The F1 Thread 2014 Season

Rosberg should have won , he wasn't ruthless enough.

When he got ahead of Hamilton he should have pushed him out wide as Hamilton did to him at the start.
Could be a long season this :(
 
ONe of the best races I have seen from recent memory, so many duels happening together. Hamilton deserved the win; when it comes to a duel between him and Rosberg, I expect Hamilton to come out on top 9 times out of 10, I think he is that much better a driver (controversial opinion, but one I have held since these two have started out). The Mercedes domination is a big joke, just by seeing the way they both pulled away after the SC left.

Which brings me to Maldonado. My least favourite driver since watching the sport, and someone I think should be kept away from F1 as far as possible, before he gets someone seriously hurt. The man has been in more incidents than I cna recall, and yet again this one was 100% him to blame. The term "spacial awareness" does not exist in his head. Seriously, get him out now.
 
ONe of the best races I have seen from recent memory, so many duels happening together. Hamilton deserved the win; when it comes to a duel between him and Rosberg, I expect Hamilton to come out on top 9 times out of 10, I think he is that much better a driver (controversial opinion, but one I have held since these two have started out). The Mercedes domination is a big joke, just by seeing the way they both pulled away after the SC left.

Which brings me to Maldonado. My least favourite driver since watching the sport, and someone I think should be kept away from F1 as far as possible, before he gets someone seriously hurt. The man has been in more incidents than I cna recall, and yet again this one was 100% him to blame. The term "spacial awareness" does not exist in his head. Seriously, get him out now.
I don't think that's controversial at all. Largely speaking, the only people who'd disagree are Raikkonen and Schumacher fanboys (for various reasons).
 
I don't think that's controversial at all. Largely speaking, the only people who'd disagree are Raikkonen and Schumacher fanboys (for various reasons).

Why would Raikonnen and Schumacher fanboys favor Rosoberg?

I think this is the first time Rosberg has the best car in F1. Let's see what he can do. I don't think Hamilton has developed much since he joined. Still reckon he will take this title though.
 
Raikkonen fanboys don't like the fact that Hamilton usurped their man as Senna's heir apparent.

Schumacher fanboys are desperate to paint Rosberg as a world class driver so that Schumi's indifferent run in the Merc doesn't seem so shit by comparison.
 
One of the best races for a while and certainly the best this season. Great racing from basically everyone apart from Maldonado (as per usual).

Rosberg and Hamilton's fight was great to watch. Hamilton is the better driver and I'd expect in a straight fight that he'd always win but Rosberg is quicker than most think. Shame the MB's are so far ahead of everyone else.
 
Raikkonen fanboys are disappointed Ferrari has gave him a shit car, Raikkonen was never going to win loads of world championships as he doesn't actually give much of a shit.
 
Raikkonen fanboys are disappointed Ferrari has gave him a shit car, Raikkonen was never going to win loads of world championships as he doesn't actually give much of a shit.
That's a separate point, but also true (if we're still talking in HUGE broad strokes).
 
I thought that but after this last race they have a massive job on their hands just to be within competing distance. Were Red Bull ever this far ahead? They probably were once after the mid-season break the season before last where Vettel came back and won all the races.

Add to that Mercedes are reliable as anyone and have done a lot of mileage so are in a good position to develop their package plus it isn't like there is lots of in season testing and isn't there a development freeze on a big part of the engines?

I'm now starting to think it will be close to the last part of the season where some others start competing and then next year when everyone will catch up. Plus Honda will be on the scene, will they be offering their engines to other teams at some point or is it exclusive?
 
It ain't all engine, I mean yes they are the works team so there are benefits to that but they are pounding the other Merc engine teams into the dirt too. It's doing them bit of a disservice to just say they have the best engine, I think they probably have the best chassis, low end and mid level downforce. Only really the Red Bull matches them in the high speed downforce as per Malaysia.

Supposedly they have a new nose that keeps failing crash tests but when its ready its another step forward for them.
 
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Just finished the race....and that is a proper race...so many great battles between teammates, no one giving an inch. Surprised Nico didn't or couldn't pass Hamilton.
 
A bit off topic from the race but any thoughts on the possible American F1 team coming into the series? Will the go with an American driver?
 
