What do you have against the proposed format?
New ideas may or may not work brilliantly but if we don't try, we won't know. These drafts won't remain popular if the regulars get bored with them.
The Fourth RedCafe Sheep Draft
- Thread starter The Stain
- Start date
What do you have against the proposed format?
New ideas may or may not work brilliantly but if we don't try, we won't know. These drafts won't remain popular if the regulars get bored with them.
Agreed. It freshens things up if nothing else. Personally I'm fairly happy with the traditional match format with my only real gripe being the constant delays and reschedules. This is well worth a try though.
I'm fine with it for drafts with relatively fresh pools, i.e. where there's a chance that the discussions will offer something new.
For all-time pools and whatnot I'd rather see some experimenting. Nobody's that interested in hearing why and/or why not Messadona works well in a 4-3-3 yet again.
We will do this.
No X vs. Y, just the top 8 and bottom 8 in different gamethreads were people vote for the four best teams.
Again, we may have managers feeling like they leave empty handed having not played a "proper match" but the entire point was having a fun draft and also trying new formats to cut down on games.
For better or worse we will learn from it.
Now, the final 8, prepare to get roasted with the reinforcement mechanics
I think the original idea with matchups was better personally. In this way you have some kind of tactical play and actual game in which your team can and will participate. Drawing better and worse teams together is how football works really. So even if you didn't draft the best team from the off you can still bounce back in reinforcements round.
I really liked the original idea with two threads and 4 games each.
I agree with Moby. Matchups favor showcasing some tactical approach and more balanced teams going forward rather than shoving GOATs and sheep at the same time.
Besides voting for winning a tie is much more straightforward approach for voters and also for the mods rather than comparing 8 teams at the same time.
8 might be a lot for a group stage but I was liking the idea of comparing say 4-5 teams in a group stage which is different criteria. More about which team would perform the best over several matches against each opponent. More involved thought process, but I like it because it emulates real touraments now like World Cup and Champions League with group stage and then knockout.
Its a fun but slightly different way to evaluate teams so perhaps one team doesn't get screwed because by chance they get paired against their nemesis first match. Sometimes with jsut straight knockout two strong teams can get matched first round and its sad to see either lose so early.
Yeah 3 matchups in group is a good idea and I'm all up for it but imo we should've done that before the cut with 20 teams, although with 16 is not a bad idea. Still I think there will be a lot of work for the mods and voters to set it up and follow not 8 hypothetical games but 24?
Removing matchup takes away the still actually fun part of creating a formation and tactic to neutralize or beat your opponent than just post a formation and general layout. Just my thoughts on this
Same. I hate the way they always drag out which I guess is because they last 24 hours and that is a lot of time to dedicate to a game. If they were shorter I think people would be able to fit them in the schedule better. Out of those 24 hours you are asleep or away 14+ anyhow so we may as well play a shorter but more intense game.
I know myself as a voter and those 24 hour deadlines is my biggest reason for not to get involved and vote as you wait for discussion thinking you'll make it back in time and then you forget about it or come back just too late. I know most people vote late on purpose so we wouldn't lose a lot of votes anyhow.
If everybody can follow this draft with 3 deadlines per day then we can certainly do it.
Yeah 3 matchups in group is a good idea and I'm all up for it but imo we should've done that before the cut with 20 teams, although with 16 is not a bad idea. Still I think there will be a lot of work for the mods and voters to set it up and follow not 8 hypothetical games but 24?
Removing matchup takes away the still actually fun part of creating a formation and tactic to neutralize or beat your opponent than just post a formation and general layout. Just my thoughts on this
Yeah I just posted my group idea in next Draft thread. But that 4 groups of 5 idea came to me a little too late for this draft.
Yeah, great. There is also a lot of time to iron it out in the thread as we're long way still to finish this one.
Showcasing a tactical approach is rarely what happens. One-on-one «battles» is much closer to the norm.
Besides, you get standard matches in the next round. Variety can't be a bad thing.
One-on-one is not bad in a sheep draft tho. If you have to field one or you missed to reinforce a position and could possibly need to do a tactical change not to get exposed. This is the interesting part of games. For example I thought harms did a great job masking that LB position he's lacking with the Chelsea formation.
