I don't disagree with anything you just said. What I disagree on is the fact that you are giving, Murtough over a year into when he was appointed, a complete pass on everything that as led us to this point and another summer of manager-lead recruitment.
The John Murtough Era
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The team falling apart is hardly evidence that Solskjaer didn't want him.
Tbh with you, I think we'll have the answer by the subsequent transfer windows. I personally believe our approach to recruitment will be more diverse when someone is appointed in a head of scouting capacity. Because when you have a head of scouting, then the DoF can turn around and say to the head coach that I've got this many reports and a full season's worth of data saying such and such is a better player for you. Similar to how Liverpool signed Salah over Klopp's preference for Brandt. But to get to that stage, Klopp gave the Liverpool recruitment team time to understand his methods towards recruiting to a bespoke recruitment model which catered for a specific way of playing a high attacking brand of football with counter pressing capabilities.
I'm sure it will get sorted in due course.
It would have been nice if, once Woodward's departure date was known, Arnold and Murtough had got their heads together off-grid and hatched a secret plan of action that could have been implemented the moment the former had gone. Surely it didn't take Woodward's departure to make them realise that the likes of Judge and Lawlor needed to be replaced? Maybe they could have identified replacements who could have been in post in advance of the window opening.
I'm sure we'll be making changes that in the future would offer more diverse options that Ajax players/former Ajax players/Eredivisie players. But I can't see how we'll move away with ETH making the final decisions. Once we're given him that power this summer, it's unilkely we'll be able to take it away in the future. It'll have to wait for the next manager.
You just seem to cherry pick the good bits for Murtough to suit you're own narrative. I've no issue saying ETH is obviously a better coach than Ole, so too LVG & Jose.
Honestly don't care what the Athletic state, a quick search of their articles show me plenty of their articles stating Ferguson pushed for the board to complete the signing also. Like any media outlet they'll create stories for both sides of the argument to ensure revenue.
Murtough is now also allowing ETH the same freedom to pick his own players, so he's hardly revolutionizing anything currently. I appreciate it takes time, still 1 year on and hiring a data scientist 9 months ago and little has changed.
Still find ourselves caught up in transfer sagas and slow to get deals done. All we've seen transfer activity wise is 1 signing and 1 loaned out.
Last summer Murtough was getting praised for the way our recruitment seemed to be better but now that it's gone badly apparently he wasn't involved. I'm sure that an egotist like Woodward made it harder for him to do his job (and probably delayed some of the things he wanted to do) and it's clear that the Ronaldo signing wasn't driven by him but by a commercial focus from the club and Solskjaer turning us into a United tribute act. However to now suggest that he's only been doing the role since Woodward left also isn't right.
For instance Murtough was the one who pushed for the Rangnick appointment and that was a disaster. This was always going to be a long rebuild and so any sort of assessments of his performance at this stage are ridiculous plus I'm sure it's easier now with a chief executive who knows his role better and is leaving the football side to the experts but it's also not correct to keep shifting the goalposts.
He's made a couple of errors to this point but I really like the Ten Hag appointment and he's clearly still working on bringing things together behind the scenes (the changes to the leadership of the scouting department should make our recruitment a bit more imaginative in future years rather than just current/former Ajax players and Dutch players) and although the recruitment has been slow that seems to be due to a desire to be methodical and to get good deals, I think other clubs have seen as schmucks that they can take for a ride in the last few years and that needs to change, with plenty of time still in the window for the team to look more competitive in a few weeks.
I'm not blaming Murtough for the problems he walked into. Those were issues that were created by Woodward and the managers like LVG, Mourinho and Ole.
It's going to take time to modernise our setup. But I think if Murtough stays consistent in his decision making and stays true to wanting to implement a attacking brand of football, then I believe we will at the very least create the foundation for success. All DoFs make mistakes but it's important to stay consistent in your decision making which is key in the mid to long-term. So for me we're now a team that is working towards transitioning to becoming a proactive attacking team from a reactive counter attacking one. And the decision making needs to stay consistent with that vision.