It's almost second per lap between mercedes and the rest. I have no idea how they will cover it.
They won't, unless Mercedes have a major development issue they're going to walk it. As long as they let the two drivers race for the WDC I don't think anyone can complain, they dominated the race but also made it entertaining to watch.
 
I genuinely could see Maldonado killing somebody one day.

He doesn't have a fecking clue.
 
That was not nearly as dominant as this year's Mercedes. In fact, on several occasions it was slower then the McLaren or the Ferrari.

It's only been 3 races, so to say they have been more dominant after that is jumping the gun a little; perhaps after another two convincing it could be argued that it beats RBR's '11 season. Vettel did win 6 of the 8 that year, and would have had one extra had he not bottled it in Canada; a lot of those races overall that year had similar big margins. There was always a big chance there would be one frontrunner this year if they had made huge progress, and Mercedes did just that. If and when the teams find their feet then this dominance will be over soon as the pack catches up
 
If anyone of you knows. Do Force India and Williams get the exact same engine as the factory car?

It's the exact same engine, the difference would be in the installation and packaging of it, which obviously being in the design process from Day 1 Mercedes as a team would benefit from.
 
McLaren 1988 with the MP4/4 probably.

The whole field is more strung out now though I think. In relative terms the MB is only as dominant as Vettel in 2011 or last year.

Hopefully it'll be like McLaren in 1998. Walking away with the first few but then someone got on terms (albeit that was Schumi and none of the chasing pack have his talent or Bridgestone giving him amazing tyres either)
 
It ain't all engine, I mean yes they are the works team so there are benefits to that but they are pounding the other Merc engine teams into the dirt too. It's doing them bit of a disservice to just say they have the best engine, I think they probably have the best chassis, low end and mid level downforce. Only really the Red Bull matches them in the high speed downforce as per Malaysia.

Supposedly they have a new nose that keeps failing crash tests but when its ready its another step forward for them.

True though I guess I don't count the rest as they aren't the big budget teams/fighting for the championship (Ferrari, Red Bull, Mercedes, McLaren) and why I also made those comments about McLaren before as they should be the number two team if they had a decent package.

Have to recognise their achievements though, they look to have done an outstanding job adapting to these regulations. If you took Mercedes out of it then I think you could say most teams would be competing with each other closely which shows how well they've done.
 
McLaren 1988 with the MP4/4 probably.

The whole field is more strung out now though I think. In relative terms the MB is only as dominant as Vettel in 2011 or last year.

Hopefully it'll be like McLaren in 1998. Walking away with the first few but then someone got on terms (albeit that was Schumi and none of the chasing pack have his talent or Bridgestone giving him amazing tyres either)

I actually think this factoid isn't well known enough. I still find it staggering that Schumacher got custom tyres that nobody else got anywhere near.
 
McLaren 1988 with the MP4/4 probably.

The whole field is more strung out now though I think. In relative terms the MB is only as dominant as Vettel in 2011 or last year.

Hopefully it'll be like McLaren in 1998. Walking away with the first few but then someone got on terms (albeit that was Schumi and none of the chasing pack have his talent or Bridgestone giving him amazing tyres either)

I am not sure what people mean when saying that Red Bull was dominant, even though you are careful to make the distinction between Vettel being dominant instead of his car being dominant, lots of people are way too eager to explain away Vettel success through the alleged superiority of his car. Mark Weber achieved the grand total of 1 race win out of 19 with that car, and collected around the same number of points as Alonso, Hamilton and Button, in fact lower than Button. What we had in 2011, was Vettel being the better driver, or at the very least the Vettel/Red Bull combination being the best overall package. When I say a dominant car, I have in mind the Williams of the early and mid nineties, especially the FW14 version. In 1992, a driver like Patrese frequently outqualified and outpaced (often to a severe degree) Schumacher and Senna, in the end finishing ahead of them on the standings. It is that kind of dominance that the current Mercedes reminds me of, if not even more than that. Just have a look at the fastest lap times of the Grand Prix. Nearest car to the Mercedes was 2 seconds a lap slower.
 
I actually think this factoid isn't well known enough. I still find it staggering that Schumacher got custom tyres that nobody else got anywhere near.

