The F1 Thread 2008 Season

Brad said:
I've been doing my sums. I've never liked this current points system, I don't think it rewards the race winner enough. It favours reliable also rans instead, which isn't the point of racing. Here are the current standings:

Hamilton.......70
Massa..........64
Raikkonen.....57
Kubica..........55
Kovaleinen....43
Heidfeld........41
Trulli............26
Alonso.........18
Webber........18
Glock...........15
Piquet..........13
Barrichello.....11
Rosberg.........9
Vettal...........9
Nakajima.......8
Coulthard......6
Button..........3
Bourdais........2

I thought there was nothing wrong with the previous system, 10 points for victory, 6 for second, 4-1 for the positions down to 6th place. This is what this season would look like then:

Hamilton........60
Massa...........56
Raikkonen......44
Kubica...........38
Kovaleinen......28
Heidfeld.........27
Trulli.............11
Alonso ..........8
Glock.............9
Piquet........... 7
Webber..........6
Barrichello.......5
Rosberg..........4
Coulthard........4
Vettal............3
Nakajima........1
Button...........1

Not an awful lot of positional movement to be fair. But there's a large change to the championship situation. Under the current system, Massa could win the next 4 races, and still only be level with Hamilton. Raikkonen could win every race left this season, but if Hamilton always comes second, Hamilton becomes champions. And I don't like that, its rewarding the wrong thing for me. Under the old system, in one race time with Massa winning and Hamilton coming 2nd, the championship could be tied

The balance is weighted too far in favour of reliability over race winning

I can see the smaller teams want a crack at amassing points, so I'd propose a compramise for next season. 10 points for a win, then 7 down to 1 for the finishers down to 8th place. It'd only be a small adjustment to the scoring of the 2nd place runner, but it just corrects the balance in the right direction, and should keep all the teams happy
Click to expand...

They brought that in to try and stop Ferrari & Schumacher didn't they. He spoke out against it in the following season saying the same. He was only a few points ahead but had won like 4 more races if I remember right.

Its obvious but they want to keep it like that. It keeps it tighter and I assume the authorities would rather see cars aiming for reliability rather than pure speed, hence all the budget cuts, stopping engine development, having to use an engine over two races etc.

EDIT: It would be even more interesting if you added number of race wins to that for each driver to show the effects of the system more.
 
ZIDANE said:
They brought that in to try and stop Ferrari & Schumacher didn't they. He spoke out against it in the following season saying the same. He was only a few points ahead but had won like 4 more races if I remember right.

Its obvious but they want to keep it like that. It keeps it tighter and I assume the authorities would rather see cars aiming for reliability rather than pure speed, hence all the budget cuts, stopping engine development, having to use an engine over two races etc.

EDIT: It would be even more interesting if you added number of race wins to that for each driver to show the effects of the system more.
Click to expand...

It's all pretty even actually, Hamilton and Massa have 4 victories each, Raikkonen has two. Kubica and Raikkonen are the only other race winners this season. Which highlights how silly the current system is, in 4 races time Massa could have twice as many race victories than Hamilton, and yet still only be two points ahead
 
Brad said:
Erm, Hamilton got out ahead of Alonso there?! It's Vettal at fault for coming out alongside. Need I remind you what engine powers the Torro Rosso incidently? :smirk:

Fact is today, the stewards spotted the incident, and investigated it, questioning whether it was an 'unfair release' or not. And its quite blatantly obvious it was unsafe. The odd and unusual thing is that the decision was deferred until after the race, and eventually Massa has been fined 10,000Euro's. Which essentially now means any car can release whenever they like in the pit lane, irrespective of cars coming down, and they will not recieve racing sanction. Unless it's McClaren next time, where we can almost certainly guarentee they'll be treated differently...
Click to expand...

Lol so torro rosso using Ferrari engines is the reason that wasn't called up or punished?

