The general attitude of our players

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Mickson said:
They all have that because Klopp demands that and has done so for years. The jury is still out on Rangnick but Ole didn't demand that, he gave the players too much freedom.
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Except for Ronaldo and Varane, what have others achived as footballers? Who are they to not respect Ralf or any other manager for that matter?
 
ayushreddevil9 said:
Except for Ronaldo and Varane, what have others achived as footballers? Who are they to not respect Ralf or any other manager for that matter?
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If they don't listen to Ralf in March, I'd be worried. As I said, Ole GAVE them freedom and of course, they won't protest against that as I think all attacking players, and players overall, like to freestyle a bit.
 
ayushreddevil9 said:
Except for Ronaldo and Varane, what have others achived as footballers? Who are they to not respect Ralf or any other manager for that matter?
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I actually think Ronaldo, Varane, Cavani are the least likely to not respect Ralph. They''re winners and understand what it takes, the ones that won't respect the manager are ones that haven't achieved anything. They have a cushy job and don't want something to threaten it.
 
Mickson said:
If they don't listen to Ralf in March, I'd be worried. As I said, Ole GAVE them freedom and of course, they won't protest against that as I think all attacking players, and players overall, like to freestyle a bit.
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In that case, this will be the only bunch that will make Pep look like a Sunday league manager.
 
Ixion said:
Also there was a similar report from the Liverpool camp after Klopp joined about later training sessions leaving players "depressed"

https://www.independent.ie/sport/so...-klopps-training-methods-report-35486597.html
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Well, they went on to win the league and champions league, so the "depression" was definitely worth it.

I want RR to work our players even harder.
He should tell them that if this lethargic, apathetic style of play continues, those players will be replaced.
I'd be quite happy to start introducing youth players to the team with the instruction that some first teamers are unable to raise their physicality, hence many positions in the team are up for grabs to U23 and U18 players who are prepared to put in serious effort to help take this club back to the top.
 
Ixion said:
I actually think Ronaldo, Varane, Cavani are the least likely to not respect Ralph. They''re winners and understand what it takes, the ones that won't respect the manager are ones that haven't achieved anything. They have a cushy job and don't want something to threaten it.
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None of them are winners and the fat paychecks we keep handing them for "potential" is a huge problem.
 
ayushreddevil9 said:
Just hop onto to one of the gazillion ole threads created to spread positivity about his tenure here.
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But wasn't it mostly about how likeable Ole was rather than how likeable the likes of Maguire, Shaw, and Bruno were? Whatever the case, this current group is among the most uninspiring I've ever seen in any team sport.
 
ForeverRed1 said:
they’re so weak mentally it’s crazy, these guys are top top athletes. A new manager has come in and they genuinely look like they don’t give a feck. Can’t see anyone killing themselves to impress him.

the younger lads are scared to shoot because Ronaldo waves his hands at them as if you say why didn’t you pass to me? Your telling me Rashford, Greenwood and sancho score as few as they have if he wasn’t there? I’m not so sure.

there was a point on Monday were rashford slightly over hit a pass and ronnie gave him a death stare, some people liked it.. but I can’t help but wonder if the younger players are slightly intimidated and scared to make mistakes.

would Rashford, sancho and Greenwood be firing more without him on the team or does he make us better? I’m not sure. The heads have dropped more so with him in the team. These guys are all 20/30 goals a season players and something is massively off the in the club.
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I appreciate the point you're making about Ronaldo, and there probably is some truth to it, but it just makes me feel more depressed about the state of the club and modern footballers.

A guy like Ronaldo coming in should push you and make you demand more of yourself, not put your nose out of place and go crying to your mum/agent because he gives you a bollocking every now and then. This used to be the norm, the class of '92 are always talking about the often brutal treatment they got from the older pros and how it made them who they are. Even Beckham, who is often seen as a bit of a tart because of his hairstyles and celebrity lifestyle, was a machine on the pitch! He'd run though brick walls and took shit from no one.