This is the first time I hear something like this. Schumacher blew every single team mate he ever had out of the water in both qualifying and race pace. Suggesting that his supposedly custom made tyres made him look better than he was is preposterous.

Edit: Schumacher's Ferrari was on Goodyear's for the 1998 season.
 
This is the first time I hear something like this. Schumacher blew every single team mate he ever had out of the water in both qualifying and race pace. Suggesting that his supposedly custom made tyres made him look better than he was is preposterous.

"Supposedly"?

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/formula1/19998444
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2013/dec/29/michael-schumacher-retirement-speed
http://literalf1.com/2012/11/24/michael-schumacher-modern-f1-personified/
http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/michael-schumacher/

Schumacher had Bridgestone tyres that were made specifically for him. Nobody else -- not even his team-mate -- got to use them. Yet everybody else on Bridgestone had the same tyres.

Also, please point out where I said that it made him look significantly better than he was? You're reading something into my post that's not there. I'm simply saying that it's funny how no-one remembers that.

That said, having custom-made tyres is going to have helped him be better than the rest. Whether that help was significant is unknown, and I think it's fair to say that Schumacher probably would have shown his class anyway - he was the most talented driver on the grid regardless. But it's a factor that has to be considered.

Edit: Schumacher's Ferrari was on Goodyear's for the 1998 season.

I'm not entirely sure what relevance this has? Schumacher didn't win the title in the 1998 season. Also, at no point did I say Schumacher had custom-made Bridgestone tyres throughout his whole career.
 
Schumacher used to do crazy amounts of laps around Ferrari's Fiorano Test track too when F1 testing was unregulated.

I mean nobody is doubting how good Schumacher was but for a decent spell there he had everything going for him, best car, unlimited testing, custom tyres, soft teammate, FIA support.
 
Schumacher used to do crazy amounts of laps around Ferrari's Fiorano Test track too when F1 testing was unregulated.

I mean nobody is doubting how good Schumacher was but for a decent spell there he had everything going for him, best car, unlimited testing, custom tyres, soft teammate, FIA support.

Alesi, Berger, Prost, Mansell, Masa, Barrichello, Alonso, Kimi, Alboretto etc have all driven for Ferrari, with its many alleged advantages. You can add up all their victories for Ferrari, and they will fall short of Schumi.

What you claim there about Schumacher, can also be said about drivers like Senna and Prost. And unlike those two, only Schumi made a move from a winning combination to a losing one. He could have very easily engineered a move to Williams in 1996 and be even more dominant than during 1994 and 1995, but chose instead to move to the extremely problematic Ferrari.

I can also refer you to his early career, with the mighty Benetton. He routinely left his team-mates around a minute behind (Patrese, Verstappen, Piquet senior, Herbert, Irvine) He has competing against Senna, Prost, Mansell who all had better cars than he did. Schumacher was the last driver to win with a manual gearbox, and had to race without TC from late 1991 to late 1993. The Ferrari between 1996 and the end of 1998 was quite atrocious in terms of pace and reliability, yet Schumacher achieved 14 victories between those years and came very close to winning the title in both 1997 and 1998.

I can provide all the evidence of how fast he was throughout the nineties (the peak of his career, even if it yielded much less success than his late Ferrari years) but just as a slight token of his raw pace and genius witness these moments from Brazilian GP against Senna in the Williams-Renault. Ayrton Senna and everyone in F1 were in shocked disbelief to find out that Schumi was blowing the great Ayrton away with the relatively modest Benetton. Senna's shock was such, that he became convinced that the Benetton was still somehow using TC, and asked of Frank Williams to launch an official appeal, something which the Williams team rejected. Senna was a lap ahead of the 2nd Benetton of Verstapen, yet he was being thoroughly outpaced by a young Michael Schumacher:







Another thing that any Schumi naysayer may wish to consider, is that Schumacher, just like the great Senna himself excelled exactly in the same conditions and race tracks: Spa, Monaco, Hungaroring, wet conditions. Schumacher was unlucky that during the nineties, the street circuits were largely taken off the F1 calendar. Senna not only had Monaco, but Dallas, Pheonix, Detroit.
 
