In some ways yes, because for all of Woodwards intentions, he was always going to be a thorn in the club.
Its a bit like backing Ole with good signings. Some of his signings may be great but they wont blossom with him around. Woodwards hiring of Murtough is a bit like that. And now hes fecked off. Thankfully Arnold has freed up Murtough and immediately you've seen scouts sacked, an audit of our pastoral process, managers sacked and the head of contract negotiations sacked. Its not a coincidence this happened all almost instantly when Woodward officially fecked off.
Of course, I’ve known about it for a little while. I’ve known John [Murtough] since I came in, he was here when I came. Now it’s more of a formal role, with the job title.
Ole can play the company tune after a decision has been made, and Ole has proven time and time again that he will do what is best for the club, fully realizing Ronaldo's marketing potential. Plus, I don't think United would neither hire a manager who would refuse to sign (and work with) Ronaldo nor stop themselves from getting Ronaldo even if the manager had the balls to do it.Ole was talking nonsense?
You can convince yourself that Ole didn't want Ronaldo, but both The Times and The Athletic reported that it was Solskjaer who pushed ahead with the Ronaldo signing. The Times went on to say that Solskjaer ignored the advice of his coaching staff to sign Ronaldo because he felt Ronaldo's goals would make up for his deficiencies off the ball. This is what happens when you allow a manager who doesn't coach the team to sign players, which then puts pressure on the actual training ground coaches like Kieran Mckenna who is then tasked with coaching the team.
I'm also familiar with your postings and I do know you have mentioned that you were a 'staunch' Ole supporter.
Agree 100% with all of that.In some ways yes, because for all of Woodwards intentions, he was always going to be a thorn in the club.
Its a bit like backing Ole with good signings. Some of his signings may be great but they wont blossom with him around. Woodwards hiring of Murtough is a bit like that. And now hes fecked off. Thankfully Arnold has freed up Murtough and immediately you've seen scouts sacked, an audit of our pastoral process, managers sacked and the head of contract negotiations sacked. Its not a coincidence this happened all almost instantly when Woodward officially fecked off.
Yeah his role was formal with a title. He didn't have much or any flex though.What I don't understand is Ole himself said Murtough was already doing the job but now he finally has the job title for it which goes to show that last year mistakes of not signing a midfielder was on Murtough but its convenient to blame it on only Woodward and Co.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ma...s-of-football-director-and-technical-director
I think if the superleague fiasco hadn't have happened, Woodward would still be calling the shots and Murtough would still be doing his previous job/or DOF in name only. Whether hes learning on the job now is a different story. I'll still give the benefit of the doubt over this summer up to next summers transfer window, as I expect next summer to be completely different to this. We have had massive upheaval at all levels this year and with a years experience from Arnold, Murtough, down to TH and with TH to identify players to sign and get shut of for next season, from this seasons players we should be in a better place.But if that's true we are trusting someone to rebuild the football side of the club, who was hired to be a token DOF, by Woodward who has spent 9 years in the job proving he wouldn't know a good football appointment from bad one. If that's true then its really worrying, as it basically says Murtough wasn't actually hired to do the job he is now doing and has now just become a real DOF by default.
Ole already had to play with one hand tied behind his back by not being allowed to just bench De Gea who played himself in the starting position.
The quotes below are from a piece by Laurie Whitwell who quite clearly states it was the decision of Ole to sign Ronaldo and he contacted Woodward to push ahead with a deal.Ole can play the company tune after a decision has been made, and Ole has proven time and time again that he will do what is best for the club, fully realizing Ronaldo's marketing potential. Plus, I don't think United would neither hire a manager who would refuse to sign (and work with) Ronaldo nor stop themselves from getting Ronaldo even if the manager had the balls to do it.
I also think Murtough and Woodward (and the chain above them) really did a number on Ole as his squad had a very fragile mentality after losing the Europa final on a Dave mistake, when Dave shouldn't have even come back into the squad, if it weren't for Henderson's COVID. The marquee signing and our golden boy Rashford, who played through injury to a declining but serviceable levels, both would miss penalties to lose the Euros final too.
Murtough and Woodward put United's immediate revenue generating future above the squad's future (both immediate and long term) by signing Ronaldo. It had repercussions across the entire structure.