I know things have changed, and some of the dressing room antics and 'hazing' should rightfully be consigned to the past, but perhaps there was a good reason the kids had to clean the boots and pick up the used training gear for the older pros...this team really seems to lack humility.
 
MrBest said:
Hard to drop Maguire right now, i think Lindeloff has covid and Bailey is gping AFCON. I think that leaves us Jones and Mengi. Any other circumstance, i think would be a great idea.
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I did hear that Baily was called back from the airport
 
Ixion said:
Surprises me when posters on here and elsewhere act incredulous if you suggest the squad isn't good enough to win the league. Haven't won a trophy in 3-4 years, haven't been in a title race, haven't gotten to the Semi-Finals of the CL...but its nothing to do with the quality of players.
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To win big trophies, you need to have a few Galacticos, surrounded by competent (not necessarily flashy names).
You can't have a team of 11 players, all Galactico class and I think that we have that combination to win the biggest trophies, but our problem is a lack of effort and desire.
Man for man we are better than Norwich and Newcastle, yet in both those games, we were outworked and more than matched.
The players need to be encouraged or even forced to work harder and get some decent wins under their belt. This will raise confidence and morale, which will give us even better results.
 
ayushreddevil9 said:
Except for Ronaldo and Varane, what have others achived as footballers? Who are they to not respect Ralf or any other manager for that matter?
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Bet those two are not moaning about later training. They will have trained in the evening at times while at Madrid, so late afternoon training will not bother them. Agree about most of our players are not in a position to chose who they should respect.
 
ForeverRed1 said:
would Rashford, sancho and Greenwood be firing more without him on the team or does he make us better? I’m not sure. The heads have dropped more so with him in the team. These guys are all 20/30 goals a season players and something is massively off the in the club.
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Ronaldo has single-handedly dragged us in the next round of the CL.
He has, without doubt, proven that he is one of the best finishers on the planet.
Sancho and Rashford both need to learn that to play with the GOAT, they have to perform to the highest level.
Rashford has now been consistently poor and should be benched.

Ronaldo is the only player in our team who has won everything and knows what it takes to win the biggest trophies. He is absolutely the guy we need in our team, to drag our standards higher.
 
Deery said:
Don’t think any of those guys have ever scored 30 goals a season, I think that’s part of the problem Rashford acts like a 40 goal a season guy but he’s levels below.
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i meant overall goal contribution so goals + assists. I think all three could/should be
 
For the short term, we definitely need a better mix of more youth team players like Elanga, Mejbri, Garner, Iqbal et al together with the older first team. We need more players not on megabucks who are willing to prove themselves on the pitch, rather than off it. I know they aren't as good in quality, but at least they'll give a feck.

Longer term, we need to ship the old boys out. I am glad its starting with Pogba, Lingard and Martial. More to come please.
 
sunama said:
Ronaldo has single-handedly dragged us in the next round of the CL.
He has, without doubt, proven that he is one of the best finishers on the planet.
Sancho and Rashford both need to learn that to play with the GOAT, they have to perform to the highest level.
Rashford has now been consistently poor and should be benched.

Ronaldo is the only player in our team who has won everything and knows what it takes to win the biggest trophies. He is absolutely the guy we need in our team, to drag our standards higher.
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possibly. But it’s affected our overall play and guess it will until we’re on par with him. Not a bad thing long term I guess?
 
ForeverRed1 said:
possibly. But it’s affected our overall play and guess it will until we’re on par with him. Not a bad thing long term I guess?
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Exactly. You cannot look at any player in isolation and judge their impact on a team based purely on their personal stats. Ronaldo has caused all sorts of issue with the way we play and how other players are productive in the systems we use.

If playing with Ronaldo nets you 60 goals in a season and he scores 40 of them, that doesn't matter if you would have scored 70 without him. Hes still a net detriment to the team. He takes too many shot from awful angles and doesn't complement the other players in the team. In the right team he would be banging in the goals and wouldn't negatively effect the squad but United are not that team.

I can't help but feel that Rangnick would probably drop him if he was allowed but I would be amazed if there are not orders from above that make his name the first on the team sheet.
 
mctrials23 said:
Exactly. You cannot look at any player in isolation and judge their impact on a team based purely on their personal stats. Ronaldo has caused all sorts of issue with the way we play and how other players are productive in the systems we use.

