The F1 Thread 2009 Season

R_Nick said:
Then its not lucky is it, which is exactly the point he was making. There was no bias in his point, nor was he wrong. So what exactly is your argument?

Jenson had a big lead because he did a better job than everybody else, simple really.
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The argument is, though, that the "better job" was made very easy by his far superior car. So whilst he did do a "better job" because he got those wins and no one else did, that was owing a huge part to the fact his car was simply far, far superior to the competition. The only person he really was racing was his teammate (who, to be fair, he did beat).
 
You make it sound like he just sits there and presses the 'go' button.

We're not going to agree here, and I can't be arsed going round and round about it.
 
And beat convincingly I might add, during his 6 wins only 1 race Jenson really had to work for and that was Spain.

I think its plain to see that Button has gone off the boil abit, and Barrichello is getting better results but Valencia aside he hasnt been anywhere near Buttons level in his 6 wins, if Button just kick starts his season abit he will take care of Barrichello quite easily just like he has the past 3 seasons, 2008 aside.
 
Thank you Nick, saved me having to answer to that cretin Swerny who was purely on a wind up by the looks of it

CD, I fundamentally disagree with your assertion that it's 'all about the car'. Obviously it's very important, but you still have to do the job with it. Michael Schumacher is the ultimate example of how you don't need the best car to win races. He's not an all time great because he drove the best car around the front of the grid his entire career. Nick is right you do make it sound like the driver just pushes a button and puts the kettle on. It's a million miles from reality, especially now they've scrapped driver aids
 
This whole debate about car vs driver is why I don't rate F1 that much as a sport. If they want to find out the best driver why don't they all drive the same car?

The team aspect of F1 is hardly a sporting contest, it's essentially who has the best engineers.
 
Psmith said:
This whole debate about car vs driver is why I don't rate F1 that much as a sport. If they want to find out the best driver why don't they all drive the same car?

The team aspect of F1 is hardly a sporting contest, it's essentially who has the best engineers.
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Hadn't looked in here since last night. If you want to watch drivers all in the same cars then watch a spec series, but if you think engineers play no part in these series then you are delusional.
 
Psmith said:
This whole debate about car vs driver is why I don't rate F1 that much as a sport. If they want to find out the best driver why don't they all drive the same car?

The team aspect of F1 is hardly a sporting contest, it's essentially who has the best engineers.
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Go and watch A1 GP then PSmith

And when you're bored and want to come back to the pinnacle of racing, watch F1 again
 
More on the Singapore 'fixing' conspiracy investigation thing:

Renault warned of serious consequences

By Jonathan Noble Tuesday, September 1st 2009, 07:35 GMT


Formula 1 supremo Bernie Ecclestone has warned that there could be 'serious' consequences for both Nelson Piquet and Renault if an investigation into race-fixing at last year's Singapore Grand Prix uncovers anything suspicious.

The FIA is currently looking into claims, which emerged during last weekend's race weekend in Belgium, that Piquet may have been asked to crash deliberately in Singapore last year to help team-mate Fernando Alonso win.

The nature of the claims, or who has provided them, has not been revealed, and the FIA has only confirmed that it is looking into 'events' at a previous world championship race.

However, Ecclestone has confirmed that the incident being looked at is Singapore - and says he and the governing body is taking the matter seriously.

"The FIA has launched a thorough investigation into the allegations about Nelson," Ecclestone said. "I do not know if they are true or not.

"But if they are true then I would have thought Nelson was in just as much trouble. If I tell you to go and rob a bank and you get caught you can't say, 'Well Bernie told me to.'

"It all seems very strange to me and I do not know the truth."

Should the FIA find any evidence of foul play then it would most likely call a meeting of its World Motor Sport Council to discuss the matter. If the WMSC finds Renault guilty, then punishments range from a reprimand through to fines, race bans and even exclusion from the world championship.

On the back of the recent 'Bloodgate' controversy that has dogged rugby, Ecclestone said that FIA would come down hard on any guilty party.

"If the investigation finds out that that is what happened then I think there is going to be a lot of trouble," he said. "You hear of these things happening with jockeys and in football and it has led to all sorts of trouble, hasn't it?