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"Supposedly"?

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/formula1/19998444
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2013/dec/29/michael-schumacher-retirement-speed
http://literalf1.com/2012/11/24/michael-schumacher-modern-f1-personified/
http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/michael-schumacher/

Schumacher had Bridgestone tyres that were made specifically for him. Nobody else -- not even his team-mate -- got to use them. Yet everybody else on Bridgestone had the same tyres.

Also, please point out where I said that it made him look significantly better than he was? You're reading something into my post that's not there. I'm simply saying that it's funny how no-one remembers that.

That said, having custom-made tyres is going to have helped him be better than the rest. Whether that help was significant is unknown, and I think it's fair to say that Schumacher probably would have shown his class anyway - he was the most talented driver on the grid regardless. But it's a factor that has to be considered.



I'm not entirely sure what relevance this has? Schumacher didn't win the title in the 1998 season. Also, at no point did I say Schumacher had custom-made Bridgestone tyres throughout his whole career.

I went through all four of those articles, not one of them is citing a primary source for the bespoke tyres of Schumacher. All four of them deal with Schumacher in terms of popularity and the like. People get extremely opinionated about their favourite F1 drivers, but I prefer to look at cold hard facts. Like how a driver performed in the rain, what were his achievements relative to his team-mates, what other drivers achieved with the same manufacturer/team and so on and so on... I have nothing against Ayrton Senna, but I feel that he gets by far the most positive treatment by fans/pundits due to his more charismatic personality in relation to Schumi or Prost, and of course due to his tragic death. But if one looks closer at reality, then very interesting things emerge.
 
We did say nobody is doubting Schumachers talents did we not? The period in question I was talking about was the 2000-2004 years, F1 at that point was a free run for Schumacher to absolutely crush the opposition.

Alesi, Berger, Prost, Mansell, Masa, Barrichello, Alonso, Kimi, Alboretto etc have all driven for Ferrari, with its many alleged advantages. You can add up all their victories for Ferrari, and they will fall short of Schumi.

If you compares his win totals to anyone from any era they will fall short, Schumacher built Ferrari back to the top of that there is no doubt, its a massive achievement. Alboretto, Alesi, Berger, Prost, Mansell all were way before Ferrari got its shit together though and Alonso and Kimi came post regulated testing if we are going to be pedantic about it.

Barrichello was very much the Mark Webber of teammates, on his day he would challenge but for the majority of the season its a B talent driver backing up an A* talent. That's the one thing I wish Schumacher had dealt with in his prime, go head to head at Ferrari with a talent atleast comparable to himself which to be fair in the early 00's I'm not sure anyone was up for other than perhaps Kimi from 2002 onwards.
 
We did say nobody is doubting Schumachers talents did we not? The period in question I was talking about was the 2000-2004 years, F1 at that point was a free run for Schumacher to absolutely crush the opposition.



If you compares his win totals to anyone from any era they will fall short, Schumacher built Ferrari back to the top of that there is no doubt, its a massive achievement. Alboretto, Alesi, Berger, Prost, Mansell all were way before Ferrari got its shit together though and Alonso and Kimi came post regulated testing if we are going to be pedantic about it.

Barrichello was very much the Mark Webber of teammates, on his day he would challenge but for the majority of the season its a B talent driver backing up an A* talent. That's the one thing I wish Schumacher had dealt with in his prime, go head to head at Ferrari with a talent atleast comparable to himself which to be fair in the early 00's I'm not sure anyone was up for other than perhaps Kimi from 2002 onwards.

1. It is not Schumacher's fault that no one was nearly as good as him from 1994 to the mid 2000s. For all we know, he did not allow anyone else to shine. Others could beat him only with a severely faster car.

2. I cannot find any primary source to support this wild claim that Schumacher had bespoke tyres. In 2000, everyone was on Bridgestones. In 2001, Williams-BMW (anyone remembers how powerful that engine was?) switched to Michelins. In 2002, McLaren followed. Progressively, the Michelins got the upper hand, until the 2005 season when the Bridgestones became completely uncompetitive. Now, how could Bridgestone create a tyre that was allegedly wholly suited to Schumacher, and how this tyre would somehow suit Schumi and not any other of the Bridgestone drivers is wild speculation at very best. Now, would Bridgestone take Schumi's feedback more seriously to that of other drivers? I guess they would, as would be the case in the days of Prost/Senna or today with Vettel/Alonso. Engineers are more likely to take those drivers seriously rather than the rest of the field.

