right now. Not bad for ramblings.

I can tell it still irks you as you've been following me around thread to thread since trying to get one over me. Let It go.
 
Frank Grimes said:
Ten Hag's 3 priorities were De Jong, Nunez and Antony. 10 days to the start of the season and we know Nunez snubbed us, nothing can be done about that.
De Jong doesn't want to join us. Once again we've being led on a wild goose chase. 3 months fecking around for feck all.

Antony is being priced at £65m to £70m. If we get Antony for £65m we'll have spent £110m on 2 Ajax players most people had never even fecking heard of 3 months ago.

We would still have no CDM, CM, RB and FWD(9) bought. These were accepted to be our main priorities (along with RW)

Ten Hag is quickly learning what previous managers did before their inevitable demise. The board will always let you down. Murtough and Arnold are just the same as the previous regime. New packaging over the same old shit.
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Sounds like you are a club insider. So much delicate information that the rest of us are unaware of.
 
Frank Grimes said:
My ramblings like when in Ronaldo thread a few weeks back I nailed exactly what is happening right now. Not bad for ramblings.

I can tell it still irks you as you've been following me around thread to thread since trying to get one over me. Let It go.
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I have no I idea who you are if I’m honest.

I’ll get some medals sent out in the post for you though for ‘nailing’ it. Congratulations!
 
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