"If it is true then it is a very serious situation. But it could just be a rumour and Nelson is just annoyed that he has been fired.

"But it is not good for the sport. People seem to be spending money betting on F1, which is good, but they will not want to do that if they think something is wrong with the result."

Ecclestone also fears that Renault could pull out of F1 on the back of the investigation - joining Honda and BMW in exiting the sport in the space of less than 12 months.

He told The Times: "This is not the sort of thing we need at the moment. I think it will p*** off Renault for a start. Them leaving the sport is a danger, obviously. I mean, I hope that it isn't like that, but it's the sort of thing that might happen."

The departure of Renault from F1 would not only hit the Enstone-based team, but would also hurt Williams, which is close to signing a customer-engine deal with the French car manufacturer.

Renault has so far not commented on the situation.
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autosport.com - F1 News: Renault warned of serious consequences

Controversy is never far away with F1 eh? Still can't see this being true though.
 
R_Nick said:
Fastest laps indicate which car is fastest at optimal conditions, believe it or not a car is not at the optimal condition for the track at every point over a weekend, which is why fastest laps are set at different points in a race for different people.

Raikkonen had well publicised issues with tyre temperatures and this led to a car with a tendency to understeer which clashed with his driving style. He was always stuck low down in qualifying due to not being able to get sufficient heat into the tyres during a qualifying run, and this put him out of sync during the race.

Once running in the race the tyres start to bring to car towards him when the fronts get up to a better temp and low and behold he starts to put in faster and faster laps. In spite of what some narrow minded idiots might try and tell you, this was not because he 'suddenly woke up and made an effort', it was issues with the car, something backed up by Ferrari and Schumacher on a few occasions, they took a wrong turn with development and it took them a long time to get it back.

Fastest lap = fastest raw pace. It just doesn't mean they'll do it lap after lap.
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This is a exceptionally good post in an otherwise disappointing thread with regards to quality. The lack of quality can obviously be explained by two things a) Brad has too many posts b) quality posters like myself and you do not contribute enough.
 
Giancarlo Fisichella has been confirmed as a Ferrari driver until the end of the 2009 season, with the option of a reserve drive for the 2010 season. Felipe Massa will not return to drive his Ferrari this year, with his efforts concentrated on gaining full fitness for next season.

So in other words, Ferrari have kicked Badoer out the door :D
 
Fair enough

Wow what a debut for your new team, driving a Ferrari at Monza! Talk about pressure

There's just no way they could have let Badoer trundle around the back of the grid. I swear we'd have seen stuff being thrown on the track
 
Sensible decision in the end by both Force India to release him and Ferrari to get a proper driver in before the season is over, they are going to have a decent run in scrap with McLaren.

Best of luck to Fisi.
 
The conspirators could say that Fisichella only stayed 2nd in Spa to ensure he got a drive with Ferrari for Monza :lol:
 
F-Red said:
The idiots could say that Fisichella only stayed 2nd in Spa to ensure he got a drive with Ferrari for Monza :lol:
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Fixed that for you ;)

I'd forgotten there was a two week break and came into work today looking forward to watching the practice sessions on the bbc website :(
 
Brad said:
Fair enough

Wow what a debut for your new team, driving a Ferrari at Monza! Talk about pressure

There's just no way they could have let Badoer trundle around the back of the grid. I swear we'd have seen stuff being thrown on the track
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that could have made for a more entertaining race though?
 
so mclaren spygate on ferrari, schumi's aborted return, a ton of new regulations, topsey turvey grid, teams pulling out, threats of a breakaway series, renault accused of getting a driver to deliberatley crash...

does anybody else think that if the racing had been half as interesting as the offfiled dtuff for the last year that the sport would be looking a lot healthier?
 
EZee said:
does anybody else think that if the racing had been half as interesting as the offfiled dtuff for the last year that the sport would be looking a lot healthier?
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F1 has had problems over the years & it will in future years. Regardless, it's healthy & still continues to grow, especially with the introduction of the new teams next season.
 
Santander to announce Ferrari deal

Ferrari will announce its sponsorship deal with Spanish banking giants Santander at Monza on Thursday, confirming a deal that was first revealed by AUTOSPORT in July last year.