Really man, when did you start watching F1? when Hamilton started featuring in it?

theres been countless times in the past when cars have been released and going side by side down the pitlane.Its why one of the ITV crew(not sure which) coined up the phrase "its now a drag race down the pit lane"

yet with all of these, nothings ever been mentioned of it.But when it comes down to Hamilton stands to gain from Itv try and drum up a frenzy over it.

I've no idea why they've started to investigate it now with Massa, maybe they want to crack down on it who knows but if they we're to take any prior incidents Massa shouldn't have gotten any punishment for it and you know it.

Incidentally the vid i posted has nothing to do with Hamilton i didn't even notice him feature there but nice of you to notice....the point was with Vettel and Alonso, and nothing, not even and investigation came from that
 
Brad said:
It's all pretty even actually, Hamilton and Massa have 4 victories each, Raikkonen has two. Kubica and Raikkonen are the only other race winners this season. Which highlights how silly the current system is, in 4 races time Massa could have twice as many race victories than Hamilton, and yet still only be two points ahead
Click to expand...

I'm not a fan of this points system, makes it too easy to settle for second and as an F1 fan you don't want drivers settling for positions so easily.

Having said that its not only the points system that makes drivers less enthusiastic about getting ahead of the guy in front.take the 2 race engine rule for instance, drivers automatically want to save their engine.

Its supposed to save costs really but doesn't work for me.

I loved the days when teams had qualifying engines and could rev them as high as they wanted:smirk:

I'm a little drunk so not sure how much sense i'm making
 
Stemmy said:
Lol so torro rosso using Ferrari engines is the reason that wasn't called up or punished?

Really man, when did you start watching F1? when Hamilton started featuring in it?

theres been countless times in the past when cars have been released and going side by side down the pitlane.Its why one of the ITV crew(not sure which) coined up the phrase "its now a drag race down the pit lane"

yet with all of these, nothings ever been mentioned of it.But when it comes down to Hamilton stands to gain from Itv try and drum up a frenzy over it.

I've no idea why they've started to investigate it now with Massa, maybe they want to crack down on it who knows but if they we're to take any prior incidents Massa shouldn't have gotten any punishment for it and you know it.

Incidentally the vid i posted has nothing to do with Hamilton i didn't even notice him feature there but nice of you to notice....the point was with Vettel and Alonso, and nothing, not even and investigation came from that
Click to expand...

I've been watching Formula 1 since the late 80's, I'm not sure where you get any other impression from. Perhaps a desperate longing to dismiss me as some know-nothing newcomer, because you know there's much validity to the claims of Ferrari favourment from the FIA of which I speak

The Germany incident should have been punished too, I'm not entirely sure why it wasn't. But did they actually investigate it like they did today? Just because they got it wrong in Germany, doesn't mean they got it right today

FIA Sporting Regulations 2008:

23.1, i) It is the responsibility of the competitor to release his car after a pit stop only when it is safe to do so.

16.1) "Incident" means any occurrence or series of occurrences involving one or more drivers, or any action by any driver, which is reported to the stewards by the race director (or noted by the stewards and referred to the race director for investigation) which: ... - constituted a breach of these Sporting Regulations or the Code

16.3) The stewards may impose any one of three penalties on any driver involved in an Incident :
a) A drive-through penalty. The driver must enter the pit lane and re-join the race without stopping ;
b) A ten second time penalty. The driver must enter the pit lane, stop at his pit for at least ten seconds
and then re-join the race.
c) a drop of ten grid positions at the driver’s next Event.

Follow the chain of the regulations, and as I read it, they have not been followed. There was an incident on the track investigated by the stewards, which Massa has been found guilty of. It broke the sporting regulations, so one of the 3 sanctions listed above should have been applied. Yet it is referred to after the race instead? And a paltry fine issued, when a drive has been found guilty of an incident regarding the safety of his driving? I'm sorry, that's not right. But those who have followed F1 for long enough know this is the norm when it comes to the treatment of Ferrari

If you wish to look at the regulations yourself: http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/475632E46002BEDAC125744F004312F4/$FILE/F1.SPORTING.REGULATIONS.19-05-2008.pdf
 
Fair enough, apologies about insinuating your some Johnny come lately i was presuming a bit there.