@Nytram Shakes has raised a number of reasoned points about Murtough, which are in marked contrast to a lot of the hysterical nonsense on here.
Richard Arnold appears to be a proper CEO who isn't afraid of making big decisions. If things haven't been sorted by the next transfer window I imagine he'll be wondering whether a change of DOF might be needed.
Richard Arnold appears to be a proper CEO who isn't afraid of making big decisions. If things haven't been sorted by the next transfer window I imagine he'll be wondering whether a change of DOF might be needed.
That's my point, it's the giving Murtough praise for good things and saying he isn't to blame for anything bad that's my issue.
Was Ronaldo Murtough idea? No idea, personally I would suspect it was Woodward and maybe Ole's but I have absolutely no idea. It could have been Murtough crunching numbers going Ronaldo's goals are what the team needs right now let's get him in. I don't know no one on this forum does we are just guessing.
We know Rangnick was Murtough's idea, that was obviously a disaster, as it didn't achieve any of its goals, it didn't help in the short term and any benefits of having someone like Rangnick assess the squad have also been negated as Ten Hag didn't want to take them on board.
As for this summer, transfer deals have been slow due to us trying to get the best deals. You could argue that is a similar story for pretty much every window post fergie, and the only time it has actually worked was with Sancho when we left it and got him for cheaper the next summer.
For me currently, it just seems we are exactly where we always have been post-Fergie, new manager comes in, we arnt really prepared and we dart around trying to get their targets in normally in a very long-winded process, which normally ends up with us scrambling and over paying at the end of the window
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I don't have a issue with you not caring about what The Athletic or The Times have written about Solskjaer, but I do, because he wasn't a coach on the training ground and when you don't have a defined way of playing the game, you end up signing a past it Ronaldo who has deficiencies off the ball.
He hired the data scientist who was only able to start work in March this year due to the pandemic.
I'm not cherry picking anything and I have no issue with Murtough allowing ten Hag to sign players that are in-tune with his methods. Liverpool did the same thing in Klopp's first summer window and then in subsequent windows, the Liverpool recruitment team scouted players for a bespoke recruitment plan catered towards Jurgen Klopp's methods.
I couldn't care less about transfer sagas etc, and only care about what arrives once the window is closed. Our issues haven't revolved around players we haven't been able to sign, but rather our issues have been signing the wrong players with Ed Woodward being the first point of contact between the football department led by the managers post Fergie.
I mean I don't know anything about Arnold, the leaked footage really impressed me, he understood the club just can't keep throwing money at this every window and that the club has wasted so much already. He didn't sugarcoat it he just told the truth, which I respect, but equally, he could just be a good talker and not good at ensuring the correct decisions are made. Personally, I'm also very sceptical of anyone who has been a director at the club as long as he has (he's been here since 2007 if I'm correct).
Also if it comes to Murtough being fired (and I really hope it doesn't) this club will be in an incredible mess as it will likely mean we have blown another few hundred million and don't have a lot to show for it, which the club doesn't have the resources to keep doing and then keep spending. So I very much hope it doesn't come to that. But just because I hope that isn't what happens doesn't mean I'm going to give Murtough a pass on everything, which some people seem to be.
Spotted in Barcelona on the piss with Arnold.
Sack em both
Sack em both
Getting rid of Judge, Bout and Lawlor, apparently moving Phelan into a different role, OKing the appointment of ten Hag and his staff, and backing the manager's recruitment plans rather than signing players on the "recommendation" of silver-tongued agents are all correct decisions that have been made under him, so I'm pretty pleased so far. I do agree that not enough thought seems to have been given to replacing the Useless Brigade in a timely manner.
Let's not forget that he also has the very tricky task of persuading the Glazers that their Golden Boy Ed Woodward was in fact a complete idiot, and that virtually every major (and expensive) decision he made now has to be undone. I wouldn't fancy his job getting them on board with that, but he seems to be succeeding so far. It's to be hoped that they'll get to the stage where they trust him sufficiently to no longer require sign-off of every decision.