Ferrari is to hold a press conference ahead of the Italian Grand Prix with Ferrari president Luca di Montezemolo and the president of the Bank of Santander, Emilio Botin.

The Santander alliance comes amid continued speculation that Spaniard Fernando Alonso is also on his way to Ferrari, although it is not known if an announcement about the Maranello team's 2010 driver plans will be made at Monza this weekend.

Ferrari has already stated that it is waiting for Felipe Massa to be fully fit for the start of next season, and it has a contract with Kimi Raikkonen too - although there is a chance this could be bought out.

Santander entered Formula 1 in 2007 with the McLaren team, on the back of its signing of Alonso, and its contract with the Woking-based team runs until the end of this year.
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autosport.com - F1 News: Santander to announce Ferrari deal

I really hope this doesn't signify Kimi's departure from Ferrari.
 
To be fair there were rumours about Alonso going to Ferrari in 2007, rumours don't always turn out to be true.
 
Monza is usually when Ferrari announce drivers, announcing Alonso wouldn't be a big surprise or have any real significance on this years results hence I think they might do it tomorrow.

Other rumours of Mercedes buying into Brawn, not sure they are wholly true but hedging their bets is pretty sensible.
 
They'd be pretty daft to make any announcements on driver line ups this early - nobody knows for sure how Massa's recovery is going to pan out.
 
Race-day meeting key to Renault case

By Jonathan Noble and Michele Lostia
Wednesday, September 9th 2009, 16:20 GMT

A meeting between Nelson Piquet, Flavio Briatore and Pat Symonds hours before last year's Singapore Grand Prix is central to the race fixing allegations surrounding the Renault team, AUTOSPORT has learned.

With the FIA's World Motor Sport Council due to meet on September 21 for Renault to answer charges that the team caused a deliberate crash in Singapore last year to help Fernando Alonso win, sources have confirmed for the first time background details of the case.

AUTOSPORT understands that key to what happened in the race is the discussion that took place in one of Renault's offices at the Singapore track on the Sunday, where race tactics were discussed between Piquet, team principal Briatore and director of engineering Symonds.

Sources claim that in evidence submitted to the FIA by Nelson Piquet, the Brazilian driver says he was asked by Briatore and Symonds to crash deliberately early in the race so as to help Alonso win.

Piquet says that he agreed to do so because he felt uncomfortable about his situation at the team, with Renault having not renewed his contract for 2009 at that time - and Briatore was stalling on making a firm commitment. Piquet suggests that he only went ahead and caused the accident because he felt he would be rewarded for his actions.

In his evidence, Piquet claims that he was taken aside by Symonds after the first meeting and instructured that he should crash on lap 13 or 14, shortly after Alonso's scheduled first stop, at Turn 17.

The reason this part of the track was singled out was because there were no cranes present there to lift the car away, so any accident would virtually guarantee a safety car.

Piquet's claims have, however, been denied by both Briatore and Symonds in documents that are believed to have been submitted with the FIA. Although they confirm that the meeting between the three of them took place, both suggest that it was Piquet's own suggestion to cause an accident.

Sources claim that the Singapore race-fix matter came to light on July 26 - the day of Piquet's last race for Renault in Hungary - when his father Nelson contacted FIA president Max Mosley to make him aware of what had happened.

Piquet Jr. then visited the FIA's headquarters in Paris on July 30 to present a statement to FIA representatives, believed to be stewards' advisor Alan Donnelly, and external investigators from the Quest agency.

Following Piquet's testimony, the three stewards from the Singapore Grand Prix, plus two external investigators from Quest, were flown to the Belgian Grand Prix to conduct interviews with Renault representatives.

A report in Italian magazine Autosprint also suggests that telemetry data from Piquet's car has emerged as another reason why the matter has gone to the WMSC.

At Turn 17 where Piquet crashed, normally the rear wheels of the Renault would lose grip on the exit - requiring the driver to ease off the throttle briefly. However, on the lap he crashed, Piquet kept accelerating even though the rear wheels had lost grip.

Briatore is reported to have claimed that he was: "a victim of extortion by the Piquet family.

"I confirm the meeting with Piquet on Sunday morning, but nothing like that was ever talked about. I also remember that Piquet at Singapore was in a very fragile state of mind. Besides that, there are the audio recordings where I express disappointment when I see on the screens that Piquet had crashed."

