Carlton Palmer* FYI
The fanbase's role in the erosion of standards
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Yeah they don't give a feck, in 2010 the whole stadium was full of green and gold scarfs and banners for them to leave it took them until 2023/24 to sell and even then they didn't, the ownership at United couldn't give a toss about what the fans say.
Also further to this fans supporting team is an erosion of standards do me a favour, the fans support the team the managers and players have failed the fans have been largely the only performers in the club for the last 10 years
The truth is we're almost completely irrelevant now.
If people wanted the Glazers out we wouldn't have gone to any games, not watched anything, cancelled any tv subscriptions and stopping buying any United affiliated merchandise. Early on this would have absolutely killed them/the club but now with every year meaning there is less and less dependence on gate receipts, fans who go to games have almost no voice and fans online complaining probably make them even more money given how many clicks all these articles and social media sits get.
Ah, he belongs there! I thought you meant the penalty king.
I've come to realize that the fanbase has more to blame these days. I still see comments and posts all over social media claiming that EtH is being let down by players, let down by the transfer team, let down by injuries. feck all this shit, he is a crap manager with no tactics, just like all the crap ones before him. All over the world players seem to respect and pay heed to the managers, I've come to the conclusion that good managers get respected by players everywhere, there can be one or two rotten eggs but they get put in their place by other players if the manager is deemed good.
Don't get me started on the match going fans who still hanker for the days of SAF, it's gone, it's all in the past, it wont come back again no matter how long you give a manager these days. Bray for blood, vent your frustrations, walk out at half time, boo the crap out of them, you are all paying hundreds of hard earned pounds and let these managers and players get away with murder for the past 10 years. Just because you are all afraid of being called spoilt or lumped with the likes of Madrid fans, you are letting all this happen.
Don't get me started on the match going fans who still hanker for the days of SAF, it's gone, it's all in the past, it wont come back again no matter how long you give a manager these days. Bray for blood, vent your frustrations, walk out at half time, boo the crap out of them, you are all paying hundreds of hard earned pounds and let these managers and players get away with murder for the past 10 years. Just because you are all afraid of being called spoilt or lumped with the likes of Madrid fans, you are letting all this happen.
Just to add to this, Arteta has signed 25 players at Arsenal not including loans. We tried to do a big overhaul under LVG and then seem to have decided that big overhauls never work and we should only sign 3/4 players a year at most. Even in ETH's first window, it's reliably reported that prior to the Brentford mauling, the club were happy with just adding Malacia, Eriksen, and Licha.
What I never understood is why it would be a bad thing to be compared to the fans of the biggest club in the world (which Real Madrid is). Don't people wonder if there maybe is a causality why they have a cut-throat approach to their own team and win so many titles?
It's just to pretend that they are better fans than the "spoilt brats" Madrid fans. Why they would take pleasure in nonsense like that instead of watching good football is beyond me.
The amazing thing re Arteta, is immediately you think 'well how many of them are starters?' but they mostly are.
Arteta has signed: Mari, Soares, Willian, Gabriel, Runarsson, Partey, Odegaard, Tavares, Lokonga, White, Ramsdale, Tomiyasu, Trusty, Viera, Turner, Marquinhos, Jesus, Zinchenko, Trossard, Kiwior, Jorginho, Havertz, Timber, Rice, Raya.
Couldn't have said it better myself. Really mindboggling why they support whoever is doing stupid stuff in the pitch instead of actually wanting the best for the club.
If you're been on here during the last decade you'll know that the people offering blind support to failing managers changes each time. It's not a constant group that are eroding standards, more a new block of people who get carried away in supporting a manager for whatever reason.
Players get thrown under the bus quicker than managers which I've always felt is odd. If anyone needs the backing it's the players, they actually benefit from confidence. I've never heard of a 'confidence manager'. Lots of Ten Hag backers shit all over the players because for some reason sides need to be taken.
Players get thrown under the bus quicker than managers which I've always felt is odd. If anyone needs the backing it's the players, they actually benefit from confidence. I've never heard of a 'confidence manager'. Lots of Ten Hag backers shit all over the players because for some reason sides need to be taken.
We need a new approach to signing players, no manager in the world gets access to a full new squad to prove themselves. Our approach has always been to look at the manager as a constant, but in the modern age the players outlive the manager, you just have to look at the contract length, the players mostly get a 4 year, 5 year deal whereas the manager only gets a 2 or three year deal. Especially at a high paying club like us, its even more difficult to get rid off players quickly.