After the reinforcement that part of the draft is gone as most likely all teams won't need to field a sheep or would've reinforced the position they are lacking.
That's my thoughts on the matter, but will leave it out to the guys running it. I'm ok either way.
Now you'll never see O'shea and Neuer swapping between CB and GK. Talk about showcasing!
I've nonproblem with the 8 teams in one thread idea but I don't get what we're gaining from not having it as a shootout between the 2 teams?
Apparently people want to have a tournament but don't want to see any matches...
Apparently people want to have a tournament but don't want to see any matches...
To me its about trying different ideas.
The World Cup and Champions League have group stages. Are they not tournaments because its not all knock out matches?
The way I see the group stage is collecting multiple matches into one easier thread for a different dynamic. How would your team perform against several different teams in a group stage is a different question to answer.
Group stages only have more matches. 
And we tried that here in drafts like 5 years back. Failed massively.
And we tried that here in drafts like 5 years back. Failed massively.
Yeah I could see that working with 4 teams in a group but with 8 it's just going to be who has got the strongest 11. If we wanted to go with the 8 strongest teams why not just do that at the same time we cut the last 4?
Group stages only have more matches.
And we tried that here in drafts like 5 years back. Failed massively.
It could work as a group stage thread though. 4 teams top 2 go through. I just think with 8 teams people won't look at it that way and will just look for the strongest teams.
Wasn't the same format.
Anyway, I'm tired of the matches in general - so, yes: I want a tournament with less matches. This goes doubly for drafts with well known players.
I fail to see what we could possibly lose by trying this out for the initial round. It will revert to standard for the q-f stage.
If people really think 8 match threads featuring GOATs and the odd sheep is greatly interesting, then so be it. I disagree strongly.
I concur.
Well yeah. Went from individual matches to having 8 teams in a thread all against each other. Why not all 16 in one go?
This is why I chuckled at it being any 'fun' lol, its simply about people being bored or not being arsed about a full tournament and fast forwarding in which case the tournament should be scrapped. If this is the consensus then this series of events will lead to that anyway.
You don't need a tournament to call a winner. In fact of all the forums I've played drafts in caf is the only one that wants a tournament in every draft.
Me and the draft master of this draft play drafts in another forum regularly and there at the end we simply vote for the 5 best teams out of whatever total teams there are and call the winner, the end. It works well.
This is why I chuckled at it being any 'fun' lol, its simply about people being bored or not being arsed about a full tournament and fast forwarding in which case the tournament should be scrapped. If this is the consensus then this series of events will lead to that anyway.
You don't need a tournament to call a winner. In fact of all the forums I've played drafts in caf is the only one that wants a tournament in every draft.
Me and the draft master of this draft play drafts in another forum regularly and there at the end we simply vote for the 5 best teams out of whatever total teams there are and call the winner, the end. It works well.
Why 8 match threads? 2 match threads with 8 options like the original plan. Much easier to handle, more neutrals to vote(not just those who participate) and straightforward rather than skimming through 8 team sheets that we already saw for the trimming round.
The decision making for the voter is also easier - outcome of a game, rather to pick 4 best teams out of 8.
It has been an extremely well run tournament. Let's not ruin it with being over zealous and rushing the competition.
Matches make a draft memorable, otherwise it's a research exercise. In a draft like this where players are well known.. the matches and finding a way of enhancing the experience is key, not eradicating the games altogether.
Matches make a draft memorable, otherwise it's a research exercise. In a draft like this where players are well known.. the matches and finding a way of enhancing the experience is key, not eradicating the games altogether.
Yeah I agree but taking people's concerns on board I'd go with the 4 matches in 1 thread idea. Means the first round of matches takes 2 days to complete instead of over a week and everyone will feel like they've played a match instead of just being voted out
Less threads is a separate thing and had no issue with having multiple matches in same thread. You still had a match up and something to talk about. Theres literally zilch to talk about when you are just putting numbers next to a list of line ups.
Maybe its new for you and this place but me and and a few others here already know well ho a ranking system works. It is the option you use when people playing the draft don't want the time and effort to get involved in a match and just want to call a winner.