If playing with Ronaldo nets you 60 goals in a season and he scores 40 of them, that doesn't matter if you would have scored 70 without him. Hes still a net detriment to the team. He takes too many shot from awful angles and doesn't complement the other players in the team. In the right team he would be banging in the goals and wouldn't negatively effect the squad but United are not that team.

I can't help but feel that Rangnick would probably drop him if he was allowed but I would be amazed if there are not orders from above that make his name the first on the team sheet.
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I agree with all of this and it pains me because it’s Ronaldo!!! I’m just not getting team player vibes from him and thats what we need right now, we need plays to be a team. We need coercive football, we have all these attacking talents and there not scoring. Not assisting. They look scared out there.
The only guy scoring is Ronaldo and not enough for us to be where we need to be.

no one can tell me that 27 goals with the players we have is ok? Something ain’t right and I feel like if we didn’t have him we’d be seeing some break through seasons right now.
 
Even De Gea who’s on course to be our player of the season comes across as miserable. That dressing room must be like group therapy.
 
It was explained some years ago how Woodward's narcissistic tendency to overpay and to bring in narcissists like himself would lead to this, in particular the covert desperation that leads to posturing and the problems that in turn creates.

Protip: Narcissism has very little to do with the bratty/me-me thing most people think of it as. Those are extreme cases; think of them like a very large wart or a huge tumor that anyone can see. The vast majority of narcissists that one has to worry about are usually quite popular, very adept at using social leverage to get more people to 'like' them. They want to elevate themselves - through force or education etc. - to a position where they can reinforce their self-image via others and, crucially, be in a position to belittle others, as this also serves that primary drive of self-image reinforcement.

Again, one of the easier ways to spot one is that they'll be 'magnanimous' to people who kiss up to them, cultivate a benevolent image (note that they're of 'higher' social status in this construct; this is absolutely crucial) but also routinely engage in belittling behavior - i.e. even something as 'innocuous' as calling others 'twats' - but done routinely, and always coupled with that 'I'm in a position to do so' element, or behavior such as indirectly dissing their club - and then have their cultivated acolytes defend them. This "benevolent/'higher status' figure who has to put up with the twats" behavior is one of the easier signs to spot.

It happens everywhere, but in an 'elite-level' organization, you run into several particular foibles stemming off from their drive to say the right/popular thing whilst in reality their main drive is only that self-image reinforcement. One of the main foibles in such an environment is that these people are 99.9999% of the time less-capable than their would-be peers. To the average person, it's "oh wow, that person's way smarter than me/a financial wizard surely (s)he belongs at the top." But to the actual people at the top, these people are painfully clearly recognizable as second-rate or just that one tiny-but-important smidgen short of first-rate.

A good majority of the time, they simply can't get in due to this. But if one ever does manage to get into an elite organization - such as in Woodward/Pogba's case - it can cause issues like we're seeing now.

Anyways, tl;dr, it's impossible to create an environment where it's "a privilege to play for the club" when you overpay. This poisons even those with the proper mentality, steering them towards 'everyone else is doing it, feck it.'

Posted years ago about how De Gea's contract was quite possibly the result of a dressing-room culture war with De Gea feeling a need to 'unseat' Pogba as top-earner to try and steer the club mentality in a better direction. (Yes, it's a messed-up position for someone to have to be in, to want to stand up for what's right, but then paradoxically having to 'make more money' to try and quell the bad influence of a posturing non-alpha. Remember, narcissists use their 'higher status' in subtly negative ways. 'Normal' people don't think like this and particularly don't like the negative aspects, and have a hard time dealing with it as a result.)
 
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hungrywing said:
It was explained some years ago how Woodward's narcissistic tendency to overpay and to bring in narcissists like himself would lead to this, in particular the covert desperation that leads to posturing and the problems that in turn creates.