Ole already had to play with one hand tied behind his back by not being allowed to just bench De Gea who played himself in the starting position. Maguire was an alright captain, obviously flawed both as a player, and as a leader, but the squad were happy with him as captain. Cavani was promised a fair chance at the starting slot against Greenwood and Martial, which he was already winning from the second half of previous season. Rashford was the obvious 'mercurial star' in the squad, enabled to shine by talent like Pogba (although I think Ole would've taken a good sum for him if there was someone available to replace him) and Bruno.
Sancho to take over the creative burden off Pogba, from the sides, as well as provide the left option for a Greenwood on the right, attack.
In comes Ronaldo.
We already couldn't really play from the back or high line because of De Gea but now we also can't play high press because of Ronaldo. So, Ole's long-term tactics are out.
Maguire is challenged as captain and the squad becomes more divided in groups. I'm not saying he shouldn't have been or whatever. But it happens. It disrupts the squad harmony.
Cavani is suddenly a sub, or at best, his supporting cast upfront. Cavani decides to be fully selfish after the club f**ked him and doesn't bother declaring fit.
Greenwood is being himself. Can't blame that on Ronaldo, I actually think Greenwood was emulating him and was improving as a player, at the expense of being too selfish and missing chance after chance (but that reminded me a lot of young Ronaldo and his selfishness and wastefulness).
Martial was already having a confidence crisis after not being able to score in the previous season (my suspicion is that he stopped trusting himself to score after the Europa League games) and , only to be reminded how important consistency is by Cristiano frickin Ronaldo. The master of "I perform every single day and thus deserve to be here". Obviously, Martial broke into a million small pieces.
Rashford also tried to emulate his idol but also accepting his terms to always receive the ball (Greenwood pretended he never got that memo), which totally threw him off his game. He used to be the guy who was expected to provide the spontaneous spark and go on a dribble to score a screamer or something. Now he was supposed to cross to Ronaldo. That didn't work one bit. Not doing it well, not following instructions, lashing out with selfish episodes. He just couldn't play well in a team that had to support Ronaldo.
Most of the team couldn't. Bruno was fine because he was used to it from their Portugal time. Almost everyone else struggled because of this adaptation combo: not high defensive line and no high press.
Ole paid the price first. Then so did Ralf. Hope that Erik will not have to deal with the Ronaldo problem and has Murtough's support to deal with the De Gea problem soon after.
Over a year? Four months control more like, since Woodward left.So what your saying is the Murtough over a year into the job going into what is one of the most important summers we have were it’s possible we may spend a 100 million quid, is utterly reliant on Ten Hags knowledge base for targets? And if they don’t pan out the scouting network we have is so bad it can’t be trusted? Again Is that is really bleak.
I'm not blaming Murtough for the problems he walked into. Those were issues that were created by Woodward and the managers like LVG, Mourinho and Ole.
It's going to take time to modernise our setup. But I think if Murtough stays consistent in his decision making and stays true to wanting to implement a attacking brand of football, then I believe we will at the very least create the foundation for success. All DoFs make mistakes but it's important to stay consistent in your decision making which is key in the mid to long-term. So for me we're now a team that is working towards transitioning to becoming a proactive attacking team from a reactive counter attacking one. And the decision making needs to stay consistent with that vision.
The quotes below are from a piece by Laurie Whitwell who quite clearly states it was the decision of Ole to sign Ronaldo and he contacted Woodward to push ahead with a deal.
Laurie Whitwell:
"When news filtered through on Thursday evening that, to Manchester United’s horror, Cristiano Ronaldo really had agreed to join Manchester City, manager Ole Gunnar Solskjaer spoke with his inner circle and knew United had to act."
"Solskjaer recognised that beyond the playing aspects for Pep Guardiola’s side across town, seeing Ronaldo pull on the blue shirt of City would have wider consequences for United. To allow a legendary United figure to turn out for their local rivals without a fight would damage the club in the eyes of current players, potential recruits, and supporters. Conversely, Solskjaer pictured the benefits re-signing Ronaldo could bring to his squad, one of the youngest in the Premier League, with his ultra-professionalism and elite pedigree."
"Solskjaer placed a call to chief executive Ed Woodward with one aim — he wanted to know if United could do the deal instead. It was a quick conversation. Woodward agreed instantly and set about negotiating with Ronaldo’s Italian club, Juventus."
https://theathletic.com/2794203/202...n-to-manchester-united-how-the-deal-was-done/
I hope this type of bullshit and inside job thing is now a thing of the past ffsThis press article is even more imaginary than the dressing room crisis stories. It is well known that Ronaldo was not going to City and neither were City interested. However SAF and I think Rio and Evra had spoken to Ronaldo about the rumours and persuaded him to come to Manchester United. Ronaldo's agent contacted the club and the rest is history.