In here though the culture is different and most people are prepared to give that effort needed for match ups when they sign up else they don't. Given that I can't see the rationale behind taking that experience away from those who want it. I've played drafts far longer than you and I have no problem whatsoever in deciding a draft with a simple ranking and no tournament whatsoever but there are 20 people involved and a lot of them are newer than us. And some older ones still want to have a match played with their team. Your Drafting also depends on whether there is a tournament or not as in ranking attacks normally matter more than other aspects with the lack of the 1v1s.
If the consensus is bored of tournaments then by all means scrap it but I don't think thats the case.
Maybe its new for you and this place but me and and a few others here already know well ho a ranking system works. It is the option you use when people playing the draft don't want the time and effort to get involved in a match and just want to call a winner.
In here though the culture is different and most people are prepared to give that effort needed for match ups when they sign up else they don't. Given that I can't see the rationale behind taking that experience away from those who want it. I've played drafts far longer than you and I have no problem whatsoever in deciding a draft with a simple ranking and no tournament whatsoever but there are 20 people involved and a lot of them are newer than us. And some older ones still want to have a match played with their team. Your Drafting also depends on whether there is a tournament or not as in ranking attacks normally matter more than other aspects with the lack of the 1v1s.
If the consensus is bored of tournaments then by all means scrap it but I don't think thats the case.
PLAYER PROFILES
Goalkeeper - Rene Higuita
2 times South American keeper of the year and one of the best goalies in South American history. He was most noted for his eccentric style of play and shot-stopping ability, nicknamed El Loco and El Antipenal (doesn't require an explanation). Perhaps only Neuer can be compared to him in terms of the sweeping qualities, the way he read the game and kept almost half of the pitch under his constant control was revolutionary and unique. His willingness to come forward allows me to play a more compact game with high baricentro.
Defender - Lilian Thuram
Equally impressive as a center and right back, Thuram is widely considered as one of the best defenders in history. Tough, smart, versatile - he is basically Maldini's equivalent on the right.
Defender - Nemanja Vidić
The final piece of our CL winning defence that he elevated on a whole different level with his arrival. One of the most dominant penalty box defenders in history.
Defender - Javier Zanetti
Inter's legendary captain and a holder of the unique record for most outfield player's appearances in history. He started as a right back but was just as impressive on the left or in central midfield; with his monstrous physique and all-round ability he has a claim to be considered as one of the most complete players ever.
Midfielder - Frank Rijkaard
The best defensive midfielder ever and a personalization of Dutch total football style. He proved himself in Sacchi's system, which basic rules I'm trying to implement in my team.
Midfielder - Paulo Roberto Falcão
Unique blend of Brazilian flair with efficiency, tactical understanding and work ethics, it's impossible to find a better partner for Rijkaard in a midfield two.
Left midfielder - Jesper Blomqvist
His career was ruined by injuries but he still managed to play for AC Milan and Manchester United (starting in 1999 final) and leave a good memory of his career.
Here's an example of his peak performance:
Right midfielder - Arda Turan
An integral part of Simeone's Atletico project, he somehow reminds me of Iniesta, who never was impressive statistically but always turned on in the biggest games. Here's what Sky Sport's expert says about him: “I’ve gone for a player (La Liga's player of the year - harms) who optimises Atletico Madrid. When Simeone came to the club Turan was a player who would often shine when the team played well. But when they didn’t play well at times you wouldn’t notice him. But he’s changed into a warrior under Simeone and at the same time retained that ability, skill and touch". Here's what Simeone himself said about him: “Arda is at a point where he knows he’s a game-changer and the team needs him. In the time he’s been with us, he’s grown defensively. He has a natural-born talent.”
Attacking midfielder - Luís Figo
The original Galacticos. After his departure, Barcelona went into a free fall, while Madrid capitalized on him and achieved European success they wanted so much. Everyone of you know how good he was, but what separated him from the rest was not his ability - it was his amazing mentality and leadership, he never was anxious and always played at 110%. Here I'll use him in a free role he thrived in after his move to Madrid. For Barca he was limited to a winger role under Van Gaal's rigid philosophy, but when he was given absolute freedom at Real he absolutely flourished.