But what was so dangerous about what happened between Massa and Sutil? Massa was released side by side with Sutil, then he backed off and let Sutil through first...heck even Sutil didn't make anything of it.

And why, all of a sudden as many previous side by side running down the pitlane has been ignored, that Massa should be punished and have his race win removed from him?

If they are going to crack down on this....then announce they are going to crack down on it because it goes on all the time and their is never anything mentioned of it.

Because if you we're to go on past incidents, no punishment should have come to Massa at all.

But really, quit with this FIA Ferrari bias because really, if the FIA we're biased towards Ferrari this incident wouldn't have even come under investigation in the first place
 
Brad said:
2 cars on collision course at 70 mph in a tight, congested, populated pit lane

There's your danger
Click to expand...


Its 50 mph

and side by side is not a collision course at all its side by side.

Now if Massa was going the wrong direction down the pit lane you might have a point but no it wasn't

Collision course? come off it...how is both going in the same direction a collision course?Massa didn't even impede Sutil in any way.
 
Stemmy said:
Its 50 mph

and side by side is not a collision course at all its side by side.

Now if Massa was going the wrong direction down the pit lane you might have a point but no it wasn't
Click to expand...

Apologies, yes its 50mph. Which is still a dangerous speed with pit mechanics stood yards away without protection between

And Massa is pulling out into a space occupied by Sutil. Look mate, Massa was found guilty of the offence, so your disagreeing with the law makers about what constitutes unsafe. It is unsafe to pull out from a pit stop while another car is occupying that space as it passes. The problem I have is the punishment for the offence, and the way the investigation was handled
 
Brad said:
Apologies, yes its 50mph. Which is still a dangerous speed with pit mechanics stood yards away without protection between

And Massa is pulling out into a space occupied by Sutil. Look mate, Massa was found guilty of the offence, so your disagreeing with the law makers about what constitutes unsafe. It is unsafe to pull out from a pit stop while another car is occupying that space as it passes. The problem I have is the punishment for the offence, and the way the investigation was handled
Click to expand...

Ah but thats where you are wrong...Massa didn't pull out to occupy a space where Sutil was, he didn't even impede Sutil since he was beside Sutil..he didn't pull out right in front of him nor block him.he was beside him

Of course you have a problem with the punishment, you'd rather Massa was given such a penalty so Hamilton could win the race which he so thoroughly didn't deserve to win.Just goes to show doesn't it?Massa never even impeded Sutil at all.

did you even see Sutils interview regarding the incident?I bet not, he didn't even complain about it nor did he even say he was impeded in any way by it at all...it was side by side for christ sake
 
Two contrasting views, I'm in the middle I think. One thing here is that previously a situation like this wasn't seen as anything that bad. It happens in races fairly often, often a lot worse. Things have changed though from season to season especially around a safety perspective.

Technically I would assume it to be an offence nowadays as two cars side by side in a pit lane would be. The mitigating factor to me would be that the original driver in the lane didn't have to brake harshly, swerve, or lose a place. Massa was alongside but slowed and slotted back in. As I said though, when looking at the rules and applying them literally an offence was committed as it was unsafe.

A punishment probably should have been handed out there and then. One thing though, I wouldn't want to see a driver being punished harshly, in this case Massa not winning the race, solely on that. Would be going way over the top to me. Plus a big precedent would have been set from this.
 