But then your basically saying Murtough was hired to be a puppet with no real responsibility and nothing more than a PR move and yet now is in charge basically by default.
I agree with the overall gist of your post. It seems unlikely to me that either Ole or Pep would have been champing at the bit to sign Ronnie. The transfer feels far more agent driven; someone must have started the rumours after all.This press article is even more imaginary than the dressing room crisis stories. It is well known that Ronaldo was not going to City and neither were City interested. However SAF and I think Rio and Evra had spoken to Ronaldo about the rumours and persuaded him to come to Manchester United. Ronaldo's agent contacted the club and the rest is history.
That's what I call the "company tune". I think Ole was pressured by SAF, the club and the public to act, for the optics of Ronaldo going to City, as well as for the marketing potential.The quotes below are from a piece by Laurie Whitwell who quite clearly states it was the decision of Ole to sign Ronaldo and he contacted Woodward to push ahead with a deal.
Laurie Whitwell:
"When news filtered through on Thursday evening that, to Manchester United’s horror, Cristiano Ronaldo really had agreed to join Manchester City, manager Ole Gunnar Solskjaer spoke with his inner circle and knew United had to act."
"Solskjaer recognised that beyond the playing aspects for Pep Guardiola’s side across town, seeing Ronaldo pull on the blue shirt of City would have wider consequences for United. To allow a legendary United figure to turn out for their local rivals without a fight would damage the club in the eyes of current players, potential recruits, and supporters. Conversely, Solskjaer pictured the benefits re-signing Ronaldo could bring to his squad, one of the youngest in the Premier League, with his ultra-professionalism and elite pedigree."
"Solskjaer placed a call to chief executive Ed Woodward with one aim — he wanted to know if United could do the deal instead. It was a quick conversation. Woodward agreed instantly and set about negotiating with Ronaldo’s Italian club, Juventus."
https://theathletic.com/2794203/202...n-to-manchester-united-how-the-deal-was-done/
Paul Mitchell - MK Dons, Southampton, RB Leipzig, Monaco
Ralf Rangnick - Stuttgart, Hannover, Schalke, Hoffenheim, RB Leipzig
Would people be happy if we were the level of those clubs? I find this whole argument tiresome. Why have none of the genuinely big clubs ever gone for either of them if they're these supposed geniuses in their field?
This press article is even more imaginary than the dressing room crisis stories. It is well known that Ronaldo was not going to City and neither were City interested. However SAF and I think Rio and Evra had spoken to Ronaldo about the rumours and persuaded him to come to Manchester United. Ronaldo's agent contacted the club and the rest is history.
I don't believe it was the company line Ole was pedalling. Because The Times also reported about Ole ignoring the advice of his coaching staff to push ahead with a move for Ronaldo.That's what I call the "company tune". I think Ole was pressured by SAF, the club and the public to act, for the optics of Ronaldo going to City, as well as for the marketing potential.
I was implying Ten Hag had gone from Ajax (one of the best ran clubs) to us one of the worst ran clubs. I wasn't saying we use to be the best ran club. Maybe through the 90's.I’m not sure we were ever that. Sir Alex’s exceptional all-round management skills held the whole thing together brilliantly, but that was down to him rather than “the club”.
But its also not a good sign if its true that he was hired to be nothing more than a token appointment by a guy who didn't know how to run a football club. Yes he may still blossom as you put it, but the idea that the person in control has got the job or rebuilding the club basically by default is troubling.In some ways yes, because for all of Woodwards intentions, he was always going to be a thorn in the club.
Its a bit like backing Ole with good signings. Some of his signings may be great but they wont blossom with him around. Woodwards hiring of Murtough is a bit like that. And now hes fecked off. Thankfully Arnold has freed up Murtough and immediately you've seen scouts sacked, an audit of our pastoral process, managers sacked and the head of contract negotiations sacked. Its not a coincidence this happened all almost instantly when Woodward officially fecked off.