So no more of this rubbish about managers needing their "own" squad, you give them players and its upto them to make their tactics work. The moment a manager starts proving himself, he gets to stay longer, gets more say in transfers and eventually ends up with squad of their own players by staying at the club longer. This is the only approach that will work for us, if we try a Chelsea style wheeling-dealing then the only way is going down.
The traffic was murderHow on earth did it take you this long to figure that out
Exactly
Were Newcastle fans responsible for their decline and or rise?
To me it seems despite being very vocal they were only saved by a stroke of luck in a wealthy nation buying them without problems.
To me it seems despite being very vocal they were only saved by a stroke of luck in a wealthy nation buying them without problems.
Nah, that's just straw man on a straw man. You should be better than that.
The modern world is about results and results quickly, football in particular. Why is that the case? Because we've seen it done at our major competitors, like Real, City, Chelsea and Bayern.
And if you as a United fan think that spending big won't solve our issues, where have you been? That's how City did it.
We just spent too much on mediocre shite who feel entitled to overstay their welcome at the club because there is no external pressure from the fanbase.
And I got slaughtered a while back for saying FM should be banned
Heresy!And I got slaughtered a while back for saying FM should be banned
This is why Ten Hag's comments about him taking this "impossible" job and people supposedly telling him not to do it annoy me. 99.9% of managers can only dream of being put in the situation that he was. On top of that we have the most forgiving fanbase of all big clubs by far. If it was up to fans only he would stay for years to come. The Caf is a lot more critical than your average fan is, all other forums and online places are still very much ETH in.
All the straw men arguments in here about entitlement, FM, and Mbappe only serve to prove the OP right.
Everytime I’m in Old Trafford glazers get booed , chants against them. There’s even green and gold scarf protests since they joined. The supporters trusts go on and on about how they are absent owners and don’t engage fans in any meaningful way.
But you guys think fans booing managers and maybe waving scarves like Madrid fans would be just what sorts out our manager issues.
Well asides from the misguided thinking behind this, you forgot one major difference. The glazers don’t care what fans think and their ownership is never threatened . A Real Madrid president will be out in their ear very quickly if the club is under performing. Fans can actually put real pressure on Real Madrid presidents
United fans have zero say in the club affairs. A number of our fans had to invade the stadium and stop a Liverpool game to make a point shout the super league.
So only way fans can really influence things is trying to get new owners which is what they’ve been trying to do.
But you guys think fans booing managers and maybe waving scarves like Madrid fans would be just what sorts out our manager issues.
Well asides from the misguided thinking behind this, you forgot one major difference. The glazers don’t care what fans think and their ownership is never threatened . A Real Madrid president will be out in their ear very quickly if the club is under performing. Fans can actually put real pressure on Real Madrid presidents
United fans have zero say in the club affairs. A number of our fans had to invade the stadium and stop a Liverpool game to make a point shout the super league.
So only way fans can really influence things is trying to get new owners which is what they’ve been trying to do.
Yeah it’s definitely the white handkerchiefs that do it. Not the fact that they are a well run club in a league where they pull in a disproportionate amount of tv money to their competitors with no state run clubs to compete with, in an attractive city to live in.
Guess what; we spent big too. We just spent it on shit.
Massive l.o.l at this thread.
First of all, having a passive support is the end result of those initial massive price hikes post 2005. Generations of passionate fans were outpriced.
That being said, we've done more than most.
The Glazers had to send decoy cars/vans to the ground on the first night after they took over because hundreds of fans were roaming the streets essentially looking to "intercept".
We got the biggest game in the country cancelled in 2021.
Fans formed their own club in protest at their ownership.
There's very little fans can do in the UK to have a meaningful impact on how the club is run. Unless the government/FA brings in proper legislation, a clubs direction depends entirely on whether the owner can be arsed running it correctly.
Arguably only the scousers and the two Glasgow clubs have seen this level/scale of protest amongst the big clubs in the UK.
If it ever all goes wrong at city, I hope the "Manchester thanks you Sheikh Mansour" banner is thrown back at them forever.
First of all, having a passive support is the end result of those initial massive price hikes post 2005. Generations of passionate fans were outpriced.
That being said, we've done more than most.
The Glazers had to send decoy cars/vans to the ground on the first night after they took over because hundreds of fans were roaming the streets essentially looking to "intercept".