Forward - Karl-Heinz Rummenigge
One of the most clinical and inventive finishers in football's history, he was quite simply a joy to watch. 2 times Ballon D'Or winner too. Lotthar Matthäus: "I've come up against Zico and Maradona, and I now know who’s the best player in the world: Karl-Heinz Rummenigge."
Striker - Patrick Kluivert
The Golden boy of the 90's Ajax, Kluivert had am amazing career, finishing it as his country's top scorer and a legend for Ajax and Barcelona. He wasn't an all-time phenomenon like Ronaldo or van Basten, but he was amazingly all-rounded - 6ft2, fast, strong, with a great leap, quick feet and great vision, he is an ideal candidate for leading the line. I would expect him to connect with Rummenigge in a similar fashion to his partnership with Rivaldo at Barcelona
Goalkeeper - Rene Higuita
2 times South American keeper of the year and one of the best goalies in South American history. He was most noted for his eccentric style of play and shot-stopping ability, nicknamed El Loco and El Antipenal (doesn't require an explanation). Perhaps only Neuer can be compared to him in terms of the sweeping qualities, the way he read the game and kept almost half of the pitch under his constant control was revolutionary and unique. His willingness to come forward allows me to play a more compact game with high baricentro.
Defender - Lilian Thuram
Equally impressive as a center and right back, Thuram is widely considered as one of the best defenders in history. Tough, smart, versatile - he is basically Maldini's equivalent on the right.
Defender - Nemanja Vidić
The final piece of our CL winning defence that he elevated on a whole different level with his arrival. One of the most dominant penalty box defenders in history.
Defender - Javier Zanetti
Inter's legendary captain and a holder of the unique record for most outfield player's appearances in history. He started as a right back but was just as impressive on the left or in central midfield; with his monstrous physique and all-round ability he has a claim to be considered as one of the most complete players ever.
Midfielder - Frank Rijkaard
The best defensive midfielder ever and a personalization of Dutch total football style. He proved himself in Sacchi's system, which basic rules I'm trying to implement in my team.
Midfielder - Paulo Roberto Falcão
Unique blend of Brazilian flair with efficiency, tactical understanding and work ethics, it's impossible to find a better partner for Rijkaard in a midfield two.
Left midfielder - Jesper Blomqvist
His career was ruined by injuries but he still managed to play for AC Milan and Manchester United (starting in 1999 final) and leave a good memory of his career.
Here's an example of his peak performance:
Right midfielder - Arda Turan
An integral part of Simeone's Atletico project, he somehow reminds me of Iniesta, who never was impressive statistically but always turned on in the biggest games. Here's what Sky Sport's expert says about him: “I’ve gone for a player (La Liga's player of the year - harms) who optimises Atletico Madrid. When Simeone came to the club Turan was a player who would often shine when the team played well. But when they didn’t play well at times you wouldn’t notice him. But he’s changed into a warrior under Simeone and at the same time retained that ability, skill and touch". Here's what Simeone himself said about him: “Arda is at a point where he knows he’s a game-changer and the team needs him. In the time he’s been with us, he’s grown defensively. He has a natural-born talent.”
Attacking midfielder - Luís Figo
The original Galacticos. After his departure, Barcelona went into a free fall, while Madrid capitalized on him and achieved European success they wanted so much. Everyone of you know how good he was, but what separated him from the rest was not his ability - it was his amazing mentality and leadership, he never was anxious and always played at 110%. Here I'll use him in a free role he thrived in after his move to Madrid. For Barca he was limited to a winger role under Van Gaal's rigid philosophy, but when he was given absolute freedom at Real he absolutely flourished.
Forward - Karl-Heinz Rummenigge
One of the most clinical and inventive finishers in football's history, he was quite simply a joy to watch. 2 times Ballon D'Or winner too. Lotthar Matthäus: "I've come up against Zico and Maradona, and I now know who’s the best player in the world: Karl-Heinz Rummenigge."