Your post doesn't seem to correlate with my post. I was talking about it will be interesting to see if it's true what you are saying that we are only doing manger led recruitment this summer due to the scouting situation and that won't be the policy going forward. How will Ten Hag react to that, going from name your targets, to a more atypical DOF/mangmanagerationship, where typically the manager doesn't have that level or power.Murtough wasn't in charge of the likes of Bout, Lawlor and Court and the several managers post Fergie who utilised their personal recruitment staff and he didn't have a hand in bringing them to the club.
Murtough was in charge of David Harrison who was the head of youth recruitment at youth level and they had a scouting network thar was catered towards youth players.
Their-in lies the issue, you don't know the above information and are jumping to conclusions about Murtough's role at first team level.
I pretty much agree with everything here.I think the word puppet is taking it a bit too far. In my opinion he was Woodward's man. That makes sense really since he got the job and he kept getting promoted during Woodward's era. I am also uncomfortable with the idea of Woodward calling all the shots and micromanaging everything. I had worked directly under various CEOs, some of whom were more controlling by others, however none of them would go on micromanaging everything. First of all it defeats the very concept of a CEO who is there to provide vision rather then get involved on the day to day running. Secondly a CEO, especially at a juggernaut like United with its huge debt and who are being kept afloat through sponsors etc, would have way bigger fish to fry then getting involved in the Ighalo's signing. So what controlling CEOs tend to do is hiring people with his same vision, people who will go to their boss asking for their advice whenever a decision needs to be taken. The fact that we've seen Arnold holding Murtough's hand in Barcelona as they are close to the deal kind of suggest that Murtough is that kind of person.
Thus I believe that while the structure wasn't in place, guys like Murtough had ample influence at the club which is why mistakes of the past are repeated in the present. We are still a club who are slow to act (ex signing players or keeping Ole for far too long), who struggle in signings players or getting rid of deadwood, who tend to go for the wrong people (ex Rangnick who had never managed a top club and who hasn't managed for quite some time), who give the manager whatever he wants during his first transfer window and who go on sacking people in key positions (chief scouts etc) in a crucial part of the season.
If you ask me, I have far more trust in Arnold turning things around then Murtough. The guy seems not to take BS very lightly. If things go wrong then I can see him sacking Murtough.
Fair enough.I was implying Ten Hag had gone from Ajax (one of the best ran clubs) to us one of the worst ran clubs. I wasn't saying we use to be the best ran club. Maybe through the 90's.
I pretty much agree with everything here.
For me it's pretty normal to centre our recruitment around ten Hag with a couple of expected appointments on the data and recruitment side of the club yet to come. And the head of data science along with someone in a head of scouting role are key players on the structural side of football clubs in the modern game. So like what happened with Liverpool under Klopp where he mostly signed players who were in-tune with his approach of sacrificing defensive stability for goals with counter pressing capabilities in his first foray in the transfer window. I expect us to do similar before the key players on the scouting and data analytics side take centre stage, similar to what happened at Liverpool.Your post doesn't seem to correlate with my post. I was talking about it will be interesting to see if it's true what you are saying that we are only doing manger led recruitment this summer due to the scouting situation and that won't be the policy going forward. How will Ten Hag react to that, going from name your targets, to a more atypical DOF/mangmanagerationship, where typically the manager doesn't have that level or power.
But no i don't know the information which is why i said I was speculating, none of us knows the full in's and out and who was responsible for what, we are all making guesses. We don't know who is to blame for what and who made what decision and why (whether they are good are bad). You are assuming that Murtough was nothing more than a token appointment who had minimal input. You don't know that, you are speculating to back up your belief in him. We are speculating.
I just don't think Ole had a choice or a say in the matter. And instead of throwing his toys in the pram like what Mourinho would do, saying he is forced to play or buy players and not get his targets, Ole always puts the face that protects and unites the club.I don't believe it was the company line Ole was pedalling. Because The Times also reported about Ole ignoring the advice of his coaching staff to push ahead with a move for Ronaldo.
So that's two reputable sources who reported similar. Fergie did aid Ole in signing Ronaldo, but the buck stops with the manager whose decision it was to sign the player. I'm yet to find any evidence that Ronaldo wasn't a signing Solskjaer pushed for.
That's fair enough mate.I just don't think Ole had a choice or a say in the matter. And instead of throwing his toys in the pram like what Mourinho would do, saying he is forced to play or buy players and not get his targets, Ole always puts the face that protects and unites the club.