I agree with your general points about the club being in transition and giving Murtough some slack, but I also think it’s I’ll-advised to let ETH spend a lot when the club isn’t in position to fully vet his signings, especially when his experience is limited to the Eredivisie.
You bring up Klopp, but he didn’t pull a single player he actually coached before, and there’s a lot more talent in the Bundesliga and EPL. He also didn’t spend big money his his first year.
ETH has blind spots just like any other manager. A player like Malacia was cheap enough, and hopefully not put on crazy wages. If he flops, selling him to another club shouldn’t be that difficult. However, the numbers around Martinez,and especially Antony and FDJ are really high. If ETH is not successful and they don’t fit the next manager’s plans, they will be anchors around his neck. I’m especially concerned about this with de Jong, given that he plays a very niche role and his wages are going to be very high. If we spend big money on him and it doesn’t work out, Murtough will be just as much to blame as he would be if he had a system in place for a few years already.
Funny how you blame it all on Woodward yet ignore the fact it was a problem he inherited also.
It's a legacy issue going back to SAF and Gill. It isn't a popular opinion but that's the truth of it and before you say it, I'm aware it was on Woodward also to fix, which he obviously didn't. Up to Murtough and Arnold now.
Why would the Data Scientist only start in March?
As we are starting again, I don't necessarily have issue with ETH getting the ball rolling with suitable players....the problems may arise when that power is taken away in the January window and next summer.
You probably should care about transfer sagas, its a bad look and people within the game talk. We've had a terrible reputation for years and this summer seems no different. The saga is continuing again here with FDJ and now Ronaldo (only starting but I think we know it'll run the whole summer. Happy for him to go as long as there is a suitable replacement).
Where have I blamed everything on Woodward? I clearly stated that him being the first point of contact between the managers was the problem. Having a non footballing man to be the first point of contact was the issue.
I also explained to you why Dominic Jordan started in March this year and not at a earlier date. And that was due to the pandemic, which was reported by the guys at the training ground guru, who specifically focus on the structural side of football clubs.
I also agree that the rot started with David Gill and have written long winded posts about his role in our malaise. Gill is the same chief executive who was tasked with appointing the next England manager, 6 years ago and put forth the name of Steve Bruce, whilst Martin Glenn chose Sam Allardyce.
Tbh with you mate I've never really cared about transfer sagas as such but do enjoy reading about the supposed chase. And even under Fergie we signed a lot of our better players like Rio, Ronaldo, Rooney, Van Persie etc, at the end of July or in August. I just want us to sign the correct profile of player for the head coach/manager. And if they can do this then we can start improving and getting back to challenging again in a couple of years.
It's about the quality of player and not the quantity of players, that will potentially get us back to where we aspire to be.
Well you stated it was Woodwards fault and absolved Murtough of any fault even though he has been in the role over a year already. You've stated to other posters that Woodward over ruled him essentially and he only really started "de facto" from March of this year with Woodwards resignation.
Totally agree on the late Fergie signings, thing is he fully earned that trust from us. Transfers by an large under the Glazer tenure have been poor, year after year... its not solely their fault its a mix of a lot of peoples fault.
I know you said it was due to the pandemic, but why? Football was being played, coaches were at the grounds... there's no logical reason why a data scientist couldn't start their job instantly. Unless there is some more underlying issue I am not aware of.
I don't believe we're going to sign a player from any European league without the input of the head of recruitment in Europe, who is Henny de Regt. And the Dutch League falls under the remit of de Regt who is a very experienced scout and was credited with discovering players like Wesley Sneijder, Christian Eriksen and Mathijs de Ligt, whilst he was at Ajax.
Ten Hag hasn't signed a player he's coached before either. Malacia and Eriksen (reportedly close) are two players he's never coached from my understanding. But having said that, Klopp signed players who were coached and familiar with his heavy metal approach to the game and understood the counter pressing requirements off the ball. Malacia and Eriksen are also both familiar with high intensity positional play from their time spent under Arne Slot at Feyenoord and Eriksen coming through the ranks at Ajax. And that's what's important.