Protip: Narcissism has very little to do with the bratty/me-me thing most people think of it as. Those are extreme cases; think of them like a very large wart or a huge tumor that anyone can see. The vast majority of narcissists that one has to worry about are usually quite popular, very adept at using social leverage to get more people to 'like' them. They want to elevate themselves - through force or education etc. - to a position where they can reinforce their self-image via others and, crucially, be in a position to belittle others, as this also serves that primary drive of self-image reinforcement.

Again, one of the easier ways to spot one is that they'll be 'magnanimous' to people who kiss up to them, cultivate a benevolent image (note that they're of 'higher' social status in this construct; this is absolutely crucial) but also routinely engage in belittling behavior - i.e. even something as 'innocuous' as calling others 'twats' - but done routinely, and always coupled with that 'I'm in a position to do so' element, or behavior such as indirectly dissing their club - and then have their cultivated acolytes defend them. This "benevolent/'higher status' figure who has to put up with the twats" behavior is one of the easier signs to spot.

It happens everywhere, but in an 'elite-level' organization, you run into several particular foibles stemming off from their drive to say the right/popular thing whilst in reality their main drive is only that self-image reinforcement. One of the main foibles in such an environment is that these people are 99.9999% of the time less-capable than their would-be peers. To the average person, it's "oh wow, that person's way smarter than me/a financial wizard surely (s)he belongs at the top." But to the actual people at the top, these people are clearly recognizable as second-rate.

A good majority of the time, they simply can't get in due to this. But if one ever does manage to get into an elite organization - such as in Woodward/Pogba's case - it can cause issues like we're seeing now.

Anyways, tl;dr, it's impossible to create an environment where it's "a privilege to play for the club" when you overpay. This poisons even those with the proper mentality, steering them towards 'everyone else is doing it, feck it.'

Posted years ago about how De Gea's contract was quite possibly the result of a dressing-room culture war with De Gea feeling a need to 'unseat' Pogba as top-earner to try and steer the club mentality in a better direction. (Yes, it's a messed-up position for someone to have to be in, to want to stand up for what's right, but then paradoxically having to 'make more money' to try and quell the bad influence of a posturing non-alpha. Remember, narcissists use their 'higher status' in subtly negative ways. 'Normal' people don't think like this and particularly don't like the negative aspects, and have a hard time dealing with it as a result.)
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Most of your post is great, but the bolded doesn't follow from it, doesn't seem related, and is empirically untrue. We can simply agree to disagree, but there are plenty of overpaid individuals in many jobs who absolutely feel privileged and do their best.
 
I know he is useless as a striker at the moment, but you can see why RR likes him, Timo Werner. He works his socks off. Ralf must be tearing his hair out watching our players just standing there waving their arms about when they lose the ball. The lack of work rate from them puts immense pressure on the midfield who try hard, but are not talented enough and the defence. As though they think it is above them to track back and help their teammates. The only one who should be left up front is Ronaldo, the rest need to put more effort in.
 
owlo said:
Most of your post is great, but the bolded doesn't follow from it, doesn't seem related, and is empirically untrue. We can simply agree to disagree, but there are plenty of overpaid individuals in many jobs who absolutely feel privileged and do their best.
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Hmm. I did remove 'pretty much nearly' from before the 'impossible'.

Now that you've mentioned it though, I think it could partially be a matter of the definition of overpaying. Within any particular individual, what you pointed out can be and often is true of course, but across a group, where some 'tipping-point' amount of individuals is overpaid disproportionate to ability, then I think it becomes impossible to create the proper atmosphere.

Again, all of this stems from Woodward. It's hard to find cases like this within self-contained organizations, since most of the time everyone's paid 'market value' and thus the degree of overpayment-incompetence is never so bad.

Thanks for pointing that out. Some food for thought I should chew on.
 
VP89 said:
This
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They are largely overpaid and overindulged players who know that the vast majority of power lies in their hands. Whether their behaviour is merited or not is by the by.

Its still far too early to say how the players will react long term to Rangnick or his replacement but its strange how we saw such a different display in his first game in charge and since then its basically reverted to peak Ole in almost every way.
 
sunama said:
Well, they went on to win the league and champions league, so the "depression" was definitely worth it.