That's how he left after being sacked, he gave an interview to ensure the club saves face
Reserve team seems cursed since Warren Joyce was fired when United had the best youth system in the league and had recently won the tournament and was among the top of the league table as well.thanks. There's some people in here who are so pro Jon Murtough fans that anything remotely against him will be seen as almost treason. Which is surprising. The guy is a Woodward's man just like Judge was, he is not a United lad, he was brought from the outside at the beginning of United's decline and kept being promoted ever since. Sure there were some aspects were he did well like setting the women's team (although the manager left later because of how poorly the female team was being treated ) and the youth team (we won the FA youth cup but we're still struggling in the leagues) but that's small fry really. I find this blind loyalty to him as fascinating really.
Reserve team seems cursed since Warren Joyce was fired when United had the best youth system in the league and had recently won the tournament and was among the top of the league table as well.
Mourinho wanted to rework the youth system to play his sort of football, so they fired the coaches, which was a horrible decision. We dropped out of the top youth division entirely last time I looked.
I doubt Joyce would come back even if we asked.
Warren Joyce wasn't sacked but he left to manage the first team at Wigan, which was a step up for him and a opportunity he couldn't turn down.Reserve team seems cursed since Warren Joyce was fired when United had the best youth system in the league and had recently won the tournament and was among the top of the league table as well.
Mourinho wanted to rework the youth system to play his sort of football, so they fired the coaches, which was a horrible decision. We dropped out of the top youth division entirely last time I looked.
I doubt Joyce would come back even if we asked.
I expect I read about him wanting the youth teams to play his more defensive style, with 3 in midfield, on here. I looked online but I didn't find anything, so it may have been a rumor.Warren Joyce wasn't sacked but he left to manage the first team at Wigan, which was a step up for him and a opportunity he couldn't turn down.
Also it's news to me about Mourinho wanting the youth teams to rework his 'sort of football' which was to attempt to control the game without the ball. We've encouraged youngsters to express themselves at youth level whilst coaching the collective to impose their game on the opponent with the ball. No one with a modicum of football intelligence would burden the development teams with Mourinho's reactive dated methods.
Joyce is highly appreciated at United but I think United have placed their faith in Travis Binnion for now, who got one over Joyce in the FA Youth Cup final.I expect I read about him wanting the youth teams to play his more defensive style, with 3 in midfield, on here. I looked online but I didn't find anything, so it may have been a rumor.
I don't know how I missed the quotes about him wanting to leave, I was obviously under the impression he would have preferred to stay. We've certainly missed him, perhaps he would come back.
The article you’ve quoted yourself has insinuated it wasn’t really done for footballing reasons. Fans had literally stormed Old Trafford 2 months before - the club felt they couldn’t let him join City. The backlash on here and Twitter on that day when news broke he was going there was insane and like I’ve ever seen before.I don't believe it was the company line Ole was pedalling. Because The Times also reported about Ole ignoring the advice of his coaching staff to push ahead with a move for Ronaldo.
So that's two reputable sources who reported similar. Fergie did aid Ole in signing Ronaldo, but the buck stops with the manager whose decision it was to sign the player. I'm yet to find any evidence that Ronaldo wasn't a signing Solskjaer pushed for.
All the info i've come across regarding Ronaldo was that the decision to sign him was left to Solskjaer. Jonathan Northcroft in his recent Times column stated that Solksjaer regretted sanctioning the Ronaldo signing. I do agree that Mendes was offering Ronaldo around and United made Solskjaer aware of that, but the reports do suggest that the decision to sign Ronaldo was left to Ole.The article you’ve quoted yourself has insinuated it wasn’t really done for footballing reasons. Fans had literally stormed Old Trafford 2 months before - the club felt they couldn’t let him join City. The backlash on here and Twitter on that day when news broke he was going there was insane and like I’ve ever seen before.
I don't believe it was the company line Ole was pedalling. Because The Times also reported about Ole ignoring the advice of his coaching staff to push ahead with a move for Ronaldo.
So that's two reputable sources who reported similar. Fergie did aid Ole in signing Ronaldo, but the buck stops with the manager whose decision it was to sign the player. I'm yet to find any evidence that Ronaldo wasn't a signing Solskjaer pushed for.
The pressure from the CEO / Board and a legend as prominent as SAF would far outweigh the input of the coaches sadly.
Mourinho wanted to rework the youth system to play his sort of football,