Striker - Patrick Kluivert
The Golden boy of the 90's Ajax, Kluivert had am amazing career, finishing it as his country's top scorer and a legend for Ajax and Barcelona. He wasn't an all-time phenomenon like Ronaldo or van Basten, but he was amazingly all-rounded - 6ft2, fast, strong, with a great leap, quick feet and great vision, he is an ideal candidate for leading the line. I would expect him to connect with Rummenigge in a similar fashion to his partnership with Rivaldo at Barcelona
What is happening in the end? Me and Skizzo vs Raees?
I like this too.
Same. Feck off with you and your great team, my first sentence in the write up was: Raees has a spectacular side without a single weak link.
That's no different from the standard format. It's just squeezed into one thread rather than split up in four.
If people genuinely think the format is great, there is no need to introduce this condensed version of it. It adds nothing significantly new to what we already have in place.
What onenil suggests above is not some sort of «ranking» which automatically kills all discussion. The questions would be - for instance - which teams are more versatile, better suited to facing different systems, less likely to become overly dependent on one star player, etc.
What you don't get to do is to slug it out with one particular opponent. If that is what people want more than anything, then sure - the proposed format will be of little interest.
I've said my piece, though. People clearly disagree somewhat on this. Can't please everyone, up to the draft masters to decide - I won't debate it any further.
Yeah, I was thinking yesterday it would have been better to do 4 groups of 5 with the Top 2 advancing and just go straight into QF instead of having that cull. Not 4 out of 5 though, much of a muchness and more likely the randomisation makes some of the worse teams get through and good ones out.
We tried group stages before, it doesn't work playing games, but could this way.
The way we laid it out, the idea was avoiding too much discussion and "tactical battling", with that left for QFs. Removing matchups makes it more likely it will work out that way.Removing matchup takes away the still actually fun part of creating a formation and tactic to neutralize or beat your opponent than just post a formation and general layout. Just my thoughts on this
It's not designed to be a fun way to play out the games, just a more efficient one than 8 separate games.
Then at QF the real match part begins.
In some forums there are no games at all, just rankings (very dull imo). This could be a good compromise.
I remember you not liking it back in your student days. I suppose you had the time for games then.
I think a more efficient cull system is worth looking into, without removing the 1v1, planning a game, upside from reinforcements, etc. entirely.
The issue would be time zone to some extent. That said limiting the match time to say 8hrs could be good. This could also aid with the occasional issue of an AM posting when the other manager is alseep.
I'm also liking OneNil's group stage idea. It's quite clever, gives some variety and stops a team being beaten because they've come up against the one team with a lightening quick striker.
IMO if we had to rank teams and get to the QF stage we should've done so in the trimming stage - rank the best 8 teams and scrap the 1/8 finals altogether.
Essentially now we will rank teamsheets two times in a row without even playing with your team or getting into possible formations in an actual game against opposition. That and of course having 8 more teams that would probably want to play a game eliminated.
The draft has been really great(one of the best I've participated in) and people really put an effort to draft their teams and going out to ranking without even getting a single reason why they are eliminated (like mazhar for example) feels really underwhelming.
It's for the time zones. We've had Jayvin from middleofnowhere, Australia and Skizzo from shithole, California (and probably most other timezones inbetween) and it's difficult to get them to contribute without a 16-18hrs deadline at least.
While true I don't think every match has to be played out as if the managers are half way across the world from each other. I'd bet that in 90% of the matches they'd find a scheduled time that suits the two. Just my opinion though but it is boring to play against a manager who isn't there until you go to sleep and when you wake up you know he's off to sleep/work already.
I've been the AM for Skizzo for a while and there is no issues there at all. The only time it would matter is if the person literally lives across the world and you both have a bad schedule in relation to each other.
R16 - Thread 1
@P-Nut0712
@Cal?
@RedTiger @Peyroteo
@Chesterlestreet
@Enigma_87
@Pat_Mustard
@Šjor Bepo
@DavidG
Change of plans. Rather than 4 matchups in each thread; it'll now be that voters will choose which 4 out the 8 they/you think will progress to the quarters. Threadmarks updated. Deadline to submit formation/writeup still 3 PM GMT tomorrow.