You have to make decisions for now that are going to be fraught with risk or perceived risk. But no matter who is signed, there will be question marks. So there is no getting away from the risk element for now, no matter who is signed. All I believe they should do is sign players for the clear defined way of playing the game and have Dominic Jordan and the head of scouting in place for the new season.
What were the mistakes that were made by Murtough since 2021? He came into a setup where the manager model was still in effect and the coaching issues were already abundant. Solskjaer like his predecessor had his personal scout helping him recruit players and Solskjaer was pictured several times with Phelan in several football stadiums scouting players.
The mistakes I have seen you attribute to Murtough, is the temporary appointment of Rangnick. That's fair enough, but for me that's not a mistake because it's the first time someone at the club made a appointment that meshed with the modern game and he followed that up with the permanent appointment of EtH, who again is a progressive coach with the added ability to coach positional play in possession of the ball, on top of having the know how to coach a coordinated counter pressing game off the ball. The mistakes were made before and it's going to take time to rectify the coaching errors and decisions of the past. But for me mistakes are going to happen and its about staying consistent in the decision making process which will get us out of this rut.
I have no idea why the pandemic held up the arrival of Dominic Jordan. But it was reported by the guys at the training ground Guru, that he only took up his role in March this year due to the pandemic.
Yes, but my concern is committing huge money to an unproven manager for him to sign niche players. FDJ prefers to play in the DM role, but he’s not a physical defensive presence the way players like Kante and Fabinho are. Then, Martinez is a 175cm tall center back. There are plenty of managers who love to play from the back and probably wouldn’t like either player very much. If they cost 30-40 million pounds, and were coming in on 75k per week, I wouldn’t worry, because we could sell them off easily enough if they don’t pan out, but that’s not the case.
I guess I should state my thoughts as this:
I think we should categorically deny signing players above a certain fee and wage in a manager’s first year. I don’t know exactly what that number is, but I’m sure De Jong is over it, and I’m sure Martinez is close.
I’m excited about ETH and think he was a very good hire, but he’s still unproven, and giving him these types of signings is in many ways still a repeat of what we did by giving managers a lot of money to buy players when we don’t know how good the manager is, and the player’s wages make selling him very difficult. If Murtough does not think his analytics and scouting teams are ready to be leaned on for recommendations, then he shouldn’t feel comfortable spending huge sums on anyone.
Did you add that second para later? I don't remember seeing it when I replied initially.
I hope it doesn't get to Murtough being fired either, particularly as a result of the entire ETH project being a disaster; that would indeed be an incredible mess
He needs all the help the club can give him; not so much giving him wads of cash to spend but letting him bench and/or sell underperformers, malcontents and players who don't fit in. Oh, and no more Ronaldos.I was thinking more of us being in a situation in twelve months' time where the scouting and recruitment is still not fit for purpose. It would be hard for Murtough to evade the blame for that.
But then I’d argue a lot of the recruitment has been manager lead post Fergie.
Was it Arnold who pushed out Woodward? We have no idea. Personally I suspect it was more to do with the fall out from the super league, but the idea the Glazers realised Woodward didn’t know what he was doing even at that really late stage is a nice thought.
It’s also questionable weather the appointment of Ten Hag is any diffent to the Woodward appointments. People forget that LVG, Mourinho and Ole were all over whelming favourites to get the job when they were given the job on a permanent bases dispite the fact pretty much everyone of them meant doing a 180 in our style of play and going back to the drawing board (again a simlar situation to with Ten Hag) In fact most of signings Woodward made were agreed with by fans. Let’s not forget about 95% of this forum thought Sanchez was a bargain. So while I’m really excited to see a Ten Hag United, I also recognise the most popular choice in no way makes it the right choice. Te
You could also argue there are alot of similarities at least so far between Woodwards first window and Arnold
I’ve never said said your should blame him for the problems he walked into, im saying your excusing him of everything that has happened in year plus he has been in the position.