Stemmy said:
Ah but thats where you are wrong...Massa didn't pull out to occupy a space where Sutil was, he didn't even impede Sutil since he was beside Sutil..he didn't pull out right in front of him nor block him.he was beside him

Of course you have a problem with the punishment, you'd rather Massa was given such a penalty so Hamilton could win the race which he so thoroughly didn't deserve to win.Just goes to show doesn't it?Massa never even impeded Sutil at all.

did you even see Sutils interview regarding the incident?I bet not, he didn't even complain about it nor did he even say he was impeded in any way by it at all...it was side by side for christ sake
Click to expand...



You're telling me Sutil wasn't impeeded there? He had to hit the brakes and drive closer to the wall

Whatever your interpretation is, its irrespective. Your not allowed to do what Massa did there

23.1, i) It is the responsibility of the competitor to release his car after a pit stop only when it is safe to do so

That exit wasn't safe, and Massa was duely found guilty and punished. My problem is that it was postponed until after the race - why? I posted the rules as I read them, Massa was guilty of the incident, there should have been one of 3 racing punishments

Good for Massa, personally I'd like to see racing decided on the track. But given (what I consider to be) the overly harsh punishment of Hamilton already this season before Silverstone, I think its a bag of bullshit basically
 
Brad said:


You're telling me Sutil wasn't impeeded there? He had to hit the brakes and drive closer to the wall

Whatever your interpretation is, its irrespective. Your not allowed to do what Massa did there

23.1, i) It is the responsibility of the competitor to release his car after a pit stop only when it is safe to do so

That exit wasn't safe, and Massa was duely found guilty and punished. My problem is that it was postponed until after the race - why? I posted the rules as I read them, Massa was guilty of the incident, there should have been one of 3 racing punishments

Good for Massa, personally I'd like to see racing decided on the track. But given (what I consider to be) the overly harsh punishment of Hamilton already this season before Silverstone, I think its a bag of bullshit basically
Click to expand...


Sutil didn't have to hit the brakes at all


Yes i am telling you Sutil wasn't impeded there...did he have to stop? did Massa pull out in front of him that he had to break late? no he didn't...did Massa pull out right in front of the lane where Sutil was driving? no he didn't

Massa even slowed down to let Sutil through

Your not an F1 fan Brad unless it suits Hamiltons and McLaren's cause...get a grip...both drivers shrugged that off as nothing but since Itv tried to whip up a frenzy for Hamilton's cause over that you've jumped onto the bandwagon all guns blazing.

Where was your uproar for all the other occasions? completely missing i say....face facts things like that have been going on all along without anyone even batting an eyelid but as soon as you get a whiff of Hamilton gaining from it you scream bloody murder
 
Stemmy said:
Sutil didn't have to hit the brakes at all

Yes i am telling you Sutil wasn't impeded there...did he have to stop? did Massa pull out in front of him that he had to break late? no he didn't...did Massa pull out right in front of the lane where Sutil was driving? no he didn't

Massa even slowed down to let Sutil through

Your not an F1 fan Brad unless it suits Hamiltons and McLaren's cause...get a grip...both drivers shrugged that off as nothing but since Itv tried to whip up a frenzy for Hamilton's cause over that you've jumped onto the bandwagon all guns blazing.

Where was your uproar for all the other occasions? completely missing i say....face facts things like that have been going on all along without anyone even batting an eyelid but as soon as you get a whiff of Hamilton gaining from it you scream bloody murder
Click to expand...

I'm not an F1 fan? Is this the F1 equivalent of that thing I hate most, a 'top red' United debate?!

Mate, you keep going on about my bias, but your not fooling anyone which way your passions lay. You continue to try and pass the incident off as safe and fine, when its clear in the regulations, from the decision of the stewards, and bloody common sense that Massa was guilty of unsafely exiting after his pit stop. My quarrel is not with the correct decision, rather the process and the punishment, which from my reading of the rules should have been dealt with within the race itself, and been a minimum of a drive through penalty. That's not bias, thats from the rules and regulations I've posted, and the link provided for you to make your own interpretation
 
I've had a look at previous precedents, because I certainly remember teams being penalised with a racing penalty for this offence. Turns out there was one this very morning! Karun Chandhok in the GP2 race committed the same offence, released into another car in the pit lane, and he recieved a drive through penalty. Issued by the same stewards, at the same race circuit, on the same day!!!