We got the biggest game in the country cancelled in 2021.
Fans formed their own club in protest at their ownership.
There's very little fans can do in the UK to have a meaningful impact on how the club is run. Unless the government/FA brings in proper legislation, a clubs direction depends entirely on whether the owner can be arsed running it correctly.
Arguably only the scousers and the two Glasgow clubs have seen this level/scale of protest amongst the big clubs in the UK.
If it ever all goes wrong at city, I hope the "Manchester thanks you Sheikh Mansour" banner is thrown back at them forever.
English fans in general are quite apathetic and unorganised. At least that’s my impression. Not just in United‘s case. But also regarding issues like City‘s cheating.
I guess that’s down to the fight against hooliganism some decades ago?
I guess that’s down to the fight against hooliganism some decades ago?
English fans are all customers
Dedicated German and (most) Spanish fans are club members (effectively "owners").
I think that makes a huge difference.
I liked that one as well. Funnily enough it sounds like something Agent Smith from the matrix might say.
So if people think Real Madrid are successful because their fanbase have high standards, boo club legends and wave white handkerchiefs does that mean United were successful for 20+ years because we had a patient fanbase that stood behind Fergie? They're successful because they've mostly been a well run club and have been able to comfortably outspend their rivals in La Liga (outside of Barca's crazy spending a few years ago)
And I honestly don't know where this myth that United fans are soft and don't boo managers/players has come from. I heard Sir Alex Ferguson get booed in the mid 2000s, LvG got some boos and I even recall some fans giving it to Mourinho too.
And I honestly don't know where this myth that United fans are soft and don't boo managers/players has come from. I heard Sir Alex Ferguson get booed in the mid 2000s, LvG got some boos and I even recall some fans giving it to Mourinho too.
Erm, try reading until the end next time.
United have needed a major overhaul for years. That means getting rid of so many players that have been around during the disaster years. Yet we are still giving Lindelof another year on his contract. Why? He wasn’t good enough when he was signed under Mourinho but managed to survive 2 more managers. Could say the same thing about half the squad.
Plus the fact the powers that be assume you have to spend £50m on every single player, can’t negotiate and don’t have the logic to get players in on free transfers or one year left on their contract. Even then they still managed to pay £55m for Mount.
I think there's a lot of truth in what you're saying but it's quite complex. There's definitely a problem with having to accommodate our "way" and I'm as guilty as anyone I suppose. I always had this anti-Jose mindset but when appointed I felt like I had to give him my 100% support.
In a wider sense I've got quite sickened in general with the whole business when the finances come into play, both in the wages and transfer fees areas and then the mind-bending sums agents get (I was just astonished, naively, when Pogba's agent got his cut; it wasn't a 2% or 3% commission that's for sure).
I remember going to games with my dad and it felt like we were a club rooted in the community. I don't feel that way now. Just examples like how we were late in acknowledging the women's game rubbed me up the wrong way because I feel like that wouldn't happen earlier.
Another gripe is how clubs can be affected or maybe even forced out of business due to these financial rules. When I look at Everton with points deducted, then appealed and then some of these people responsible might not be there or even alive it depresses me. How representative can a league be when it's affected by these factors?
I don't blame players for getting paid the most they can get but if they don't excite you then someone has got something very wrong. It's this aspect where the game has been divorced from reality and there's no mechanism to rebalance this.
There's no illusion though, we've always been a wealthy club and could always afford some expensive players - what is lacking now are the consequences of underperformance.
When I look at teams getting promoted I just think 'what's the point?' because there's a massive financial disparity.
We tend to look down at American football and their franchise system but I do think there are positive elements like the spending limits and 'any given Sunday' concept.
At the risk of sounding even more like a dinosaur I think social media has had an effect since it's quite common now for fans to 'support' an individual player and not so match the team so we had the Messi/Ronaldo GOAT banter; when I visited friends in the west bank there's a lot of interest in the big euro teams and the Madrid v Barcelona Derby.
I’m not a big fan of gambling either and I think that it's a pernicious influence long-term and it's hand in hand with the 'statification' of the game. Don't get me wrong, I know what data analysis can do, you'd probably laugh at me saying this if you knew what I do for a living but I think it removes the feeling of seeing and experiencing a moment of breathtaking skill from the beautiful game.
I've supported us through thick and thin for around 43 years now and I'm not going to change but I am actively stopping myself from giving them any more money if I can help it.