Frenkie de Jong has been utilised by ten Hag in a double pivot and will have a player occupying the half space next to him, assuming we sign him. I would prefer someone to be bought to play next to him, but I feel it's important to sign someone of de Jong's profile, who has the ability to help us progress play and evade the press at a high level. Ten Hag also has the option of inverting one of the fullbacks to provide a potential rest defence mechanism in the event the opponent breaches the first two lines of our press. So the inverted fullback could be the key to maintaining a defence balance on the turn over, and both Shaw and Malacia have the potential ability to be utilsed in such a way. So my concern mostly is about us signing the midfield metronome for now.
We had no issues wasting huge amounts on our previous managers who ended up implementing a reactive approach to the game. I don't think we should start now that we finally have a head coach who looks to implement a progressive approach to the game.
I agree about not going over a certain amount for certain players. But I honestly think we should push the boat out a little for de Jong due to how poor we are in midfield. And the alternatives don't look as good and won't come much cheaper either.
We've only signed one player as of now, but it seems like we've signed the whole Ajax squad reading the forum. Bayern have signed two players from Ajax and I think if we can sign a couple, then fantastic. And players like Antony and Martinez are good players who I would like us to sign, but I do agree we shouldn't push the boat out too much for either player.
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I'm actually one of the most critical fans on here when it comes critiquing people at the club. But like I did with Ole and others, I will give him time before passing judgement. And in Murtough's case it's simple, and you should ask me the question at the end of the summer window in 2023 at the earliest, when he should have the input of the head of scouting and the head of data science who will have a full seasons work under their belt.
Yeah I agree, I think also if we spend a lot of money this summer and the targets don’t pan out he has to be blamed as well for allowing Ten Hag to pick the targets.Did you add that second para later? I don't remember seeing it when I replied initially.
I hope it doesn't get to Murtough being fired either, particularly as a result of the entire ETH project being a disaster; that would indeed be an incredible mess
I was thinking more of us being in a situation in twelve months' time where the scouting and recruitment is still not fit for purpose. It would be hard for Murtough to evade the blame for that.
it will be very interesting what happens next season, if all what people are speculating is true that Ten Hag is only dictating the targets because Murtough doesn’t trust the remainder of the scouting network. What happens next season if Murtough gets a scouting network he trusts in place, how is Ten Hag going to react going from seemingly have full control of the targets (this summer) to having that at least reduced say when/if Murtough gets a net work he trusts. People rarely like having there power reduced. Will be interesting.
I very much hope he gets next summer right and puts things in place. Starting a new job is hard especially when it’s job bigger than anything you have been asked to do before for a business that is badly ran. But that doesn’t mean he isn’t to blame for anything that happened in first 15 months in the position.
I'm really not sure about that. Managers have been more influential than the club's scouts; of that there is little doubt. I'm still convinced that players' agents and selling clubs soft-soaping Ed Woodward have had the greatest influence on who we've signed.
I don't think anyone is arguing that Arnold pushed out Woodward; I don't think there's any doubt about the reason for his departure being the one you give. I'm not suggesting that the Glazers were looking at ditching him either; on the contrary, there were reports that they wanted him to stay.
That said, there had been lots of reports for several years that the Glazers, who had initially been pretty hands-off owners, had taken to insisting on ratifying any decision that involved spending money. Maybe they had cottoned on to the fact that we were still miles off winning stuff despite spending hundreds of millions.
I wouldn't disagree with any of that! Though maybe all three would have done better if the club had taken more trouble to ensure that the players signed for them were more suitable ones.
I agree, but that's because the Moyes window was the last one before this where we really had a manager calling the shots regarding targets; the agents hadn't had time to cosy up to Woodward (though Mata's had by January...).
Maybe he doesn't see it as power, and finds it a chore. He had no difficulty leaving Ajax's recruitment to the sex pest.