Symonds is also reported as saying: "It's true, during the Sunday meeting with Piquet the issue of deliberately causing a SC deployment came up, but it was proposed by Piquet himself. It was just a conversation."

Renault has said it will not comment on the matter officially before the WMSC hearing later this month.
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autosport.com - F1 News: Race-day meeting key to Renault case

Why would Piquet suggest it himself? Sounds very dodgy all this!
 
Why would Ferrari get rid of Kimi? I thought he was one of the best drivers out there, better than hamilton anyways.


And if this Renault thing is true ill be shocked.. Serious allegations..
 
I was very sceptical of the Renault thing at first, but with the quotes Autosport are attributing to Pat Symonds I'm finding it hard to remain sure!!

As for Kimi, he's been my favourite driver for years now and I think he's the fastest guy out there in terms of raw pace, really hope they keep him on.
 
R_Nick said:
Why would Piquet suggest it himself?
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Presumably he's really really fecked off with the way he's been treated by them, senses he's had his opportunity in F1 now and other teams might not look at him, and doesn't mind going down with Renault!

He's a fearless bastard if he did crash on purpose. He's still travelling at some speed and slamming it sideways into a concrete wall there
 
Brad said:
Presumably he's really really fecked off with the way he's been treated by them, senses he's had his opportunity in F1 now and other teams might not look at him, and doesn't mind going down with Renault!

He's a fearless bastard if he did crash on purpose. He's still travelling at some speed and slamming it sideways into a concrete wall there
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I guess he may be just trying to take them down, but like you say if he did crash on purpose then he'd bloody mental!!

Rooney1987 said:
I don't agree with that not even close to Lewis right now maybe in Kimi's Mclaren days he was close but not now.
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To suggest that he is 'not even close to Lewis' is just plain stupid to be frank.
 
Rooney1987 said:
I don't agree with that not even close to Lewis right now maybe in Kimi's Mclaren days he was close but not now.
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When he's fecked, 'like at the moment' he's the fastest driver on the grid. Hamilton 'like young Schumacher' still has a few years of growing up before he's the best in f1. The pace is exceptional, but the racing brain isn't at its peak.

I think Kimi has a similar mentality to Ronaldo in terms of criticism, especially now that he's got that title. Its not by coincidence that since he's been put under the spotlight about his position, he's driven the car as hard as he ever has. Although he's very subtle about it, he still has pride and he won't let that wain. In any of the past couple of years, he'd be leading the title with the way he's been driving, its just that the Ferrari is not a title contending car this year.

He's not driven poorly at all really this year. In fact I'd say 'when together' that he had the edge on Massa on most circuits bar probably Germany and Turkey, but due to an average start to the season for Ferrari, he wasn't able to put the points on the board to show how well he was driving.
 
R_Nick said:
To suggest that he is 'not even close to Lewis' is just plain stupid to be frank.
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Kimi has always one of my favourite drivers but then it comes to driving talent I don't think he is as good as Lewis ok maybe 'not even close to Lewis' is the worng thing to say but thats my opinion. I did say at the moment rigth now he is not close to Lewis there is a reason Ferrari will be droping him for Alonso next year and not Massa I think he is losing some of his passion but as I said in his Mclaren days he ws as good as most.
 
I'm sorry but the fact that you have even mentioned his passion is laughable, motivation is the fall back position for people to take a pop at Kimi when they don't really have much to back up their opinions. On what basis are you suggesting that he doesn't have the passion/motivation?

He has been in scintillating form recently, something even that fool Eddie Jordon has been forced to admit, he has been driving fantastically, and "right now" he is arguably doing the best job of anybody. Lewis is a great driver, of course he is, but at the moment I still think Kimi and Alonso are a shade above him.
 
How is it laughable I just think he is losing his passion to drive in F1 there have been time were he just looks bored seeing him doing all these rally car races I think he want to do something else.

Again I can't agree he is not above Hamilton never mind next to Alonso. In think in 08 when he has the same car as Massa but it was Massa fighting with Lewis for the title. If he is up there with ALonso why is he getting dropped for Alonso and not Massa.
 
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