When I look back at some landmarks that stick in my mind, it's hard to reconcile for me. Like when we signed Andy Cole for a jaw-dropping £7mm and what, £7k a week? What would that deal look like today? It would probably be around £100mm and something around £300k to £500k per week overall depending on the signing on and other terms of the contract.
For what it's worth , I gave EtH a good amount of support but it's become evident he's toast, he'll be awaiting for the axe to get his severance but I don't have any constructive ideas about who will replace him.
When I see SJR running a marathon and getting to see the game and how that unfolded, I would love to hear his thoughts in private, it must be obvious we have some big problems with a lack of winning attitude.
Agreed. When SAF left, I thought I was being clever because I thought some form of mean reversion would happen. It seemed obvious to me that we weren't going to see lightning captured in a bottle again so be prepared for some painful performances over the next 3 or 4 years.
I’m not talking about the cafe though, this was in real life in the pubs in Salford and Manchester which had a sizeable crowd of reds.
I was getting told that it was people like me, being negative, that brings all the players and staff that would crush their motivation.
To be fair, I was estimating this weak period conservatively and I help obviously not even close. It's like the fabric of the club has been torn and I can't see a clear route back.
Choosing a "club DNA" is going to be a big help I think. I think it will help with this disjointed approach where we buy players that would suit the last manager or fail to buy the the most suitable target for whatever reason.
Having a clearly defined system would commit the football execs to operate with a target return and some form of risk management such as using Bayesian, VaR (value at risk).
The manager then takes the role on the basis of whether they feel they can succeed under those long-term strategies.
It should never be used in the context of real football as it is in here though, I distictly get the impression that some folks compile their wish list of players United should sign based on how well they fare in it!
I actually don't understand this viewpoint. I grew up watching the PL in the 00s and I always saw promoted teams come up, play absolute dogshit football and either hang on or bounce right back down into the Championship.
Teams coming up now are actually playing real football - there fans are actually getting to see them actually trying to compete on the pitch. This season the 3 promoted teams will go down - but the season before 2/3 survived, and this season Bournemouth and Fulham fans have celebrated their team scoring a goal as many times as Manchester United. Brentford are still here from the season before that and generally play good football.
There's so much talent in the league now, that generally even the bottom half teams are playing real football for the most part rather than scrapping for draws and will get multiple scalps a season.
Incorrect.
The fan base has been buying player shirts/clothing, buying tickets to games and generally spending money which ultimately ends up MCFC's coffers.
The fan base, due to MCFC's success, has been growing, which increases MCFC revenue.
So the fan base does have a big role.
Here's another way to look at it.
If MCFC brought in Pep G, and during his time here, the fan base did not increase, revenues stayed the same, and their social media presence remained constant (i.e. no increase) - do you think they'd have won the treble last season?
Odds are that Pep G would've left, many quality players who not have joined the club and the project would've collapsed.
Regarding MUFC, the fan base does have an effect on the direction of the club, but we've been so badly managed (from the top down) that no amount of fan criticism/support would've changed our fortunes.
The Glazers and Woodward wrecked the club.
Fans have zero say on anything. United could have burned the ground down in protest at the Glazer ownership and nothing would have changed.
United fans were protesting about the direction of the club when we were good in the mid 90s. For people on here to pin any blame on the matchgoing support for the clubs decline is absolutely insane.
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Do you have any idea how often Guardiola has moaned about the City fans? Their fanbase is still pathetically small considering the insane levels of success. Pep is staying because he's winning and because he's getting paid astronomical wages.
https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...ep-guardiola-for-comments-on-home-attendances
Would he leave? Never. Are city getting bigger? Slowly, maybe, but they're still absolutely dwarfed in the North of England by Liverpool and Manchester United (though their numbers -are- increasing)
Why would Pep care about their social media presence?The revenue from fans is microscopic compared to the revenue that sponsors bring in, obvioisly these two are linked in most club i.e. your sponsor will pay you more if you have more followers on social media sites and in specific countries for example but that doesn't apply to the bulk of City's sponsors which are themselves or in some way political (they added some Japanese brands when the UAE entered into a partnership with Japan on renewables/tech).
The satisfaction at HT yesterday (1-1 against a team who have 16 points in the league) was sad
Any other team in the league, other than perhaps Chelsea, would have been seething
I hope standards pick up
Any other team in the league, other than perhaps Chelsea, would have been seething
I hope standards pick up
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