You say that Schumacher had weak team-mates, but cannot we say the exact same thing about Senna? Other than two years with Prost (who outscored him throughout the 2 year-period) who were Senna's great team-mates? Johnny Cessotto, Pierlugi Martini, Stefan Johannson, Elio de Angelis, Johnny Dumfries, Satoru Nakajima, Gerhard Berger, Michael Andretti and Damon Hill?

Now, do not misunderstand me, I am not doubting Senna for a millisecond here, I am just bringing him up since he is the one that most consider as the best of all time. For my money, it is almost impossible to choose between the 3 giants of Senna/Prost/Schumacher. Since 1980, these 3 drivers, stand head and shoulders above everyone else and then some. I am not yet sure where I would place Alonso/Vettel and maybe even Hamilton in relation to the all time greats.
 
Agreed not Schumachers fault that the talent level wasn't as high in his dominant spells, I'm also not saying he blocked any teammates, more of an observation and a wish more than anything. I think we are lucky to be witnessing such a talent rich grid in F1 right now.

I'm not sure the custom tyre speculation could ever be proven but Schumacher and Ferrari did have a very strong affliliation with Bridgestone. I seem to recall there being talk of bespoke tyres for Schumacher around the 2001 season, have to remember that back then tyre wars were happening so teams and certain drivers did get priority on development paths, its not an outrageous claim to say he might have got custom tyres, especially when reputable sources are stating it as fact.
 
Agreed not Schumachers fault that the talent level wasn't as high in his dominant spells, I'm also not saying he blocked any teammates, more of an observation and a wish more than anything. I think we are lucky to be witnessing such a talent rich grid in F1 right now.

I'm not sure the custom tyre speculation could ever be proven but Schumacher and Ferrari did have a very strong affliliation with Bridgestone. I seem to recall there being talk of bespoke tyres for Schumacher around the 2001 season, have to remember that back then tyre wars were happening so teams and certain drivers did get priority on development paths, its not an outrageous claim to say he might have got custom tyres, especially when reputable sources are stating it as fact.

I did a brief search on the internet right now, and all I could find was that Max Mosley made such claims by saying that Ferrari had tyres that others were not allowed to look at as if that proves anything. F1 teams have been secretive since forever, it's part of the sport. IMO, Schumacher's reputation suffers from him being active in a period when F1 was inherently less spectacular then other eras, with more boring racing tracks and less overtaking. In the 1980s, especially the early 1980s, F1 was total carnage with drivers winning from the back of the grid (John Watson in the US GP comes to mind) much more overtaking, and more variation in the number of winners. Senna and Prost reputations benefited from fighting each other, Schumacher did not have someone like that, that much is certainly true. I think that if Senna did not have his fatal accident, then Schumacher would not have made the risky switch to Ferrari, he did that because he knew that no other driver could come near him. But still, McLaren came up with excellent cars in that period and gave Schumacher more competition that he could have anticipated (initially at least) For me, Schumi's best driving came exactly in that period when his Ferrari was vastly inferior to the Williams and then to the McLarens, hell, on some occasions the Ferrari was slower than the Benettons etc...

The Williams and then McLaren switch to Michelin, came about imo, because by the year 2000, it became clear that the Ferrari/Schumi combo was becoming nigh unbeatable and they rightly felt that they had to try something new in search of their now lost advantage. Not because Bridgestone somehow made tyres suiting the Ferrari or Schumacher in particular. You see, this is constant theme in F1 throughout the eras. Whenever a driver/team find themselves at a disadvantage they start blaming the rules, the tyres, the engines, the FIA etc... Just witness at how Ferrari and Adrian Newey, Vettel are now complaining over the new rules. Luca di Medezzemolo says that F1 is now like taxi driving, Adrian Newey is saying that the new rules have not been properly thought out and Vettel is saying that the new engines sound like shit. Teams and drivers whining when they lose in F1 is a constant.