I want RR to work our players even harder.
He should tell them that if this lethargic, apathetic style of play continues, those players will be replaced.
I'd be quite happy to start introducing youth players to the team with the instruction that some first teamers are unable to raise their physicality, hence many positions in the team are up for grabs to U23 and U18 players who are prepared to put in serious effort to help take this club back to the top.
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Not sure you can say “they” since half those lot had been shipped out by the team they won the league - and that maybe be what Ralf or his successor needs to do here.

I just hope we don’t blow our next rebuild like LVG did by bringing in utter shit, saddling us for another five to ten years.

Fortunately we can’t do what LVG did and sell all our experienced, title winning players at reduced rates because we don’t really have many left.
 
sugar_kane said:
I just hope we don’t blow our next rebuild like LVG did by bringing in utter shit, saddling us for another five to ten years.

Fortunately we can’t do what LVG did and sell all our experienced, title winning players at reduced rates because we don’t really have many left.
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For all his experience I suspect LVG bought into Woodward's Disneyland bullshit and wanting to sign Galacticos, even Ole who was not going to go that way eventually did. Hopefully with Ed on the way out it can be a thing of the past.
 
Gonna go against the grain here, but if the players are happier with earlier sessions and it allows them to perform then why not just do earlier sessions and create a happy atmosphere? You dont need to change every single thing just for the sake of changing and stamping authority.
 
hungrywing said:
Hmm. I did remove 'pretty much nearly' from before the 'impossible'.

Now that you've mentioned it though, I think it could partially be a matter of the definition of overpaying. Within any particular individual, what you pointed out can be and often is true of course, but across a group, where some 'tipping-point' amount of individuals is overpaid disproportionate to ability, then I think it becomes impossible to create the proper atmosphere.

Again, all of this stems from Woodward. It's hard to find cases like this within self-contained organizations, since most of the time everyone's paid 'market value' and thus the degree of overpayment-incompetence is never so bad.

Thanks for pointing that out. Some food for thought I should chew on.
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I'd kinda agree there. There are some individuals for who the motivation is clearly to be the best and for whom pay is a nice bonus (which they enjoy but it doesn't drive them) like a top surgeon, Elon Musk, or dare I say CR7 (deliberately picked a disparate range there as well as including a gigantic bellend). The problem often becomes when the culture of an organisation is driven by renumeration. Which is fine in an investment bank or hedge fund, but not really at a football club. It's an interesting theory though, that Woodward (and likely Ole) incentivised targets purely through pay, and thereby removed the motivation to 'be the best' which is generally naturally quite strong in footballers. This, as well as recruiting those that were happy with their lot to the extent they see no need to improve further (Maguire, AWB, Pogba etc)... Perhaps if we are no longer seen as the 'pinnacle' our players would be more motivated, though we'd still need the correct personalities.
 
Relevated said:
Gonna go against the grain here, but if the players are happier with earlier sessions and it allows them to perform then why not just do earlier sessions and create a happy atmosphere? You dont need to change every single thing just for the sake of changing and stamping authority.
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The idea is to run training sessions at the same time as games so everything is in sync. And the way they have played this season I don't think the earlier sessions are allowing them to perform, we cant really point at anything and say that is working, Ralf can try anything he likes as far as I'm concerned.
 
redmanx said:
Nobody is a greater admirer and fan of SAF than me; he gave me back the Manchester United I had loved for decades and for that alone he will always be the GOAT to me; but times have changed since his day; players have changed too, with social media making them almost untouchable and beyond critiscism, in their eyes. I recently saw the United Pod Cast with SAF in which he admits he would have had a hard time accepting the power players have today. Sadly, this "player power" has taken hold in United more than other club as certain players believe they have the right to wear the shirt without applying effort and hard graft and that medals and silverware are theirs by right too, and when they dont get what they feel they deserve they whine and act like wounded prima donnas. This was never "the United way" but I have the horrible feeling it will be so for some time yet.
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Rangnick's situation is not that different to what a young SAF fount when he joined us. Back then we had a team who had the talent to succeed but lacked the attitude to do that. SAF had risked lost the dressing room at least 3 times during his career. He did that when he first joined us, when Ince, Kanchelskis, Hughes and Gillespie left and the circus Keane created which was followed by his departure.