I don't think it's a case of Erik ten Hag being power hungry and wanting to control recruitment, but rather ten Hag being unimpressed by the recruitment structure at first team level when it comes to identifying players. So I believe the structure will be tweaked with the input of ten Hag, which will be followed by a couple of key additions to the recruitment team. Below is what Daniel Taylor wrote in The Athletic a few weeks back.
Daniel Taylor: "There are already rumblings that Erik ten Hag, their recently-appointed new manager, is not wholly impressed by the system they have in place for identifying targets and getting the best deals possible."
https://theathletic.com/3375792/2022/06/29/michael-edwards-liverpool-manchester-united-chelsea/
Why not? He hasn't been given any string structurally. Woodward and Judge ran the show. Maybe you should read the structure pre and post Woodward to better see how the landscape changed.
I hope so. He could like that he is in control of it and not reliant on other people to pick the right players. No idea. Guess we will find out.
Well Woodward hired Murtough when there was no sniff of him leaving. So that has at least stayed in place.
plus It’s 15 months if you have been in a job that long and are going nothing that has happened in that time or currently is my fault you arn’t taking much responsibility in your work. In those 15 months we have spent over 100 million last summer, are on our 3rd manager, after one was given and extension, the second was hired (by Murtough) was a disaster and isn’t now staying on as the consultant Murtough hired him to be. We are now into Murtough 3rd window again we’re it’s looks like we are at least trying to spend around 100 million yet are completely reliant on an incoming manger to pick the players (Somthing that he doesn’t seem to have been in charge of at Ajax so is new to him, at a new club in a new league with new players) which is a situation hiring a 15 months ago was meant to avoid. Add to that we seem to be massively struggling to get in those players and don’t seem to have a plan B.
Its not about not taking responsibility. Its about not being given any. Woodward wouldn't allow for the restructure that was required. Thats why Adnan told you many posts ago that he was only a de facto DoF till Feb this year. You either ignored it or missed reading it in the post.
Murtoughs actual responsibility didnt take off since Feb. Swiftly after that we saw sackings in every department from him + Arnold.
No idea if Ten Hag is power hungry, he very much comes accross as man who likes to be in charge but that’s just interviews, who knowes? I just think it will be intresting if we do revert to a more typical DOF and coach strategy. DOF brings in players with a bit of input from manager but mainly managers job to coach what he is given. A situation which would be very different to this summer.
Also is Ten Hag is unhappy with the structure and isn’t just paper talk, firstly I can’t say I would be surprised going from one of the best ran clubs to one of the worst, but surely would have to include Murtough in that as he is basically in charge of the systems and ensuring deals are arranged. But all this is speculation.
But then your basically saying Murtough was hired to be a puppet with no real responsibility and nothing more than a PR move and yet now is in charge basically by default.
Yes and no. Woodward was never going to let go, and I suppose Murtough’s elevation to the DoF role was largely a PR move.
That doesn’t mean he was completely unqualified for the role though; his setting up of the women’s team and oversight of the academy rebuild seem to have been major successes, despite the club’s commitment to the former being somewhat lacking.
I’m not sure we were ever that. Sir Alex’s exceptional all-round management skills held the whole thing together brilliantly, but that was down to him rather than “the club”.
In some ways yes, because for all of Woodwards intentions, he was always going to be a thorn in the club.
Its a bit like backing Ole with good signings. Some of his signings may be great but they wont blossom with him around. Woodwards hiring of Murtough is a bit like that. And now hes fecked off. Thankfully Arnold has freed up Murtough and immediately you've seen scouts sacked, an audit of our pastoral process, managers sacked and the head of contract negotiations sacked. Its not a coincidence this happened all almost instantly when Woodward officially fecked off.
Murtough wasn't in charge of the likes of Bout, Lawlor and Court and the several managers post Fergie who utilised their personal recruitment staff and he didn't have a hand in bringing them to the club.
Murtough was in charge of David Harrison who was the head of youth recruitment at youth level and they had a scouting network thar was catered towards youth players.
Their-in lies the issue, you don't know the above information and are jumping to conclusions about Murtough's role at first team level.
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