Yeh yeh, this Ferrari treated differently thing is a load of nonsense mate :rolleyes:
 
Sorry I cant be bothered to post a longer message..

But Brad, your spot on in what your saying mate.
 
Brad said:
I've had a look at previous precedents, because I certainly remember teams being penalised with a racing penalty for this offence. Turns out there was one this very morning! Karun Chandhok in the GP2 race committed the same offence, released into another car in the pit lane, and he recieved a drive through penalty. Issued by the same stewards, at the same race circuit, on the same day!!!

Yeh yeh, this Ferrari treated differently thing is a load of nonsense mate :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

What penalty would you have liked to have seen Massa get?
 
Keane16 said:
What penalty would you have liked to have seen Massa get?
Click to expand...

Its not a question of liking; he should have recieved one of the three following penalties having been found guilty of an incident:

16.3) a) A drive-through penalty. The driver must enter the pit lane and re-join the race without stopping
b) A ten second time penalty. The driver must enter the pit lane, stop at his pit for at least ten seconds and then re-join the race
c) a drop of ten grid positions at the driver’s next Event

I'd have thought the most reasonable of those punishments would be the drive through penalty personally. Thats what the same stewards certainly thought in the GP2 race, but bottled it when it came to Ferrari. I'm all for advocating racing decided on the track, but if your going to have these regulations, and you're gunna to apply them to other teams involved in other incidents, then you need to apply the rules in the same manner
 
I reckon the penalty should be on the team, not the driver. Clearly, there's a fine line between them at times - and it doesn't apply to every scenario, but Massa was let out by the team, with no knowledge of what was behind or alongside him - and it had no effect on the race result. I don't expect he'll be putting his hand is his pockets in any event.
 
Keane16 said:
I reckon the penalty should be on the team, not the driver. Clearly, there's a fine line between them at times - and it doesn't apply to every scenario, but Massa was let out by the team, with no knowledge of what was behind or alongside him - and it had no effect on the race result. I don't expect he'll be putting his hand is his pockets in any event.
Click to expand...

I thought about this before. Possibly docking the team constructor points? Fining is okay but a little silly considering the amounts of money in F1. Then I stopped thinking that way because a teams driver is the main representative of the team and basically the sole output in the race. Its tricky.

Also not so sure whether a team would care as much as if they were punished rather than the driver on the day losing out. Like you said, no doubt he'll be putting his hands in his pockets...
 
lol hamilton goes off track, then raikenen spins, rain is pouring, 1 lap left, do they pit LOL
 
Oh man Kimi crashed out of the race with only 2 laps to go after leading for so long, Hamilton wins.

Ferrari always struggle in the rain.
 
One of the most entertaining last 5 laps i have seen in F1.

Gutted though that hamilton won it.

Also, end of championship hopes for Kimi, team will get behind Massa
 
That was mental, what a time for the rain to fall! Brilliant final laps from Hamilton, he rode his luck a bit, but he took advantage and registered victory. Only a two point gain in the end on Massa mind, such drama for so relatively little change!
 
:lol: hamilton trying to relive his moment of glory and heidfeld could look less interested

bloody gutted for raikkonen though, hamilton got the rub of the green today
 
Hamilton only lost 1st place to Kimi the second time, because he was avoiding the Williams car. Lucky break for Kimi that, but he drove like an old woman after that up until his crash. Delighted for Lewis, he deserved it.
 
fecking rain. I would've been a bloody millionaire if Kimi had won. Gutted. :(
 
That was quality, glad I only watched the last 5 laps as usual! :lol:
 
This is no fun, hamilton is now going to take driver championship fairly easily. :(
 
You must log in or register to reply here.