The secret to that is all the same

a- get rid of the rotten apples quickly
b- be careful what you sign. As Rangnick said, our preference should be on players on their 1st-2nd contract.
 
Relevated said:
Gonna go against the grain here, but if the players are happier with earlier sessions and it allows them to perform then why not just do earlier sessions and create a happy atmosphere? You dont need to change every single thing just for the sake of changing and stamping authority.
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We did this under Ole and we all know how that worked out.

We should stop pandering to this group of wasters. They should get in line or get out.
 
Relevated said:
Gonna go against the grain here, but if the players are happier with earlier sessions and it allows them to perform then why not just do earlier sessions and create a happy atmosphere? You dont need to change every single thing just for the sake of changing and stamping authority.
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If you can't do something as simply as making training a little later without putting players noses out of joint then thats just a massive indication that you have a toxic bunch of players that need putting back in their box.

My partner works for the NHS and moves jobs reasonably frequently as a result. The difference in entitlement between trusts and hospitals is quite mind boggling and it all stems from management and how much the staff are allowed to get away with. Over time, peoples baseline of acceptable behaviour changes depending on what they are allowed to do. Adults aren't that different to children and PL footballers are closer to children than most people I would wager. The longer you leave it and the more entrenched that culture becomes, the harder it is to remove.

We know that children with no boundaries are not happy and don't achieve so why would it be any different in adults.

Hopefully this is just a load of bollocks but if it isn't. Wow.

I do wonder how much of a shock it is for new managers when they come to United. How often they are amazed at how amateurish we are for being one of the richest clubs in the world.
 
The club is coming to a crossroads now and there is going to be fireworks come the summer. This isn’t about Ralf, what these leaks show is that any manager we had taken after Ole would have the same issues, including Conte. We need to understand the horrendous state the previous regime and the people at the top, have left this club in. Disgustingly pampered players, with overinflated egos, overinflated transfer fees and being paid overinflated wages that don’t reflect their ability. Absolutely no accountability for mistakes, awful performances from them or comments they’ve made in the press over multiple seasons now. No respect for the club or this new manager with constant leaks from the dressing room, no leadership amongst the lot of them, Maguire is absolute joke of a captain with zero leadership qualities. They’re whining because all of a sudden they have to do training sessions in the afternoon? Well boo fecking hoo. Crying because an actual manager comes in who wants to do more than high fives and vibes and actually implement a structure so they have to get off their lazy self entitled asses and put in the work. I’m disgusted with these players and the whole lot of them need to go in the summer, i want Ralf to drop a lot of them and play youngsters, genuinely don’t care at this point if we get relegated because these players need to be taught a damn lesson and they need to be humbled in a big way

Other things to mention, why is our damn Technical Director Darren Fletcher barking orders from the bench, that isn’t a Technical Director, and he has absolutely zero credentials to be a bloody coach and such, its irrationally annoying me

Dont offer Lingard a new contract, take the contract for Pogba off the table, get rid of most of these crappy social media players and get some actual talented grafters who want to play for the damn shirt and get rid of these primadonnas, including Rashford, making people apologise if they dare to question his commitments outside of football which are clearly affecting his game, its so pathetic. I’d absolutely get rid of Maguire as well, not good enough, never good enough, get rid.

God we are an embarassment of a club, i hope Ralf tells Murtough etc just how absolutely awful this lot are, we are never going to get back anywhere near the top because the mentality of these players is the worst ive ever seen at a football club
 
We'll need a real clear out this time and no one should be protected from it if they don't seem up to working hard to improve in the next few months.
 
I will go back and back to the fact too many of these players have been told they are world class and they believe it. The have made it. They need bringing back down to earth with a massive bump. Some of these players should be working hard to become world class, but they don't need to because in their heads they are already.
 
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